Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[BlazyJon]

2 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

Don't respond to me with your questions but answer what i asked , who is withtold who or who is left before who in 2 Thess 2:6-9 , if you don't answer then you just can't defend your post-trib theory simple as that .

I cannot tell what your question is.  "who is with(told)? who or who is left before who in 2 Thess 2:6-9"?  I really don't understand your question, please explain  

[Amazing Horse]

13 minutes ago, BlazyJon said:

I cannot tell what your question is.  "who is with(told)? who or who is left before who in 2 Thess 2:6-9"?  I really don't understand your question, please explain  

Sorry my keybord moved i have no idea why i write withtold , i mean withhold .

 

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth (1) that he might be revealed in his time.(2)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let(3), until he be taken out of the way(4).

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

1What wiitholdeth ?

2Who might be revealed in his time ?

3Who is allowing what now  and untill when is he doing it ?

4Who and where is taken out ?

 

[BlazyJon]

6 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

Sorry my keybord moved i have no idea why i write withtold , i mean withhold .

 

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth (1) that he might be revealed in his time.(2)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let(3), until he be taken out of the way(4).

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

1What wiitholdeth ?

2Who might be revealed in his time ?

3Who is allowing what now  and untill when is he doing it ?

4Who and where is taken out ?

 

1. What witholdeth?

PM me.

2. Who might be revealed in his time?

the lawless one who will be the beast (the son of perdition).  First it was whatever Caesar came against Jerusalem in AD 70, then this son of perdition will come a second time as Beast.

3 and 4 you have to PM me.  It's that simple.  It looks as though you want to know who the Restrainer is.  Or the with-holder is, is another way of putting it.  I know who the Restrainer is, but I can't just blast it on the internet.

My question to you:  Do you see Paul writing down with ink who it is?  No, you don't, so unless you ask someone who says "PM me", or ask God by testing the spirits, you will by no means know who the Restrainer is.  Or as you put it, the with-holder.

Lastly the Church is surely not the Restrainer.

[Fidei Defensor]

Some thoughts: 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (Revelation 1:7), and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Revelation 19:11-16). 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) 

Notice the Caught Up or Rapture is after Jesus Comes on the Clouds (Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16). 

And Jesus said When He comes on clouds all will see Him: 

"Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah/Christ,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it. 24 For false messiahs/christs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time. 26 “So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it! 27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man[e] comes. 28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near." (Matthew 24:23-28) 

"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen." (Revelation 1:7). 

Some other evidence of a Post Trib [having do go through Trib before Jesus picks us up when He comes on clouds] Rapture/Caught up: 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. ⁹ If anyone has an ear, let him hear.  If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the ^[e]saints," (Revelation 13:7-10),

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore," (Revelation 12:17),

"This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus." (Revelation 14:12) 

"He answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) 

"tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?," (Luke 18:8), 

"Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people." (Matthew 24:9-11). 

[Psalms37:4]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:09 PM, Last Daze said:

Timing.  At the 6th seal, when the sky is rolled back and they see He who sits on the throne and the Lamb, they know they've messed up.  Years later,after the 6th plague (2nd woe), they think they've won by defeating the two witnesses.

Boy! You just made this up didn't you? It doesn't say "they see He who sits on the throne."

Nobody on earth can see God sitting at His throne no matter how good their vision.

Revelation 6:16 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

And it doesn't seem like they think they won either. Seems more like they're afraid. And it seems more like God is the winner here.

Revelation 11:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹¹ Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. ¹² And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. ¹³ In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:32 PM, Last Daze said:

We don't know for sure but my guess is that ~3 years lapse between the sixth seal and the return of Christ. 

No, this is false. One of the event that happens in the 6th seal is the sealing of the 144,000. 

They don't get sealed 3 years just before Christ returns.

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

10 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Boy! You just made this up didn't you? It doesn't say "they see He who sits on the throne."

Nobody on earth can see God sitting at His throne no matter how good their vision.

People can see into the spiritual realm if God wants them to. 

• Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” 16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Then Elisha prayed and said, “O Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the Lord opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.  2 Kings 6:15-17

If they don't see Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb then how utterly random it is what they ask to be hidden from.

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:16-17

That's a bizarre thing to ask for if they've never seen it.  And who all says that?  The ungodly from around who fear the coming wrath of God.

• Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.  Revelation 6:15

So, these ungodly people from all around the world are going to simultaneously ask to be hidden from something they don't acknowledge and haven't seen?    I see it as much more plausible that the sky is rolled back allowing people to see into the spiritual realm and that what they say is based on what they've just seen.

Since the nature of your replies come across as provocative, I won't be responding to them in the future.  I'm not interested in that kind of discourse.  Love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself.

[Psalms37:4]

On 9/28/2017 at 7:15 AM, Last Daze said:

People can see into the spiritual realm if God wants them to. 

• Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” 16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Then Elisha prayed and said, “O Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the Lord opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.  2 Kings 6:15-17

God never reveals Himself to the wicked, only to the righteous. Revelation 6:15-17 is not telling you everyone on earth will see God. 

Revelation 6:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Using God's words, seems like you're willing to say anything to win an argument.

 

On 9/28/2017 at 7:15 AM, Last Daze said:

If they don't see Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb then how utterly random it is what they ask to be hidden from.

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:16-17

Do you not know? There will be coming an event and when it happens the whole world will see and realize the tribulation is upon them. It's already given in the bible by Jesus. You don't need to make things up if you don't have the answer. Tampering with God's words is not a good idea.

God even said "If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book." Why do you think so many people believe they must go through the tribulation while others see God's salvation and deliverance through Jesus?

 

On 9/28/2017 at 7:15 AM, Last Daze said:

That's a bizarre thing to ask for if they've never seen it.  And who all says that?  The ungodly from around who fear the coming wrath of God.

• Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.  Revelation 6:15

So, these ungodly people from all around the world are going to simultaneously ask to be hidden from something they don't acknowledge and haven't seen?    I see it as much more plausible that the sky is rolled back allowing people to see into the spiritual realm and that what they say is based on what they've just seen.

Exactly my point. These are ungodly people. God will never reveal Himself allowing them to see Him in heaven.

You're just forming your own conclusion because you don't understand this prophecy. You can't make things up just to fill in the blank when it comes to the bible.

 

On 9/28/2017 at 7:15 AM, Last Daze said:

Love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself.

Loving God means accepting and following every word in the bible exactly the way it's written, nothing more nothing less.

Loving your neighbors means promoting the truth.

 

1 Timothy 2:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

I have not visited this forum, in quite a while. When I first came to it, Christians who believed in Historic Pre-millenialism (post-trib rapture) were either a minority, or a majority hiding in the closet. It was almost as if, we did not know that for the first 1800 years of church history, a pre-tribuation return of Christ was virtually unheard of. A generation of Christians raised on fictional books and movies, and preached to by pastors who had learned in seminaries that pushed the Scofield Reference Bible, had managed to drive those who believed in the Bible only as authoritative, into hiding.

My first few years in the chat here, if I ever managed to mention that I believed that the church would one day suffer in the great tribulation, I would be pounced upon by half a dozen attackers, who would fire questions at me faster than I could possibly respond. Mind you, most could not defend a pre-trib rapture, but they could try to make a post tribber, defend their positon, with a "what about this" and "what about that" series of questions, that they did not really want to hear the answers to.

How do I know this? Because they never or nearly never responded to the answers, no interest in discussing what they just  heard, instead, they just moved on to their next baseless attack on my position.

Now (be patient, I am working  toward something) after these "defense of" eschatology threads began, a clear trend began to develop. People began posting why they believed why they believed what they believed. It was not that long, before what had appeared to be a minority position (post trip rapture) became the thread that had the most contribution. To me, looking at these forums, it became obvious why - there was not biblical material to work with, more to write about, that other positions could muster together.

This seemed to have the effect, of encouraging others to come out of their closets, and may who had been on the fence, were coming to understand the scriptural case, for the post-trib rapture. Indeed, the reason I seldom post here myself, is two fold. One, the case for post-tribism is so strong and obvious, that it just becomes redundant, and it is tiring to go around in circles, with those who are more interested in clinging to what amounts to an indefensible view, than they are interested in learning and accepting scripture. The second reason is, that there are plenty here on the forums, who have a passion for defending the position that has the greatest amount of scriptural support.

While it may appear that I have just made so accusations of incompetence and sincerity of those who do not believe as I do, that is not at all the case. I admire and encourage, those who passionately believe and fight to preserve what they think, is the truth. Of course, zeal is no guarantee of truth, Saul of Tarsus was quite passionate.

Rather than posting this to provoke those who are not post-tribbers (remember this thread is about defending the post trib position, not about defending the pre-trib position as there is a thread already for that purpose). I should, however, take this opportunity, to thank all of those who have taken the time to make the case for pre-trib beleif for making the case for post-trib belief even stronger. It may have been un-intentional, but the effect is real and I really, actually, truly, appreiated it.

I want to just encourage those who are here to speak to the purpose of this thread. Thank you, for doing that needed work, you are helping to make the church strong.

Now (I said I would get to this eventually) I would like to insert a quote, that describes a need, that you  people are fulfilling. It is a long read, and many will not finish it, even if they made it this far. I may  have  been posted here previously, in whole or in part, but if so, here it is again:

Letter from Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

 
"The world is deathly ill.  It is dying.  The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate.  Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do.  They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world.  It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

Christians are ambassadors for Christ.  They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world.  And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews.  Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred.  As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed.  Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."  We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true.  Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages.  I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things: 
and I will be His God,
and he shall be My son."

This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
"Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence.
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that.  Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation."  Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse.  During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)

I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day  I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"

"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

"That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – just in time…"

My African friends were nodding and smiling.
Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

" In the sweet, by and by,
we shall meet on that beautiful shore."

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)

for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
Hallelujah!"

- Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

That finishes the quote from sister Corrie, but a came back to add this post script:

It is noteworthy, that in this thread of controversy and passionate belief, that people have been so well behaved, that unlike other controversial topics in these forums, we (administrators) have seldom had to intervene against abusive posters. That is true no matter what the position held by the posters is and so, I want to thank all for their decency and good citizenship.

[Uriah]

Sorry if this is redundant. A VERY clear portion of scripture regarding the post trib view comes from:    

Rev. 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Of course we could go directly to the ONLY TWO examples given by Jesus on the subject from the Old Testament...The story of Noah and the story of Lot. In both cases God's people were NOT delivered until the VERY DAY that a terrible judgement came down on the wicked people from out of the sky!  He follows it up by saying, "... it will be just like this when the Son of Man comes." 

Finally, all it takes is some simple math, like adding one plus one! At the rapture (whichever position you take) there MUST be a resurrection. (that's ONE)

Any other resurrection cannot take place until AFTER 1,000 yrs. Yet we see in Rev. 7 there is a great multitude who came out of the great tribulation standing before the throne. Not likely to have been able to sneak in some other way. So it would require another rapture and resurrection. Cannot be.