Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ChristB4us]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Back to Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. That means God saw the fathers of the Jews as the 1st fruits of the 1st harvest. However, since the Jews served other gods, they would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the 1st harvest.

So Christ returns and the dead in Christ rise first. Then after, the alive believers are caught up. The harvest is over.

That brings us to the 144,000. They are called first fruits also, because they are the first fruits of the second harvest. You don't get a harvest with God unless you have acceptable first fruits.

So Christ will return for another harvest. It will occur at the sixth seal and it will be the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is harvested. They that are Christs at His coming will also be raptured. 

The fig tree has two harvests. Jacob had two brides.

So you want two events. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. That is correct. And yet there are two harvests. The first harvest is the grain harvest and is the mostly Gentile Church. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel has it's eyes opened. The seed of the woman, which is the 12 tribes across the earth is second harvest, the fruit harvest.

Thanks for sharing, however...

The resurrection of the O.T. saints and the N.T. saints will happen at the same time before the living is caught up with them to sit down at the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the pre great tribulation rapture event for when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Edited April 13, 2023 by ChristB4us

[seeking the lost]

On 4/11/2023 at 6:00 PM, The Light said:

The dead in Christ rise first.

You have the wrong last day. 

The Church will be raptured when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, before the seals are opened. The second harvest will occur at the end of the tribulation which occurs at the sixth seal. Then there is the Judgement of the dead after the trumpets and of course at the end of the 1000 years

There are many last days but only one has a resurrection connected with it.  Your reasoning is in line with a cunningly devised story.  Have you found a key to add a resurrection before the first resurrection?  The Bible is clear that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

Thanks for sharing, however...

The resurrection of the O.T. saints and the N.T. saints will happen at the same time before the living is caught up with them to sit down at the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the pre great tribulation rapture event for when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Excellent choice of scripture. I, however, also have a however, but I'm not sure you will be able to follow.

The scripture that you provided has this quote. "26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."

This references those who are Jews. At the time of their harvest, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will go to heaven as they are raised ON THE LAST DAY.

The last day is the end of the age that takes place at the 6th seal. It is the coming of Jesus that takes place in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We also see this harvest HERE.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We can prove that this when the Jews are raised and raptured, HERE.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Jacob had two brides. The first bride was not the chosen bride. The first bride is the mostly Gentile Church. The Lord comes for the Church before the seals are opened. The dead in Christ will rise first. Then the Lord will return for the alive believers. Then the seals are opened and God turns His attention to Israel.

When the Lord comes for the chosen bride it will be after the tribulation.... immediately after the tribulation. This time the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This is when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are raised and go to the marriage supper. 

So after the tribulation, the Lord comes for the second bride, and they sing the song of Moses in heaven. Meanwhile, the one year wrath of God begins. Tribulation and wrath are not the same event.

 

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Only Jesus can prove this to you, but if you continue to rely on what you are taught rather than prove it with Him, then He will have to d a miracle.

So naive.  I learn from what the Bible SAYS, just like the Bereans did with what Paul said.  And you haven't shown any verses that support what you say.

4 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

So may every former believer and unrepentant saints living in sin go to Jesus for help and the truth so that they too may lean on Him to depart from iniquity & be ready to go for when the Bridegroom comes or else risk becoming castaways.

And as for your slight about castaways being wrong in the KJV, try ignoring Jesus's words here for not being ready as found abiding in Him by His grace & by His help.

How about some honesty here?  I haven't ignored any of Jesus' words, as you insinuate.  I told you what the Greek word MEANS.  I guess you are one of those KJV ONLY types.  There's no truth there.

4 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

  Again below as this warning is real for any disciple that stops abiding in Him.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you understand metaphors at all?  What do you think this warning is about?

4 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

The warning to the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So your translation of 1 Corinthians 9:27 as not being a castaway is wrong.

No, the KJV is wrong about that word.  But you are free to your own opinions.

[CaptWalker]

Well this may be a first for me as far as responding to a topic with already so many replies, since i never want to come across as that kind of person that says HERE IS WHAT I HAVE TO SAY in spite of what already has been said and made very clear, but at the the same time i just felt like i had to throw this thought out there...which is that the phrase "any moment rapture" or any variation of that is not found anywhere in the Bible, and while i am not one of those who poo-poos on the word Rapture simply because it is not written even though HARPAZO  is(which is something someone else may want to discuss)...i am still open to the idea of maybe a mid-trib event, but in no way am open to us/Christians being "taken" and then an entire 7 year period after that, which to me isnt even open for discussion, and i dont want to sound like a knowitall but will at least say right here and now that i'm 110% sure that it will NOT happen that way, period.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by CaptWalker

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Excellent choice of scripture. I, however, also have a however, but I'm not sure you will be able to follow.

The scripture that you provided has this quote. "26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."

This references those who are Jews. At the time of their harvest, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will go to heaven as they are raised ON THE LAST DAY.

This is about a warning to saved believers to strive to enter thru the straight gate as Matthew 7:13-27 gives the same warning of false prophets coming in to broaden the way in the worship place which they did, by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. 

God the Father provided only one way to approach him in worship, prayer, and fellowship and that is by the only way of the Son John 14:6. That by only honoring the Son is how we are to honor the Father as this standard of judgment is raised over all believers per John 5:22-23.  To climb up any other way, even by way of the "Trinity" ( the broad way ) is not how we are to honor the Father by and indeed, by climbing up any other way than the Son is a work of iniquity John 10:1,7-9.

That is why Luke 13:24 stats out the way that He did.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Also, the last verse signify that O.T. saints & N.T. saints of the dead shall be resurrected to join the Bridegroom in Heaven at the Marriage Supper which will also include the living at the time of this resurrection that are found as abiding in Him.

By comparing Matthew 7:13-27 with Luke 13:24-30, you may see how that falling away from the faith ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) is why God has to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event. 1 Peter 4:17

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

So naive.

I leave it to God to cause the increase, brother.  I am not belittling you of your level of awareness nor lack of intellect or whatever.  I was addressing what I had observed among those who claim to be scholars of Greek & Hebrew for why I am disagreeing with your translation.  Man's intelligence is not the same as the wisdom of the Lord for why & how even babes can have His wisdom.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

We agree to disagree.  All that is left for us is to pray for one another and hope in the Lord that He may continue His iron sharpen iron ministry between us at another time.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, CaptWalker said:

Well this may be a first for me as far as responding to a topic with already so many replies, since i never want to come across as that kind of person that says HERE IS WHAT I HAVE TO SAY in spite of what already has been said and made very clear, but at the the same time i just felt like i had to throw this thought out there...which is that the phrase "any moment rapture" or any variation of that is not found anywhere in the Bible, and while i am not one of those who poo-poos on the word Rapture simply because it is not written even though HARPAZO  is(which is something someone else may want to discuss)...i am still open to the idea of maybe a mid-trib event, but in no way am open to us/Christians being "taken" and then an entire 7 year period after that, which to me isnt even open for discussion, and i dont want to sound like a knowitall but will at least say right here and now that i'm 110% sure that it will NOT happen that way, period.  

Tell me why Jesus is warning this church below and what the consequence is for not repenting and then explain what is the reward would be for repenting?

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

 

[The Light]

5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

There are many last days but only one has a resurrection connected with it.  Your reasoning is in line with a cunningly devised story.  Have you found a key to add a resurrection before the first resurrection? 

Yes I have found a key. It's called the truth.

Please explain this if you can. 1 Thes 4 states that the dead in Christ rise first and then alive believers are caught up to meet them in the clouds. 1 Corinthians 15 says the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. How can they be the resurrection given the parameters.

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Also in Daniel 12 it says MANY OF THEM that sleep in the ground shall arise. Why not all of the them?

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

 

 

The Bible is clear that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation.

Just wondering if you realize that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal? 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

This is about a warning to saved believers to strive to enter thru the straight gate as Matthew 7:13-27 gives the same warning of false prophets coming in to broaden the way in the worship place which they did, by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. 

God the Father provided only one way to approach him in worship, prayer, and fellowship and that is by the only way of the Son John 14:6. That by only honoring the Son is how we are to honor the Father as this standard of judgment is raised over all believers per John 5:22-23.  To climb up any other way, even by way of the "Trinity" ( the broad way ) is not how we are to honor the Father by and indeed, by climbing up any other way than the Son is a work of iniquity John 10:1,7-9.

That is why Luke 13:24 stats out the way that He did.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Also, the last verse signify that O.T. saints & N.T. saints of the dead shall be resurrected to join the Bridegroom in Heaven at the Marriage Supper which will also include the living at the time of this resurrection that are found as abiding in Him.

By comparing Matthew 7:13-27 with Luke 13:24-30, you may see how that falling away from the faith ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) is why God has to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event. 1 Peter 4:17

Just wondering why you use the term Pre great tribulation rapture event and not pre tribulation rapture?