Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Psalms37:4]

On 8/25/2017 at 0:28 AM, n2thelight said:

That would be correct

This is not addressed solely to n2thelight. This is for all readers' benefit. This might seem a little lengthy for some of the readers but I highly highly highly recommend everyone try to understand as much of it as possible because this solves one of the biggest mystery that has plagued the church. And you won't find this information anywhere else. 

I'm not posting this to debate with anyone. I'm doing this to answer a question and hopefully help other readers come to understand what 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 really is because it has created a huge confusion within the church, and has changed the thinking of many people of what the rapture is, particularly the timing of it's occurrence.

In the next few days, I'll post another article revealing what our immortal bodies will look like that Paul did not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15. It's a related topic and another mystery reveal.

 

In the future, there are still three major resurrections ahead.

1) The rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

2) The resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints (Revelation 20:4)

3) The GWT Judgment (Revelation 20:11-14)

 

 

Here's the answer.

What 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is not. It's NOT the rapture.

What 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is. IT'S THE SECOND RESURRECTION. The resurrection at the GWT Judgment after the millennium.

 

First let's cover the logical and obvious reasons.

1) Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery." Basically he's saying "look, I'm gonna tell you a secret." 

How can 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 be a secret if it's the rapture? He already expounded on the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 and everyone knows about it.

2) Paul tells us a resurrection will happen at the last trump. 

How can the last trump be the 7th trump of Revelation when Paul wrote his books around 60 AD and John wrote Revelation around 90 AD? Paul knew nothing about the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

 

 

Now compare the wordings Paul used to describe both events.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵¹ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— ⁵² in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ⁵³ For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ⁵⁴ So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

⁵⁵ “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

If you read 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 carefully, you'll notice there's only one single verse that sounds remotely compariable to the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: verse 52. All other verses doesn't even talk about the rapture. 

* In 1 Corinthians 15:52, "the dead" are raised as in all the dead. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, only the "dead in Christ" are raised.

 

* In 1 Corinthians 15:52, it said "and we all change," as in everyone changes, but no one gets caught up. In 1 Thess 4:17, you already know this refers to only the church and you see only the church getting caught up. Not all.

 

* In 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, we don't see Jesus anywhere nor do we not see those in-Christ either. Paul said "look, I'm gonna tell you a secret." What kind of a secret is it leaving out the two most important figures of the rapture: The Groom and the Bride.

 

* In Corinthians 15:53-54 Paul tells us all will be made immortal. But in Isaiah 65:20, the bible tells us people will continue to die during the millennium.

Isaiah 65:20 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁰ “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

Isaiah 65:20 Good News Translation (GNT)

²⁰ Babies will no longer die in infancy, and all people will live out their life span. Those who live to be a hundred will be considered young. To die before that would be a sign that I had punished them.

 

Now if 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is the rapture and everyone is made immortal before the millennium, why would there be a war at the end of the millennium if satan can't kill anyone?

Revelation 20:7-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁷ Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

 

Now here are the two biggest evidences against 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 being the rapture.

First major evidence:

From 1 Corinthians 15:24-26, Paul tells us Christ will rule and reign until all of God's enemies are destroyed, and the last enemy destroyed will be death.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁴ Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. ²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. ²⁶ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

²⁴ Then the end will come. Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers. Then he will give the kingdom to God the Father.

²⁵ Christ must rule until God puts all enemies under his control.²⁶ The last enemy to be destroyed will be death.

 

In 1 Corinthians 15:55, we find death destroyed and eliminated during a resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁴ So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

⁵⁵ “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

 

Where else in the bible can we find death destroyed during a resurrection?

Revelation 20:11-14 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. ¹⁴ Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

Second major evidence:

If you read all of 1 Corinthians 15 beginning with verse 20 till the end of the chapter, Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 in chronological order.

~ The rapture already happened at Christ coming mentioned in 1 Cor 15:23.

~ Christ's millennial reign is covered in 1 Cor 15:24-26.

~ From 1 Cor 15:35-49, Paul introduces us to the immortal body (our spiritual body).

~ From 1 Cor 15:50 till the end of the chapter, Paul reveals when and how we'll all be made immortal.

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-58 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Last Enemy Destroyed

²⁰ But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. ²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. ²³ But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. ²⁴ Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. ²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. ²⁶ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. ²⁸ Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Effects of Denying the Resurrection

²⁹ Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? ³⁰ And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? ³¹ I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. ³² If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”

³³ Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” ³⁴ Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak thisto your shame.

A Glorious Body

³⁵ But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” ³⁶ Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. ³⁷ And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.³⁸ But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

³⁹ All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

⁴⁰ There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. ⁴¹ There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

⁴² So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. ⁴³ It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. ⁴⁴ It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. ⁴⁵ And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

⁴⁶ However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. ⁴⁷ The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. ⁴⁸ As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. ⁴⁹ And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.

Our Final Victory

⁵⁰ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. ⁵¹ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— ⁵² in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ⁵³ For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ⁵⁴ So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

⁵⁵ “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

⁵⁶ The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. ⁵⁷ But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

⁵⁸ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 cor 15%3A20-58&version=NKJV;ERV;GNT

 

What Paul did in his books was expound on the rapture: 1 Thess 4 & 5 (the first resurrection) and introduced us to the mystery of the second resurrection: 1 Cor 15. John finally expounded the second resurrection in the book of Revelation some 30 years later. 

By now some of you might have figured out what Paul meant when he said "the last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52. It's the final trumpet, the last time God will ever need to raise the dead and call them up to heaven and appear at the GWT since death will be no more.

For those that didn't know, whenever God calls up the dead or alive up to heaven, He speaks in a loud majestic voice the sound of a great trumpet (the trump of God). This trump Paul spoke of is not a literal trumpet like the ones the 7 angels or anyone else blows on.

 

Revelation 4:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

² Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

 

Hebrews 12:19-24 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. ²⁰ (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” ²¹ And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[seeking the lost]

On 8/21/2017 at 9:39 PM, HAZARD said:

 A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared
a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can
make Himself understood. Please understand this my friends, God will
hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to
say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false
in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that
rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word
that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48;
Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of
changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of
ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself
to be.

Greetings PM, Hazzard

I find your words most interesting.  Have you considered the reason that Jesus taught in parables?  Matthew teaches us why in chapter 13.

Matthew 13:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

God hides Himself from many and reveals Himself to the chosen.  

Regarding the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything that you want it is those who teach the pre-tribulation rapture that do this.

To be faithful to the text and avoid the curse of the book of revelation no one can add to or take from the writings of this book.  There is not a resurrection before the tribulation and therefore there cannot be a rapture before the tribulation.  The only way that that can be done is by changing the definition of the resurrection or adding one for your convenience.

On 8/21/2017 at 9:39 PM, HAZARD said:

The bible clearly states that the hinderer of lawlessness must be removed before the Antichrist is revealed,  2 Thess. 2:7-8, For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. V. 8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The one who hinders will stop hindering without being taken out of the World.  The Church does not have the role of hindering.  The Holy Spirit will turn evil loose is all that that means.

 

On 8/21/2017 at 9:39 PM, HAZARD said:

On 8/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Psalms 37:04

I am not saying anything about salvation or obtaining it.  I understand that that is by grace through faith.  Christians that are alive at the time of the seven year tribulation will not be taken up in some  rapture.  All that are in Christ are described as being asleep and will be raised up when the last trumpet sounds on the last day.  Those who are found to be listed in the book of life will go be with Jesus.  Those not listed will go the other direction.

How did I get it wrong?  The quotation of the scripture was only followed by a comment about going through tribulation.  That is exactly what the scripture says.  I said nothing about salvation.  Jesus said that in the world we would have tribulation.  Jesus prayed to the Father for believers in John 17.  

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

I believe it is the pre-trib position that wants to avoid tribulation All that I have pointed to indicates that is part of the normal Christian life.  Jesus did say that in the world you will have tribulation.  He also said be of good cheer I have overcome the World.  We have tools to overcome recorded for us in Revelation 12:11

They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.

You have a great ability to jump to conclusions and to add to the text.  Maybe we both can learn something.

 

 A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared
a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can
make Himself understood. Please understand this my friends, God will
hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to
say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false
in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that
rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word
that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48;
Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of
changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of
ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself
to be.

 

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead
and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order
that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.
Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were
to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you many be accounted worthy
to escape all these things of,  Matt. 24, 25; Luke
21:1-19, 25-28, that
shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” 
Luke 21:34-36. These
two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3 are the only ones in the Gospels
that are clear concerning the Rapture.. Jesus did not
reveal this, it was
revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The
disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

Not one of the scriptures that speak of escaping all these things ever mentions a rapture.  Do you not think it is possible for God to pour out Wrath on the unbelievers and at the same time not pour out His wrath on the Church?  As you put things together do not put the rapture together with anything without a resurrection.  The first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation.  To find one before you will have to educate John and convince him to change the word first in Revelation 20.

I leave you with the prayer of Jesus to the Father John 17.

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings PM, Hazzard

I find your words most interesting.  Have you considered the reason that Jesus taught in parables?  Matthew teaches us why in chapter 13.

Matthew 13:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

God hides Himself from many and reveals Himself to the chosen.  

Regarding the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything that you want it is those who teach the pre-tribulation rapture that do this.

To be faithful to the text and avoid the curse of the book of revelation no one can add to or take from the writings of this book.  There is not a resurrection before the tribulation and therefore there cannot be a rapture before the tribulation.  The only way that that can be done is by changing the definition of the resurrection or adding one for your convenience.

The one who hinders will stop hindering without being taken out of the World.  The Church does not have the role of hindering.  The Holy Spirit will turn evil loose is all that that means.

 

Not one of the scriptures that speak of escaping all these things ever mentions a rapture.  Do you not think it is possible for God to pour out Wrath on the unbelievers and at the same time not pour out His wrath on the Church?  As you put things together do not put the rapture together with anything without a resurrection.  The first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation.  To find one before you will have to educate John and convince him to change the word first in Revelation 20.

I leave you with the prayer of Jesus to the Father John 17.

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

 

Seeking the lost. You wrote, "God hides Himself from many and reveals Himself to the chosen.  

Regarding the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything that you want it is those who teach the pre-tribulation rapture that do this."

Sorry, Its obvious God has revealed His plan to rapture His saints out of the world before the tribulation to protect them and escape all the terrible things that will occur. Its the devil who has kept these truth from you! I have not changed any Scriptures to mean anything I want, read them with an open and honest heart and you will get it.

 

Scripture clearly teaches the Rapture of the Church will be before the Tribulation.

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.

 

Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36.

 

These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

 

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

whose voice then shook the earth; 

ThiS is were God shook the earth

I expect that this passage is speaking of the last trumpet of God:

And the Lord will cause His voice of authority to be heard,
And the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger,
And in the flame of a consuming fire
In cloudburst, downpour and hailstones.      Isaiah 30:30

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Exodus 19 to be the first, isaiah 30:30 to be the last

Completely agree.

[Psalms37:4]

On 8/28/2017 at 3:27 AM, inchrist said:

Wrong hebrews 12:18-21 being Mt Sinai is indeed being paralleled to Mt zion Hebrews 12:22

You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 

Ex 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently

to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them,

Ex 20:18 &19  When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.

ex 19:12&13 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death.  They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live

The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear

What Hebrews12 is teaching is a parallel between the Old covenant and the New covenant.

I do not obiect to the sound of the trumpet to be the trump of God for the resurrection, however of you are going to use Hebrews 12:19 then the correct  hermeneutics approach is to pay attention to the entire context of Hebrews 12 and since hebrew 12 is paralleled with Mt Sinai and Mt zion, then you need to parallel the sequence of events

Gods people first consecrated themselves, it was only on the third day, Gods people went to go meet God

Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 

Then the shaking of earth

18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently.

Then the trumpet

 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

Then moses went UP

20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up

If you can't understand Hebrews 12 reading it in the translation you're using, try another translation. If that doesn't help, than the problem is obviously you because you've missed the whole point, the whole message, the whole theme of this prophecy. It's a dire warning for everyone and those who are willing to listen and accept what's written in the bible -- the whole bible -- and not cherry pick what they want to accept, are the ones who will escape God's wrath before He shakes heaven and earth (the tribulation).

 

Hebrews 12:25 (CSB) See that you do not reject the One who speaks; for if they did not escape when they rejected Him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven.

Hebrews 12:25 (GW) Be careful that you do not refuse to listen when God speaks. Your ancestors didn't escape when they refused to listen to God, who warned them on earth. We certainly won't escape if we turn away from God, who warns us from heaven.

Hebrews 12:25 (NCV) So be careful and do not refuse to listen when God speaks. Others refused to listen to him when he warned them on earth, and they did not escape. So it will be worse for us if we refuse to listen to God who warns us from heaven.

Hebrews 12:25 (NIRV) Be sure that you don't say no to the One who speaks. People did not escape when they said no to the One who warned them on earth. And what if we turn away from the One who warns us from heaven? How much less will we escape!

Hebrews 12:25 (NKJV) See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,

Hebrews 12:25 (NLT) Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!

Yehudim in Moshiach 12:25 (OJB) See to it that you do not refuse the One speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused Him who gave them warning on ha’aretz, much less shall we escape who turn away from the One whose warning comes from Shomayim.

 

The theme of this message is not about Exodus 19. Sometimes it's better to listen than talk too much for you might talk yourself out of salvation, (Hebrews 9:28).

Hebrews 12 is a Pre-Trib rapture scripture. Those who escape are those who listen and accepted His promise He'll send Christ to deliver His church before the wrath (Romans 5:9, 2 Peter 2:9, 1 Thess 5:9), not at th 7th trumpet. You just can't accept it because you refuse to listen to His word; The church is raptured into heaven before God judges the world.

~ The church is seen in heaven, Hebrews 12:22-24.

~ This happens before God judges the world, Hebrews 12:26.

~ And by fire, Hebrews 12:29.

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

²⁵ See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, ²⁶ whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” ²⁷ Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

²⁸ Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. ²⁹ For our God is a consuming fire.

 

 

 

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Nope wrong,

whose voice then shook the earth; 

ThiS is were God shook the earth

Ex 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently.

This is were God promises to shake the earth ONCE MORE, but this time also heaven,

Boy you really stuck your foot in your mouth this time.

Read it carefully ole foolish one. Its said "the whole mountain trembled" not the whole earth.

Ex 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently.

 

 

Quote

Really?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. 

You don't even know the difference between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12. You probably think they're both the same event. 

 

Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

 

Well they're not! Matthew 24:29 happens immediately after the tribulation while at the 6th seal of Revelation 6, the 144,000 gets sealed. 

If they're the same event, why would God seal the 144,000 after the tribulation?

Do you know the differences between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12?

 

 

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Christ just referenced the tribulation to matthew 24:15 as jacobs trouble, and since its before the shaking of the heavens and earth

Read'em and weep again! The Time of Jacob's Trouble is the entire second half of the tribulation, not solely in Matthew 24:15. 

 

“Both the Time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. Jer. 30:6-7) and the Great Tribulation (Mtt. Mat. 24:21) are described as the unparalleled time of trouble. Since there can only be one such time, both will cover the same time period. The Great Tribulation will begin in the middle of the seven-year 70th week. We know this because Jesus indicated that the Great Tribulation will begin with the abomination of desolation (Mtt. Mat. 24:15-21), which will take place in the middle of the 70th week (Dan. Dan. 9:27). . . . Since the Great Tribulation will begin in the middle and terminate at the end of the 70th week and will cover the same time period as the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, the Time of Jacob’s Trouble will also cover the entire second half of the 70th week.”—Ibid., 23-24.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/introduction/jacobs-trouble-and-the-great-tribulation.html

 

 

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Then you shouldnt have a problem providing me scripture for this candyfloss
You honestly didn't know that Israel will be at peace after they sign a peace treaty?

Scripture support?

You honestly didn't know the world will be enduring the tribulation in chaos while Israel is in peace and safety in the first 3.5 years?

Scrpture support?

You honestly did't know Israel's peace treaty will only last 3.5 years into the tribulation and the treaty will be broken by the mid point?

 scripture support?
 

This is common knowledge. All students of bible prophecy knows Israel will sign a peace treaty for 7 years that coincide with the tribulation. And everyone knows where this is found in the bible. 

The only problem is you can't even understand the candyfloss when you see the scripture. But everyone else understands it. Why not you?

If you can't understand the bible, than just watch the news. The peace treaty will be a reality after Israel's next and final war before the tribulation begins. This is given in the bible. I would tell you were but it'll just go over your head like everything else thus far. If you can't understand a peace treaty is coming, how will you understand what war is ahead?

Netanyahu: Peace is within reach http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/234470

Report: Kushner promised plan within four months

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/234556

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[n2thelight]

On 8/24/2017 at 3:13 PM, Zemke said:

Numbers 10 I believe, interestingly, tells us the last trumpet sounds and the southern camp, the last camp, leaves and the camp before that was the east camp. Well it's interesting to me that Jerusalem buried their dead on the east and most people lived on the south, "The dead in Christ rise first". Paul was actually, in basic fundamental starting points in understanding, referring to the last trump of Numbers and the last of the camp remaining, leaving.

So at this point I do not believe the seventh trumpet in Revelation is the last trump.

If the 7th trump in Rev is not the last,where is the 8th?

[n2thelight]

On 8/27/2017 at 5:21 PM, HAZARD said:

Sorry, Its obvious God has revealed His plan to rapture His saints out of the world before the tribulation to protect them and escape all the terrible things that will occur. Its the devil who has kept these truth from you! I have not changed any Scriptures to mean anything I want, read them with an open and honest heart and you will get it.

What terrible things?How many terrible things been happening to Christians since the beginning of time?

What's the worst that can happen,death of the flesh,and what did Christ say about that?

King James Bible
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

Now back to these terrible things you speak of,try the below,and do tell why were these Christians not raptured?

Early Christians sometimes faced persecution and even death for their beliefs. Many were tortured first; some were not. Of Jesus’s 11 disciples (not counting Judas) Peter, Simon the Zealot, Phillip, Jude the brother of James, and Andrew were all crucified in various parts of the world. Peter requested to be crucified upside down, a request the Romans were only too happy to grant. Andrew’s cross was in the shape of an X, which is now called St. Andrew’s Cross and appears on the Scottish flag.

This list contains 10 of the most bizarre and painful methods of torture inflicted upon the Christians of antiquity through the Early Middle Ages. Much of this information has been gleaned from John Foxe’s Book of Martyrsand corroborated elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

10Cooked To Death

Saint Lawrence of Rome is more well known for the manner of his death than his ministry in life. When a Roman prefect demanded that the tithes of the Catholic Church be handed over to the Roman state, Lawrence brought forth his impoverished congregation, who he stated were the tithes, as the money had been given them for food. The infuriated prefect ordered metal plates to be set over a bed of coals and heated until they were red-hot. Lawrence was then bound and laid naked on them, face up. His flesh sizzled, smoked, and was burned black, yet Lawrence made no outcry, nor did he beg forgiveness from the prefect. He finally called in a clear voice, “I’m done on that side. Turn me over and eat.” He is now the patron saint of cooks.

Peter, a eunuch of Diocletian’s household, was discovered to be a Christian and cooked in the same manner as Lawrence.

 

9Dragged To Death

Mark, who wrote the Gospel of Mark, founded the Christian Church in Alexandria and preached to the masses that they should give up their Egyptian gods and goddesses. It’s not clear how long he was able to keep this up, but he did convert many before A.D. 68, when an angry mob tied a rope around his neck and dragged him through the streets behind a chariot for two days without interruption. The dragging continued even after his death, until his bones were showing.

According to some sources, Hippolytus of Rome, an elder under Pope Pontian, was dragged to death behind a wild horse on the island of Sardinia. He is now the patron saint of horses. In 257, Saturninus of Toulouse was dragged behind a bull around the city until the bull was chased down a flight of stone steps and Saturninus’s brain was dashed from his skull.

Julian the Apostate succeeded Constantius II (who succeeded his father, Constantine the Great) in 361. Julian restored the pagan religions to the empire and horribly persecuted Christians. Within two years, he was ordering them sought out and dragged to death in every city and along the caravan routes throughout Palestine.

 

 

 

 

8Skinned

Removal of the skin is so excruciating that victims invariably passed out multiple times during the torture. To prevent this, they were usually hung upside down so the excess blood flow to their brains forced them to remain conscious. The skin is not easy to remove, and torturers rarely made an effort to remove it in one piece unless they wanted a trophy. Typically, the skin was sliced into strips, then each strip peeled from the body with the aid of a knife. Often, the skin was thrown into a fire or to animals, or dangled before the victim’s eyes.

This is how Bartholomew, one of the 12 apostles, was killed by locals in Armenia, into whose language he translated Matthew’s Gospel. The Armenians refused to abandon their idols and executed Bartholomew by crucifying him upside down and skinning him.

7Sewn Into Skins And Eaten By Dogs

This torture was devised by Nero himself, not merely to cause Christians pain but to entertain him and his guests. Nero was infamously rumored to have crucified Christians on trees in his gardens, coated them with wax, and set them on fire to light his nightly walks (he evidently didn’t mind the stench). Others he ordered sewn into hides—any large animal was skinned, and the prepared skin sewn around the victim except for the head, hands, and feet. Then ravenous dogs were set loose. The victim could only scuttle around on all fours like a crab. Nero was said to have laughed heartily as the dogs gnawed at the skin as they would a bone.

Julian of Antioch was tortured every day for an entire year and displayed to the crowds in every town in Cilicia, (a southern coastal region of what is now Turkey). He was then sewn into a skin filled with asps and scorpions and flung into the Aegean Sea. He was said to have floated all the way across the Mediterranean to Alexandria, Egypt.

6Starved To Death

Emperor Decius ruled from 249 to 251, when he was killed at the Battle of Abrittus in Bulgaria. During his short reign, he had a temple built in Ephesus and required that all Christians sacrifice for the good of the emperor (not “to” the emperor, since this would impute divinity to Decius, who was still alive). This was against Roman law, but the Christians largely considered any similar sacrifice counter to their faith and refused, even when warned that they would be tortured to death. Pope Fabian himself was beheaded over the issue.

The next year, seven of Decius’s best soldiers, Constantinus, Dionysius, Malchus, Martianus, Maximianus, Joannes, and Seraion, were discovered to be Christian converts. Decius attempted to bribe them back to the Roman faith by giving them a long furlough while he was away. They fled the area and hid in a cave. Upon Decius’s return, he was told of their whereabouts and had the cave sealed. All seven died from starvation or dehydration. There is a legend, similar to Rip van Winkle, that these seven men fell asleep and woke up 360 years later, exited the cave and amazed the people in the town.

 

 

 

 

 

5Boiled To Death

Boiling water causes almost instant first-degree burns and will cause third-degree burns after 10 minutes. Eventually, the flesh will slough away deep into the muscle, and death is usually marked by the water turning red as it finally breaches the blood vessels. Tradition holds that John the Apostle, who wrote the Gospel of John, survived without harm after being boiled in a cauldron of oil, after which he was exiled to Patmos Island in the Aegean.

In 222, a woman named Cecilia, possibly Saint Cecilia, was boiled in a bathtub over a bed of coals for a day and a half, after she converted her husband and brother. They were beheaded, as was the captain who led them to their deaths, because he converted in view of the victims’ fearlessness. After Cecilia was drawn alive from the tub, she is said to have sung a song of praise to God, which is why she is the patron saint of music. She was then beheaded. This inspired the Second Nun’s Tale in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales.

4The Inquisition’s Auto Da Fe

By the 13th century, everybody expected the Spanish Inquisition. The church formed inquisitions in every country in Western Europe, but the Spanish was the most brutal and feared. Anyone found guilty even of reading the Bible in his or her own language was tried, usually convicted, and often executed. The ceremony of execution and torture was called an “Auto da Fe,” or “Act of Faith.” The Inquisition was required not to spill any blood in performing tortures, but this requirement was usually ignored.

The most common method called for the victim to be stripped to his underwear and laid face-up on an elevated platform. Thin cords were passed through holes and wrapped around the limbs, then drawn so tightly that they cut through the victim’s flesh to the bones. If no confession was made, the process was repeated up to four times. If this elicited no confession, the next stage involved folding the arms backward behind the victim with the palms outward, then both arms were tied to a winch that ratcheted them closer and closer until the backs of the hands touched. This ripped both shoulders out of the sockets with such pressure that blood spewed from the mouth. A surgeon would then set the joints and the victim was given two months in prison to recover.

Two months later, the last torture involved a heavy chain lashed around the body with both ends attached to a winch. The arms were pinned straight at the sides and the chain was passed around the wrists. Then it was tightened like a tourniquet until the shoulders and wrists dislocated. The joints were then reset, and the torture immediately inflicted a second time. If the victim still did not confess, he was sent to be burned at the stake. If he did, he was placed in prison for another month or two, then released a cripple.

3Ground To Death In A Mill

Under the rule of Maximian, Saint Victor Maurus may have suffered the most excruciating death of all. He secretly ministered to his parishioners in Milan until about 303, when he was discovered and immediately dragged through the streets behind a horse while the crowds stripped him naked and beat him, then demanded he recant. He refused and was stretched on the rack for a day, during which time he prayed to God for patience. He was then imprisoned—and immediately converted three of his guards. When Maximian heard of this, he ordered the guards beheaded, and Victor racked again, while the torturers beat him savagely with clubs. He was ordered to recant and refused a third time. Maximian had a Roman altar built and ordered Victor to sacrifice incense on it to Jupiter. This enraged Victor, who kicked over the altar. Maximian furiously ordered the offending foot cut off, after which Victor was flung into a stone mill used to grind wheat into flour, and the torturers ground him to death.

2Broken On The Wheel

The breaking wheel is a horribly painful method of torture in which the victim was tied to the side of a wheel laid flat on the ground. Then one of two methods was employed: Either the torturer used a sledgehammer to smash every limb to pulp, or the wheel was made to turn in transection with another, like gears, so that the victim’s body was crushed between them. No bone or section of bone was spared, except the torso and head to keep the victim alive. Sometimes the genitals were smashed. Then the victim was left in this condition to die from exposure, blood loss, or to be eaten by birds and ants.

This was the fate of a man called Peter, in Lampsacus, Mysia (now Lapseki in Turkey), in about 250. He was martyred along with three others: Paul, Andrew, and Dionisia. Dionisia was condemned to be raped to death, but tradition holds that an angel spared her and the three nominated rapists ran away in fear. She then escaped prison, but desired to be martyred like her friends and allowed the authorities to recapture her. She was beheaded, and Paul and Andrew were stoned. Peter was broken on the wheel, then beheaded.

1Having Their Guts Eaten By Pigs

In 363, under Julian the Apostate, Saint Marcus was Bishop of Arethusa, a town near modern Apameia, Syria. Julian ordered Marcus to repair a dilapidated pagan temple, but Marcus destroyed it instead, then fled the city. He soon realized that his Christian followers would pay for what he had done if he did not return—and so he did. The enraged townspeople dragged him through the streets, stripped him naked, stabbed him all over his body with their pencils and quills, then smeared him with honey and suspended him in a basket in a town square, where the wasps and bees would swarm into the basket and devour him.

Several of his followers were discovered and dragged down by the mob, who ripped their bellies open with their bare hands. Corn was packed into their abdomens and pigs were set on them. The pigs devoured the corn—and their intestines.

Understand what the tribulation is all about,and it's not death of the flesh,rather deception, which could lead to the death of your very soul...

 

[n2thelight]

Do people really understand what the tribulation,as well as the millennium is all about?I think not!!!!

[n2thelight]

On 8/24/2017 at 1:19 AM, Psalms37:4 said:

 

Really? That would be new news to me. Where are the 7 seals of Rev mentioned in Mark 13?

Here you go

https://www.theseason.org/mark/mark13.htm