Crucifying oneself.

[Whyme]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Point of clarification: The title of the op states, "Crucifying oneself," but the passage of scripture talks about crucifying the flesh, not the self. Can you maybe explain why the op is titled as it is when the scripture quoted doesn't have much to do with the specifics of the title? Isn't Romans 6:6 a better reference? 

 

While I await that clarification let me comment on the self and the crucifying thereof. Scripture clearly teaches our old self was citified with Christ (Rom. 6:6) and we are to  "put off" the old self (Eph. 4:22) and not to be selfishly ambitious (Phil. 1:17 and 2:3; 1 Cor. 13:5) but it also teaches us to love others as we love ourself. One of the fruit of the Spirit is self-control. How can that fruit be born if the self is extinguished or eradicated? How can we love others as we love ourselves if we have eradicated the self? Everyone here knows it is bad practice to pit one verse against another because God's word speaks cohesively as a whole without self-contradiction. So where lies the answer? 

The answer lies in the knowledge God created the self! Every single one of us was knit together in our mother's womb by God (Ps. 139:13). He bore His image in every single one of use and He did so in a uniquely different way (7 billion people on the planet and no two are alike) and those of use who are being made in Christ's image bear an additional image of God. Each of us has a name and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life for all eternity. We will never not have a name. 

The self is a creation of God so when the Bible speaks of selflessness, crucifying the self, and not being selfish it should be understood in light of the self being a creation of God's by which we love others and the Spirit "fruits" us to control. 

Do you mean we are crucified, and our flesh is crucified, but these two things dont have much to do with each other? your statement sounds wrong to me. Are there two crucifixions? When i crucify my flesh im crucifying the old man. They are one in the same. 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Whyme

[JustClay]

30 minutes ago, Whyme said:

When i crucify my flesh im crucifying the old man. They are one in the same. 

Exactly, @Whyme.  You’re right.  

[R. Hartono]

On 5/30/2021 at 3:21 AM, Whyme said:

 

 

Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [h]belong to Christ Jesus crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s follow the Spirit as well. 26 Let’s not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

If people want to leave the desire of flesh but never train themselves with regular fasting, its just a theory n a pretender.

[Heleadethme]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

I never said otherwise, did I? 

What I asked was plain and simple: could you clarify or explain why the op is titled "Crucifying oneself" when the text cited to support the title, Galatians 5:16-25, does not remotely say anything about crucifying the self; its speaks about crucifying the flesh, not the self. Verse 23 implicitly affirms the existence of the self, not the death of it. 

Kill your old man but leave your self for the Holy Spirit to control and do not conflate flesh with self; the two are not the same. 

Pretty intense, brother.  I doubt anybody here is taking Whyme to mean that we should literally go nail ourselves to a literal cross and literally die.  Nothing wrong with what he IS saying and meaning...some of us here know what he means and scripture affirms it.  Jesus said it is "self" that we are to deny as we carry our cross.  "Not my will but thine Lord", just as He went to His crucifixion.

Mat 10:38-39

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

 

Gal 2:18-20

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

Rom 6:6-11

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Whyme]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, I mean what I posted. The flesh and the self are not identical and we should be careful not to conflate the two. 

Blessedly, just because something "sounds" wrong does not mean it is wrong. If there is something specific that I posted that can be shown to be incorrect then prove that. Don't go by "sound".  It's real simple. 

Genesis 1:27
"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

We bear God's image.

Psalm 139:13
"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb." 

Job 10:8-11
"Your hands fashioned and made me altogether, And would You destroy me? Remember now, that You have made me as clay; And would You turn me into dust again?  Did You not pour me out like milk And curdle me like cheese;  Clothe me with skin and flesh, And knit me together with bones and sinews?"

Isaiah 44:24
"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things...'"

God formed us., each and every one of us; individually.

Matthew 22:37-39
"And he said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the great and first commandment.  And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Galatians 5:14
"For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.'"

James 2:8 ESV
"If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing well."

These are the first and second greatest commands. Jesus affirmed the necessity of the self. Gonna be hard to love God with all heart, mind, soul, and mind if the self is non-existent,. Similarly, It is going to be very difficult to love someone as we love ourselves if the self is crucified to the point it ceases to exist.

Galatians 5:22-23, 25
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness, self-control.....  If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."

Here again the self is implicitly asserted as a necessity; it is impossible for the Spirit to fruit self-control if there is no self for it to control.

Revelation 3:5
"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels."

We have names that will never be blotted out; they will exist for all eternity.

 

I have already cited some of the verses about ridding ourselves of our old selves, selfish ambition, and crucifying the self. Scripture also tell us self-love is to be disdained. 

2 Timothy 3:1-5
"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.  For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,  unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,  treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these."

Among the many conditions to be avoided is that of self-love.

2 Peter 2:10b
"Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties...."

The same goes for being self-willed.

 

So we understand the self is created by God and is necessary or designed for His purposes but we're not to act with the self as our motive or desire. We are to live by the Spirt as it bears the fruit of self-control in us such that we love, love our neighbors as we love ourselves. The command about loving others as we love ourselves cannot be the love of self about which Paul wrote Timothy.  

Romans 13:8-10
"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.  ..........and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, 'You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

 

It is very important not to conflate flesh (Gk. = "sarx") with yourself (Gk. = "seauton"). The self transcends mere flesh. 

????? No. What in all of heaven and earth would prompt such a question? You do understand the crucifying of self is a metaphor, yes? You are not actually nailed to a cross, Whyme . If you have actually been literally nailed to a literal cross such that your flesh is being literally crucified then please have someone snap a picture of that for us and post it in the forum to prove it . One crucifixion by which the flesh is constantly being put to death such that we no longer live but Christ lives in us (Gal. 2:20). Our old self was crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be rendered powerless (Rom. 6:6) but that does not mean we are no longer unique creatures with names of our own which we will possess for all eternity. Moses didn't stop being Moses just because he died; nor did Elijah. You and I will not cease to be Whyme and Josh, either. 

I never said otherwise, did I? 

What I asked was plain and simple: could you clarify or explain why the op is titled "Crucifying oneself" when the text cited to support the title, Galatians 5:16-25, does not remotely say anything about crucifying the self; its speaks about crucifying the flesh, not the self. Verse 23 implicitly affirms the existence of the self, not the death of it. 

Kill your old man but leave your self for the Holy Spirit to control and do not conflate flesh with self; the two are not the same. 

 

 

.

Quote

 The flesh and the self are not identical and we should be careful not to conflate the two. 

If people are not flesh then why do they need to be reborn in Spirit? Why am i, a sinner, found guilty of something that is not part of me? 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Whyme

[Whyme]

13 hours ago, Whyme said:

When i crucify my flesh im crucifying the old man. They are one in the same. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

I never said otherwise, did I? 

Yes! you did.

[Whyme]

Time to leave my own thread. We must avoid things that would cause us to stumble

[Whyme]

.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Whyme

[Selah7]

2 minutes ago, Whyme said:

Time to leave my own thread. We must avoid things that would cause us to stumble

Words of wisdom... thank you, Whyme.  Press on!  You have a great Defender in heaven. Blessings! 

[Guest clancy]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

????? That has nothing to do with what I posted. I never said people aren't flesh. This is the second red herring posted. Please stop. What I said was the flesh and the self are not identical and we should be careful not to conflate the two. 

The flesh and the self are not identical. 

Is there some difficulty understanding this? Is greater explanation needed? Forgive me but I did assume everyone understood the flesh is only one small part of ourselves and not remotely the whole. Do I need to explain that? 

If not then please address the fact the flesh and the self are not identical and they should not be treated synonymously.Galatians 5 asserts the (new) self in a positive manner . It says the flesh, not the self, was crucified. The flesh is not the same thing as the self. The title and its opening post do not reconcile.   The scriptures state the flesh was crucified with Christ. The scriptures state the old man was crucified with Christ. The scriptures do not say "oneself". The title of the op is incorrect. It's a simple solution, Whyme: go back and change the title to read "flesh" or "old man" (or both) instead of oneself. That will be consistent with the scriptures. You do that and I'll delete my op-reply . Maybe  one or two other posts. 

Otherwise, there is a conflict between the title of the op and its opening post; a problem that is easily solved and does not require anyone at any time in any way to misconstrue what I have posted. 

 

I’ve come in a bit late,Josheb, can you explain the difference between the flesh and self, if I look silly asking this question,I don’t mind....thank you.?