Martyred Tribulation Saints

[Hopefully]

On 6/3/2021 at 11:02 AM, Starise said:

I have looked at the technology some nations supposedly have to project holograms in the sky  using lasers. I see that it could be used as a tool to fool a bunch of people.

I saw this too. It’s called “Project Bluebeam”. I searched project bluebeam technology on YouTube and it does look very realistic.  

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of that day and hour knows no man, not the Son, but the Father only.

There is an unknown day and this is to what the 5th seal martyrs refer. That's why they ask, "How long....?" No one but our Father knows. So no matter where we are in the timeline there is an unknown. Pre, post, mid all have that one unknown day and hour that must be dealt with.

Good morning, I am one of those 20% that hold to the pre-tribulation view. What is your view? Anyone with a different view than what I'm discussing from a pre-tribulation Rapture, will not make much sense and disagreements arise. Looking at it from my perspective, I'll try to explain my question better:

Matthew 25:13 (KJV) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Up to this point; Jesus is talking about the Rapture. I totally agree, we do not know the day nor the hour of His return for His bride, but we can know the season, and we are in that season.

As to Jesus 2nd coming to close out the Tribulation and bring in the millennium, that day should be known in advance also to those in the Tribulation. Just as the Jews should have know the exact day of His first arrival as their Messiah and King. For brevity I will not go into the decree by  Artaxerxes and the 483 years +7 = 490, Palm Sunday, etc. 

It appears the exact length of the Tribulation is given; 1,260 + 1,260 days, with the immediate return of the Lord's 2nd coming. In fact, there is even advanced warning:

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

With that said and the previously mentioned; these martyr's should know exactly the timeline if these are martyred Tribulation saints. Or at a minimum if they do not know what is happening on earth, they should know it is less than seven years, based on when they were martyred. What I am starting to suspect that makes sense in my mind, is these martyred saints are murdered possibly between the Rapture and official start of the Tribulation? If that is the case, they would not know how much longer. It appears the major reason the leader(s) make a covenant with death & hell [the Antichrist], is a scourge is headed their way. 

I'm thinking this 'scourge' is religious persecution of Christians and Jews globally after the Rapture and prior to the Tribulation? Much like historically with the inquisitions and martyrdom of true believers in the dark ages. With the Popes ecumenical one world religion movement [every religion worships the very same god, called by a different name in their culture], the exponential increase in hate and persecution of Jews and Christians globally, and here in the US. Things are ramping up for such a scenario. The Pope has signed letters of agreement with Muslim sects, many "protester" denominations are coming back under the umbrella of the 'one true church' and uniting. Just some of my thoughts...

 

 

[Dennis1209]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:46 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Paul never speaks of a 'rapture', he speaks of the resurrections:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caught up: ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Jerome translating the Greek into Latin in the Latin Vulgate, translated harpazo to rapture, thus the terminology used.

Paul using the inclusive pronoun "we", thought it possible the Rapture could happen in his lifetime. 

My thoughts anyway... 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

44 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

"The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds"

The two verses are not separate, Paul did not create verse and chapter separations,
he just wrote a, short, continuous letter. The verse and chapter separations were added hundreds of years after the writing.

Paul is writing of resurrections and alive people being gloriously caught up with those resurrected. And we know from 1 Cor 15 that it is at that time that we get our glorified immortal bodies.

The dead are raised incorruptible and also any saints still alive would also be raised incorruptible.

 

Paul is clearly not speaking of a time when we disappear and other people are 'left behind', Paul is speaking of the glorious arrival of Christ, when He comes to take fiery vengeance on the world, and to be glorified in His saints: 2nd Thess 1:7-10.
And in 2nd Thess Paul makes clear that it will not happen until after the arrival of the anti-Christ.

 

"The righteous shall rejoice when they see the vengeance,
they shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked" Psalm 58:10

"Unto you that fear my name shall the Son of Righteousness arise
with healing in His wings..
And ye shall trample down the wicked, for they shall be ashes
under the soles of your feet in the day that I do this says the Lord" Malachi 3:2-3

We are caught up to behold the fiery vengeance,
we are caught up to be part of the armies prophesied in Ezekiel 37:9-10,
Jude 1:14-15 and Revelation 19:7-14.

Literally in the clouds, in the air, just as Paul said,
dear one, Paul is speaking about the fiery vengeance: 2 Thess 1:7-10.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Desopixi Seilynam
spelling and reference

[Guest kingdombrat]

I am still in utter shock that on 2 occasions in 1st and 2nd Thess we have the AUDIENCE of Paul asking if they would ever see the people who have died again.   So then Paul explains how it will happen, and then full blown heretics have turned this into literal 2 Comings of Christ after His Ascension.

 

It just baffles me people literally believe that!

Edited June 5, 2021 by kingdombrat

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning, I am one of those 20% that hold to the pre-tribulation view. What is your view? Anyone with a different view than what I'm discussing from a pre-tribulation Rapture, will not make much sense and disagreements arise.

I came out of the 70's. Everyone was pretrib it seemed. Me too for a decade or so.

19 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

Looking at it from my perspective, I'll try to explain my question better:

Matthew 25:13 (KJV) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Up to this point; Jesus is talking about the Rapture. I totally agree, we do not know the day nor the hour of His return for His bride, but we can know the season, and we are in that season.

As to Jesus 2nd coming to close out the Tribulation and bring in the millennium, that day should be known in advance also to those in the Tribulation. Just as the Jews should have know the exact day of His first arrival as their Messiah and King. For brevity I will not go into the decree by  Artaxerxes and the 483 years +7 = 490, Palm Sunday, etc. 

It appears the exact length of the Tribulation is given; 1,260 + 1,260 days, with the immediate return of the Lord's 2nd coming. In fact, there is even advanced warning:

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

With that said and the previously mentioned; these martyr's should know exactly the timeline if these are martyred Tribulation saints. Or at a minimum if they do not know what is happening on earth, they should know it is less than seven years, based on when they were martyred. What I am starting to suspect that makes sense in my mind, is these martyred saints are murdered possibly between the Rapture and official start of the Tribulation? If that is the case, they would not know how much longer.

Yep. I totally understand your point. "We are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation." 

My question is, "How do we know when wrath begins?" 

And, "If it is less than 7 years why would they know 'how long'?

And, "If they are asking the question how could they know?"

One of the major inconsistencies I found in the pretrib doctrine when I really began to study it out is the '7 year tribulation". That idea doesn't appear in scripture.

What I do see is wrath beginning at the 6th seal and the 7th trump. I see Jesus coming and a gathering AFTER the days of GT. 

I used to believe the last week was all tribulation and that it was also all God's wrath and therefore the believers are taken up before the beginning of the last week. 

I think it's most important to know when wrath actually begins in relation to other days and times and events. When Jesus says, "...of that day and hour knows no man, nor the Son, but the Father only." He is speaking to the time of His coming which is when wrath begins. In this way the question of the martyrs is perfectly accurate as no one knows but our Father when that day of vengeance begins.

 

19 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It appears the major reason the leader(s) make a covenant with death & hell [the Antichrist], is a scourge is headed their way. 

I'm thinking this 'scourge' is religious persecution of Christians and Jews globally after the Rapture and prior to the Tribulation? Much like historically with the inquisitions and martyrdom of true believers in the dark ages. With the Popes ecumenical one world religion movement [every religion worships the very same god, called by a different name in their culture], the exponential increase in hate and persecution of Jews and Christians globally, and here in the US. Things are ramping up for such a scenario. The Pope has signed letters of agreement with Muslim sects, many "protester" denominations are coming back under the umbrella of the 'one true church' and uniting. Just some of my thoughts...

Many don't pay much attention to this from Isaiah 28. It is very interesting.

[Dennis1209]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:34 AM, Diaste said:

So then why tell us to watch? if we can't watch for the rapture, as it's imminent, what are we watching for? If the rapture is pretrib we won't be here and the signs are meaningless to us and we have no reason to watch as in the case of pretrib there is nothing to watch for.

If those signs to watch for are for trib saints then has judgment even begun? If there are trib saints in the judgement then isn't God pouring wrath and judgment out on His own people? If a great group is raptured before judgment to escape judgment, why are those same types in judgment? 

 

 

This misses the  idea of "f those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Which days are cut short? The days of GT. GT does not run the whole length of the last week.

Then it seems this has to be reconciled. How can they not know, you ask? Because the judgment of the earth has not begun. These martyred saints know this. Why else would they be asking? If they knew when they would not ask, would they?  These saints know exactly where they are in the timeline and they also know the day and the hour for the beginning of the judgment in vengeance is that very unknown day of which Jesus spoke. 

And, if these are souls under the altar then the rapture could not have taken place since we know when the rapture occurs we have new bodies per 1 Cor 15; these souls under the altar do not have bodies so the rapture has not yet occurred.

That would mean that the whole time period misnamed 'tribulation' is unequivocally not judgment from God. The evidence is clear, "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." are asking "“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?" Clearly they know judgment has not begun. And they are but souls with no physical form, which means they are not yet in the 1 Cor 15 promise of a new incorruptible bodies.

 

I think it's correct based on the souls under the altar and the pleading for vengeance and the time of that vengeance. The rapture has not occurred by the 5th seal and is coming only after the 5th seal.

Like I stated in other posts, my view is in the 20% minority and not necessarily the correct one. Perhaps our views are influenced by our denomination, where we attended church and our personal hermeneutics and studies.

What I find very interesting is, everything we are told in the Bible pertaining to the Rapture, exactly mirrors that of the traditional 2nd Temple period Jewish wedding. Everything from the betrothal and earnest payment, the groom going to prepare a place for his bride [adding a room on to his fathers], to his father telling his son things are ready, the time is right, go fetch your bride and bring her home; and everything in-between. By Jewish law, the bridegroom and bride were already considered married at the betrothal until the official marriage, wedding supper and consummation. She and her bridesmaids were required and expected to remain faithful and watch for the signs and expect the bridegroom to come at any time. I believe there is a 5 + 5 parable closely associated with that?

Nowhere in this traditional Jewish wedding does the bride get killed, bruised, banged up, hurt or abused by the bridegroom. I believe this is a "type" and "shadow" of the Rapture process. 

Some have changed their life long views of the timing of the Rapture. I will not go into his history or credentials, but he is one smart man working for the Lord. I speak of Kent Hovind, one of the smartest men on evolution, dinosaurs and the flood I've ever followed. He suddenly changed his life long view of the timing of the Rapture from pre-tribulation to the 'sixth seal'. 

My thoughts are; the whole seven years are tribulation and judgment for the earth-dwellers, except for the first 3.5 years for the Jews. I believe it starts when the "man of sin" confirms the covenant with the many for seven years. It is Jesus Himself who opens the scroll and begins the seal judgments.

At the midpoint of the Tribulation [3.5 years in], when Satan is permanently cast out of Heaven down to earth; the Great Tribulation begins. Satan or one on his high ranking minions indwell the A/C, and the unholy trinity unleash Hell on Israel and the world. 

I highly suspect, immediately after the Rapture [pretribulation view], when they realize they missed the 'snatching away'. Millions of those that were on the fence about accepting Christ, those who thought they were saved, and many other will drop to their knees and finally accept Jesus as their own Lord and personal Savior. But the age of Grace ended at the Rapture; these new Saints will have to endure the Tribulation, and most likely will have to be martyred for their faith.

Regardless of the timing and our views, Jesus is coming back for His bride. Whether it be our resurrection or Rapture, we are going to be with Him forever. 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Like I stated in other posts, my view is in the 20% minority and not necessarily the correct one. Perhaps our views are influenced by our denomination, where we attended church and our personal hermeneutics and studies.

Yes. I'm just saying I studied the pretrib doctrine intensely for some years so I do understand everything you say.

 

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

What I find very interesting is, everything we are told in the Bible pertaining to the Rapture, exactly mirrors that of the traditional 2nd Temple period Jewish wedding. Everything from the betrothal and earnest payment, the groom going to prepare a place for his bride [adding a room on to his fathers], to his father telling his son things are ready, the time is right, go fetch your bride and bring her home; and everything in-between. By Jewish law, the bridegroom and bride were already considered married at the betrothal until the official marriage, wedding supper and consummation. She and her bridesmaids were required and expected to remain faithful and watch for the signs and expect the bridegroom to come at any time. I believe there is a 5 + 5 parable closely associated with that?

I find this to be very interesting as well. 

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Nowhere in this traditional Jewish wedding does the bride get killed, bruised, banged up, hurt or abused by the bridegroom. I believe this is a "type" and "shadow" of the Rapture process. 

You could be right but this must considered and taken into account.

"I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

"“Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11shining with the glory of God."

As far as I can see the bride is the holy city of Jerusalem, not a group of people. I did a quick look up for verses and found about 20 or so that seemed related. Only two mention the Bride of Christ and both are in Rev 21 and both refer to New Jerusalem. Or maybe it's original and true Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem is just a shadow.

So it's a misnomer to call the body the Bride, hence I don't feel the argument has any merit.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Some have changed their life long views of the timing of the Rapture. I will not go into his history or credentials, but he is one smart man working for the Lord. I speak of Kent Hovind, one of the smartest men on evolution, dinosaurs and the flood I've ever followed. He suddenly changed his life long view of the timing of the Rapture from pre-tribulation to the 'sixth seal'. 

I know that. I listen to Mr. Hovind quite a bit. I agree with your assessment.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

My thoughts are; the whole seven years are tribulation and judgment for the earth-dwellers, except for the first 3.5 years for the Jews. I believe it starts when the "man of sin" confirms the covenant with the many for seven years. It is Jesus Himself who opens the scroll and begins the seal judgments.

At the midpoint of the Tribulation [3.5 years in], when Satan is permanently cast out of Heaven down to earth; the Great Tribulation begins. Satan or one on his high ranking minions indwell the A/C, and the unholy trinity unleash Hell on Israel and the world. 

Yes! I agree!

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I highly suspect, immediately after the Rapture [pretribulation view], when they realize they missed the 'snatching away'. Millions of those that were on the fence about accepting Christ, those who thought they were saved, and many other will drop to their knees and finally accept Jesus as their own Lord and personal Savior. But the age of Grace ended at the Rapture;

these new Saints will have to endure the Tribulation, and most likely will have to be martyred for their faith.

Pretrib says the whole 7 years is wrath and since Paul said, "God has not appointed us the wrath but to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ," the gathering/rapture is a pre tribulational event. Yes?

So then how is it possible believers in Jesus Christ in the last week have to endure that wrath and be martyred?

I don't see any text about timing in either 1 Thess 4 or 1 Cor 15. This has always been an issue from the beginning for me. 

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Regardless of the timing and our views, Jesus is coming back for His bride. Whether it be our resurrection or Rapture, we are going to be with Him forever. 

Agreed!