Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[mosquito]

not the same guy

No based on your link this is the same guy.

In the late seventies, it was a controversy with him that he was "consoling" people. The california supreme court ruled that there was not enough evidence to hold him accountable for his actions, so it was dropped. But there is an air of suspicion around it.

Also in his book "The Gospel According to Jesus" he writes about salvation through works which kicked up a lot of controversy as well. He also states that with repentance of sin also is a requirement for being saved. Seems to me that he did not learn about controlling the lives of other people and that the consequences of it cause a great deal of pain to others.

Does it not say in the Bible that salvation is through grace alone?

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

Edited August 18, 2007 by mosquito

[mosquito]

I heard this kid killed himself, but John certainly did not tell him to do it; you're just repeating parroted accusations here, you don't have all the facts

No he was instrumental in setting the stage for this kid to live up to a standard he could not. Big difference there. And you cannot deny the fact this was the first time a church was ever thought of being held accountable for a wrongful death. That much I remember, I'm just looking for some sort of link to substantiate it.

Try this one:

"MacArthur has been embroiled in a number of controversies, the most famous of which was the first time an evangelical church had ever been sued for malpractice. Kenneth Nally, a 24-year old seminary student, committed suicide in 1979. The following year, MacArthur and several members of the staff were brought to court to determine the legality of counseling people from the Bible rather than modern psychology, although Nally had been receiving psychological help elsewhere as well. After seven years of court rulings, challenges, and appeals, the California Supreme Court found that there was not enough evidence to go to a full trial."

http://www.christianity-guide.com/christia...arthur,_jr..htm

Something clearly happened.....I stating what I have read about the situation. Maybe you have more clearer facts? Post them if you can.

Then it must have been pulled out of context, John certainly does not believe that. Again, you are parroting stuff, that's obvious, have you actually read the book? Before you throw out random (baseless), slanderous accusations like this, how about actually doing your homework?

http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=positions

click on "Doctrinal Distinctives" at right, then "Lordship Salvation"

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ

Edited August 19, 2007 by mosquito

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Can we get back to talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture? I'm interested in the discussion.

[IraBenYahweh]

So here is the real question today every second 7 people are going to step of this planet into eternity with or with out Faith in Jesus Christ.

1st question Do you even give a darn?

[IraBenYahweh]

So here is the real question today every second 7 people are going to step of this planet into eternity with or with out Faith in Jesus Christ. 1st question Do you even give a darn?

and Jesus says "I have lost none of them"....God's Elect cannot be lost

Better yet yzf (Do you care enough to make a change in the eternal destiny?) yep I am a Mark Cahill fan as well Infact I am changing my whole life as a result of those questions it is about Dang time someone gives a rats rump and takes some action and i want to be one of the first to vollunteer I watch the gab of this room and wonder

How many PEOPLE have you reach out to for Christ today?

Yzf If you feel like it drop me a line I have some information you might enjoy if you dont already have it that is ......

[IraBenYahweh]

This is a salvation issue.

Do you have any idea of how many are walking away from Christ in asia becuase of pretrib teaching. do you know why they walk away becuase for them the tribulation is already at hand even if it is not the great tribulation it is still tribulation and these missionarys teach this stuff to them and the believe it but then there government comes and says your faith or your life. if this was a daily thing happening you would see thousands of christians rejecting christ in this country

please view this and ask yourself if put in this situation God my Lord what would I say if I was hear. I can not stress enough how much impoortance this is that you watch the movie and put your self in this pastors shoes and read YZF statements becuase you are risking each persons faith that you teach this. if you read your bible it is unbiblical to teach things as for sure when you really dont know for sure. better to have a millstone around your neck it says. Pre Trib teach is less than 100 years old some people say that paul taught it what is interesting is that if he did teach it they never passed it on to any one Not one persen Paul personaly taught pass pretrib on. i wonder why. Maybe becuase he never taught it Historical documents other than the bible show that it was never passed down if he had taught it it would have been more clear in the bible and others who wrote books after being taught by him would have wrote it down in ther copy of ther own books (such as journals and any other type book that could have been writen during that time)

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?view...amp;category=tf

quote YZF

[u][b]I sure hope that you are right. You're betting a terribly high price. Because the biggest problem with the "escapist" mentality of pretribulational rapturism is that if the resurrection of the Church does not occur before the seventieth week, then She is woefully unprepared for the events She must endure.[/b][/u]

YZF GETS IT SOME ONE GETS IT that is the point do you understand that is the point Read YZF

[abrandnewgirl]

my understanding is that the purpose of the tribulation is to punish unbelievers. so why would believers be included in that punishment? i am pre-trib all the way!

I am always amazed that people think this way!! As if being a christian is going to excuse one from times of trouble......And where does this idea that the tribulation is a time of punishment for those left on the earth?? That is ludicrous in thinking that way. Please explain why you think you are excused from suffering?? Suffering for His Name sake is Biblical.

While there is yet time, Let's keep our heads on our shoulders while we can.....a time may come when we are asked if we are believers in Jesus the Messiah....and it will be our hearts and a confessing mouth in Jesus Christ that liberates us to cross over. Corrie Ten Boom thought Jesus was going to rapture her and her sister away and it never happened! They had every reason in the world to think they were in the end times and tribulation. Was God allowing them to be punished??? I am trying to make a point here people.....And what about all the christians, men and women and children that were thrown into the lion pits and persecuted...they were told the end is at hand...and were they being punished??? Tribulation is defined as Trouble....In the end it is going to be great tribulation, as in no other time before.

I think some people don't really give it much thought about the fact that they may have to die for his name sake or that it could possibly come to that. It would be so much easier to just fantisize us being caught away before all Hell breaks loose but I am not reading that in between the lines. I would rather have God's truth and His Holy Spirit with me in good times and bad times....this life on earth is just a moments affliction. Who would die for their Lord when it boils down to it? Seems to me alot of muslims are more willing than christians. Where is the passion for Jesus as Paul had while he lived and walked the earth or Zeal and fire like John the Baptizer???

I think if all Hell broke loose many would run for their lives and great fear would overtake many.....and many would fall away.

Let's hear some answers for that.....

Abrandnewgirl

[eric]

Haah, Toni, no one will believe that, because it is the truth. They would sooner listen to R.Warren or B.McLaren who habve probably never mentioned end times prophecy in their sermons for fear of rocking the boat.

[sweetycakes]

Personally, I like the explanation given by the (late) Barry Smith, when he preached at our church quite a number of years ago.

This was before the millennium, and there was a lot of speculation around at that time regarding whether or not Jesus would return around that time.

He said

"I believe that Jesus will definitely return in 2000......................or before it...................................................or after it.

That way I can be free to carry on preaching."

[OneLight]

I tried to read through this thread to understand what others believe about when the rapture will come, but found myself wondering why so much had been eliminated by sending emails instead of posting. Too bad for those of us who want to follow this thread.

With this said, I have to wonder if it really matters what people think about the timing of Jesus return? He is coming! Jesus told us to watch and be ready. He did not tell us to argue about the timing. Does it really matter when?? What I am more concerned about is if our lamps are full and our wicks are trimmed.

I should also add that we are commanded to search the scriptures daily for answers, but please, continue in love for one another.