Premillennialism

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

One minor fault: the word, "will". 

I guess you'll have to take that up with Paul when you see him. The bullet points were excerpts from the verses you offered in your previous post. I was pointing out the modification in the language of the original posted verses, important points that serve to adjust our perceptions, or should.

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

According to the New Testament writers (all the ones I cited) Jesus is already stretching forth his sceptor from Zion and ruling in the midst of his enemies. This is a fundamental distinction between the premils' and all other Christians: the premils ignore the present-tense and pst-tense language of the New Testament. That neglect is the only way the future-millennial position can be asserted. 

No. Okay, for some perhaps. For me I do not. I make a distinction between what appears contradictory and seek to reconcile. So in that sense there is a problem to address. Yes, Jesus is ruling now and not only that but He is the creator of all things. Even the idea of sovereignty does not do justice to the Creator. But I get your point and I agree. 

 

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

 The audience affiliations also have to be ignored. Jesus told the Pharisees who were standing right in front of him they would see him sitting at God's right hand. The only way a 21st century group of Pharisees could ever see such a thing is to ignore the explicitly stated literal context of the passage and the actual words spoken. 

If we recall the story of the rich man and Lazarus we have precedent for the above even after temporal death. This is not a parable as the King doesn't designate it as such. If it were labeled as parable it could only be derived from silence. So the dead are dead physically but alive spiritually as we see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the rich man in torment, and both comfort and torment can see each other. 

So the Pharisees could be dead physically and still witness the prophecy fulfilled.

 

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

So while I am glad we have some agreement, the post shows even the effort at collaboration testifies to an eisegetic interpretation of the scriptures. 

Look at the last highlight; the bold-faced section. That verses states the conditions cited were already existent! The verse plainly states "THIS" age. It plainly states "THIS" age and the one to come. It plainly states THIS age in which Paul was writing AND the one to come. The rule  had already arrived. It was a condition contemporary to the first century believer. That is what the texts state. 

It didn't really arrive though did it? The King's reign is from forever to forever and He was the power in the universe from the start. Keeping that in mind then what arrived? Certainly we don't think Jesus only began to be King after the resurrection and ascension? 

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Therefore the fullness of the reign of Jesus is not yet in its complete form because he will remain enthroned at his Father's right hand as his Father's right hand on his Father's throne (because he is God) until his Father makes a footstool of his enemies - and it is only after they are all made footstools that anything will change. That is what the scriptures teach and all the various scriptures attendant to Christ's rule - both soteriologically and eschatologically - should be read and understood within the context of the many, many verses that plainly assert Christ's divinity and priestly kingship. He is God. He has always been God. He is King and he is not only a king or any king; he is King of all kings now and already and there has never been a single moment in which we call time when the divine King of all by who through whom, through whom, and for whom all was created has not ruled and ruled sovereignly. Not only is he the divine King of all kings but he is the priestly High Priest King by, through, and for which the entire paradigms of kings and priests were created and his priesthood and monarchy are far above all others so significantly that their is no comparison in degree or kind. 

Yes. You don't really have to say it over and over. We agree on this. 

The sticking point is, "Where is He?" He's not on earth ruling. We see nothing. 

In fact He says He isn't here but He's coming back.

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne."

If He isn't gone, how then does He come?

"Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”" Acts 1

Have we seen Him come back as He left? Anyone?

While Jesus rules over all things He himself said He was leaving and giving His servants admin duties.

"While the people were listening to this, Jesus proceeded to tell them a parable, because He was near Jerusalem and they thought the kingdom of God would appear imminently. 12So He said, “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingship and then return. 13Beforehand, he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.a ‘Conduct business with this until I return,’ he said."

Jesus contradicts the existence of His glorious reign on the earth at this time. He rules in the universe but in His sovereign will has left the earth to His servants. 

 

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

And failing to consider those facts when reading scripture leads to no end of bad thought, bad doctrine, and bad practice. 

Yes. All the facts are true. ALL of them. And they ALL must fit together. 

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

If you or anyone will simply go back and read the eschatological arguments through that very real context then a plethora of inconsistencies will be noted. If scripture is read with the presupposition of Christ's inherent divinity (and subsequent sovereignty) then an entirely different understanding of God's word will be had - one that precludes anyone other than God from having any power or influence but that which God gives them for His purpose(s) and His purpose alone. 

I haven't heard anyone argue against the above in bold. And to be sure this is exactly what God, Jesus Christ the King, has done. 

[Uriah]

I am now curious. Does anyone think THIS has already happened?

“The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign forever and ever.” NLT

“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” NKJV

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. Don't tell me; tell the poster claiming Israel is the co-reigning group. 

Shalom, Josheb and Selah7.

A "saint" is a "holy one"; therefore, it is not necessarily a "Christian." "Holy" is not the same thing as "Righteous." And, Israel has ALWAYS been holy, if not righteous!

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

I am now curious. Does anyone think THIS has already happened?

“The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign forever and ever.” NLT

“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” NKJV

Shalom, Uriah.

I, for one, KNOW this has NOT happened, yet. Anyone who thinks it has will be RUDELY AWAKENED to the fact!

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The pre-mil position keeps spreading the wrong gospel. They keep saying haSatan and the other powers are in charge and they also keep saying (and hiding behind) the false premise that the book of Revelation is all future.

Talk about Christians shooting themselves in the foot. Yeshua is REIGNING NOW.

Then they cite evil in the world - well no wonder, the believers are doing so very little about it and let it prevail. Self fulfilling prophesy!!

Pre-mil is a pernicious and false gospel.

Shalom, Justin Adams.

I'm premillennial, but I have the correct Gospel. It's the SAME GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM that Yeshua` first announced to Israel (that is, after His herald was put in prison).

And, it's NOT "the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ." That was later ADDED to the Gospel of the Kingdom! The Gospel of the Kingdom is found summed up in Isaiah 52:7.

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

So, besides God, who is you think is in charge? 

Shalom, Josheb.

Although this is addressed to Uriah, I'll answer for myself because of its importance in the understanding of Scripture.

God ALONE is in charge ... NOW. HOWEVER, He has made the point that all judgment will be exacted by His Son, Yeshua`. It's VERY IMPORTANT that you understand this because HE'S NOT HERE, YET!

John 5:1-29 (KJV)

1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue "Bethesda," having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. 5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him,

"Wilt thou be made whole?"

7 The impotent man answered him,

"Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me."

8 Jesus saith unto him,

"Rise, take up thy bed, and walk."

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured,

"It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed!" 

11 He answered them,

"He that made me whole, the same said unto me, 'Take up thy bed, and walk.'"

12 Then asked they him,

"What man is that which said unto thee, 'Take up thy bed, and walk'?"

13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him,

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (Revelation 20:5); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (Revelation 20:12-13).

 

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You do understand measuring time, space, history, the world by human sensibilities is a form of idolatry? Yes?

Not at all. GOD HIMSELF gave us these measurements! There's no evil or idolatry in them, except what a person brings with him!

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You understand the word "God" has meaning and that meaning - by definition - means there can be only one God and that God MUST always and everywhere by in command and control? Yes? 

If so, why then do you follow those who create eschatologies that ignore the presuppositional realities asserted by scripture?

Why does anyone accept the eschatologies that INVENT the "presuppositional realities," assuming they are "asserted by Scripture?" It's better to LISTEN to what the Messiah Yeshua`, the SON of God who know the Father, said about His Father, YHWH GOD!

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

There has NEVER been a time or place where God and His Son have not ruling. Any point in history may not look that way to those inside the picture frame but that is not a reasonable or rational basis for denying God's eternal sovereignty. The very verse stated plainly states the world has NOW become the kingdom of Christ. 

Sure there has. God's SON is not yet reigning! GOD HIMSELF is reigning and has always been reigning, but His Son is merely "seated beside Him," awaiting the time He will be sent back to earth WITH HIS KINGDOM! (Matthew 25:31.) It is THEN that He will be called "King!" Right now, He is the "CHRIST" - the "MESSIAH" - the One "ANOINTED TO BECOME KING!" If it can make sense to you, He is the "KING-ELECT!" (He is the "Elect BY GOD," that is.)

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I do not believe you God because the world still looks very messy; You cannot possibly be ruling this mess. This mess means you are not king of the kingdom here and now. I don't care what your word states; as far as I can tell from here on earth you're not King and the world has NOT now become the kingdom.

The rude awakening is for those who think like that ^^^^^ 

It looks very messy, because it IS very messy! Why do you think the Messiah is promised to return?! That will be HIS JOB!

One of the jobs of the King of Israel is to be its "Supreme Court Judge!" As His Kingdom grows and He subdues more of His enemies, He will be their Judge, too! He will put to right all things that are currently wrong!

By the end of the Millennium (which doesn't begin until He physically returns, btw), there will be no more of His enemies to subdue, and it will be THEN that He Judges EVERYONE who was evil. After the Second Death, He destroys "death" itself in the Lake of Fire, and gives His purified Kingdom to His Father. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) And, THAT'S where we pick up the narrative in Revelation 21:1.

[Riverwalker]

16 minutes ago, Josheb said:

God alone is in charge. Period. Always and everywhere. There is no place where His Son does not reign and rule, and that includes here on earth. When you guys start saying, "I don't see it,"

How many conditional statements do you see in the bible

IF you believe you will be saved

IF you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved

IF you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved

God in HIS sovereign wisdom gave us the choice to accept or reject his grace. With everyone having the same opportunity to be saved. And that is the point

God is taking people into eternity who CHOSE to be with Him

Choice.....it is all ours

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

God in HIS sovereign wisdom gave us the choice to accept or reject his grace. With everyone having the same opportunity to be saved. And that is the point

 

I see problems with these statements.

Please define 'opportunity' and how that plays out across time and space.

Over the centuries and across the globe?

Everyone having the same opportunity to be saved.

 

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Proof-texting. 

 

When we do not extricate verse 7 from all else the passage states we find a huge bunch of Messianic content expressly tied to the life, death, and resurrection of the Son. There is the redemption sans money, God himself would come speak to them saying, "Here I am," Jerusalem would be a wasteland and it would be restored, all the ends of the earth would see God's salvation (not just the Jews), God's servant's appearance would be marred, and much more. Jesus and the New Testament writers (Nearly all of whom were Jews themselves) speaking and writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit often referenced Isaiah and...... provided further revelation pertaining to hwat the prophet had said, revealing that which had been veiled, that which was nothing more than a foreshadowing. 

 

And, for the record: the gospel was NOT first announced to Israel and it was not first announced to Israel via Isaiah. Paul tells us the gospel was preached to Abraham long, long, long before God made the nation-state of Israel. The author of Hebrews tells us people as far back as Abel understood something about the promise of God found  in Christ. 

 

Even earlier than Abraham, the gospel was first preached to Adam and Eve!

Gen. 3:15 (KJV)

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Edited May 31, 2021 by David1701

[Alive]

The entire bible is about Jesus Christ. when we look for Him there, we find Him.

As has been said, God had and has a Plan and He has never deviated.

Jesus Christ-- a Gift, a Redeemer and the Answer....for God's Eternal Purpose and toward Mankind.

The Good News--the Gospel--has always been God's single Solution.

Everything in Creation--space and time--points to Himself--for our sake.

Evil exists as a contrasting and teaching of God's Grace and Love....Eternity will resound with a cry of Grace.