Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[WilliamL]

On 2/14/2021 at 3:35 PM, Montana Marv said:

This is post trib or the onset of the Mill.

These are those who came  out of this pre Mill time. 80 to 90 percent of the Body of Christ miss this period of time. The Body is One  Body. I was purchased by Christ,  I did nothing to deserve it. He washed me in His blood. I didn't wash myself or my garments in the blood of the Lamb. What  He has chosen to be of His elect, they are Holy. When did they become  holy, at their election. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv

Had 30 below 2 nights ago. 

 

He washed our bodies/selves/souls in His blood. But our garments are our works (Rev. 19:8), not ourselves, and those works are always flawed in some way. Our works after we have received salvation are what determine our rewards in heaven, above and beyond salvation.

Edited February 22, 2021 by WilliamL

[TCC]

I believe the pretrib rapture because no other arguments hold water for me. I have looked at 15 hours of the best debates. My unique perspective is that Rev 12 woman and child = seals sign seen during the age of grace. The child going up is the church (the body). Since the sign is viewed during the age of grace, it would figure that rapture would be too. If that makes sense. 

[Diaste]

On 8/4/2021 at 10:10 PM, TCC said:

I believe the pretrib rapture because no other arguments hold water for me. I have looked at 15 hours of the best debates. My unique perspective is that Rev 12 woman and child = seals sign seen during the age of grace. The child going up is the church (the body). Since the sign is viewed during the age of grace, it would figure that rapture would be too. If that makes sense. 

Debates? Let me challenge to dig up what the scriptures say and let the Spirit lead.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I have a question about the rapture, and the question is open to all positions related to the timing of the rapture. Yes, I know, this thread is about the defense of the Post Trib Rapture. I don't think however, that Post Trib Rapturists, need to reply, to the question, not do Pre-wrath Rapturinst. I am really looking to see how pre-trib and mid-trib rapturiest, answer this question. Here it is:

Did Jesus (in the gospels naturally) talk about the rapture, or did any of the 11 Apostles (who were with Him to hear His teachings) tell us what Jesus had told them during is earthly life about the rapture?

If so, what did Hesus say about the rapture. If not you can say that, but don't go on about why you believe as you do about the subject. For the purpose of this post, I just want to know about what Jesus said about it.

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have a question about the rapture, and the question is open to all positions related to the timing of the rapture. Yes, I know, this thread is about the defense of the Post Trib Rapture. I don't think however, that Post Trib Rapturists, need to reply, to the question, not do Pre-wrath Rapturinst. I am really looking to see how pre-trib and mid-trib rapturiest, answer this question. Here it is:

Did Jesus (in the gospels naturally) talk about the rapture, or did any of the 11 Apostles (who were with Him to hear His teachings) tell us what Jesus had told them during is earthly life about the rapture?

If so, what did Hesus say about the rapture. If not you can say that, but don't go on about why you believe as you do about the subject. For the purpose of this post, I just want to know about what Jesus said about it.

Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with the great sound of trumpet to gather the Elect from the four wind, from one end of heaven to another.

According to post tribbers the above happens after the great tribulation which means Jesus Will then make a spectacular U-Turn in the sky to return the saints to the earth where they hv just been gathered.

The saints in GT are destined to go into captivity or died by the sword. No rapture for them 

Imagine antichrist has been death, GT is over, the world returns to peace,  and then Jesus send angels to escape the saints from what ? SMH.

Edited September 7, 2021 by R. Hartono

[TCC]

On 9/6/2021 at 8:10 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have a question about the rapture, and the question is open to all positions related to the timing of the rapture. Yes, I know, this thread is about the defense of the Post Trib Rapture. I don't think however, that Post Trib Rapturists, need to reply, to the question, not do Pre-wrath Rapturinst. I am really looking to see how pre-trib and mid-trib rapturiest, answer this question. Here it is:

Did Jesus (in the gospels naturally) talk about the rapture, or did any of the 11 Apostles (who were with Him to hear His teachings) tell us what Jesus had told them during is earthly life about the rapture?

If so, what did Hesus say about the rapture. If not you can say that, but don't go on about why you believe as you do about the subject. For the purpose of this post, I just want to know about what Jesus said about it.

On the video below at the 38:13 mark, Andy gives a chart comparison between the Olivet and UpperRoom Discourse. It is a pretty good video on the topic.

Edit by Omegaman 3.0
Our policy here is that videos may only be posted in the Video Section of our forum TCC, so I had to delete it from this thread. I will watch in though, and see what I think. For those interested, the video could be found on youtube by searching for:

The Rapture Sermon Series 21. Matthew 24-25 Explained - Part 1

In addition, here is a more specific article on Matthew as it pertains to the rapture: 

IS THE RAPTURE IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE? Pt. 2 – Grace Gospel Press

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with the great sound of trumpet to gather the Elect from the four wind, from one end of heaven to another.

According to post tribbers the above happens after the great tribulation which means Jesus Will then make a spectacular U-Turn in the sky to return the saints to the earth where they hv just been gathered.

The saints in GT are destined to go into captivity or died by the sword. No rapture for them 

Imagine antichrist has been death, GT is over, the world returns to peace,  and then Jesus send angels to escape the saints from what ? SMH.

According to post tribbers?

Let's get the context of the verse you specified:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I tend to agree that the rapture is indicated in verse 31, at least it sure sounds like a good fit, gathering the elect and all. I am somewhat surprised that a pre-tribber would point that out, but good for you. It is not what I was expecting, I was expecting silence. 

However, did you miss the part where Jesus said "Immediately after the tribulation"?

So it is not "according to post tribbers", it is according to Jesus, unless you mean to say that Jesus is a post tribber. After all, it is His words we are examining. He is the one that said He would be gathering the elect after the tribulation, not the post tribbers, or was Jesus wrong?

You also pointed out that:

"Jesus Will then make a spectacular U-Turn in the sky to return the saints to the earth where they hv just been gathered."

Jesus (the Son of Man in that passage) would not be making a U-Turn. If He did, that would take He and the saints to Heaven, not back to earth. Going down to earth, means that the saints make the U-turn, while Jesus descends with that gathered elect. That way they are all together, not scattered all over the earth. Either way it happens, someone has to make a U-Turn, unless they all just hang there in mid air.

You said:

Quote

The saints in GT are destined to go into captivity or died by the sword. No rapture for them 

I agree there, at least for some, for many, perhaps for most or even for all. I think we see that very clearly in Rev 20:4

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. "

The Lord does truly love those who persevere in their faith to the end, even to tortuous persecution and death. There are faithful witnesses (also known as martyrs). I would love to have the honor of dying that way, but I don't think I will be here (or there in the Holy Land) when He returns.

Quote

Imagine antichrist has been death, GT is over, the world returns to peace,  and then Jesus send angels to escape the saints from what ? SMH.

From what? From the wrath of God upon those who rejected Him, and sided with the A/C. Most of them I suspect will die, many might wish they had, but that does not mean that God is not compassionate enough to still grant faith and repentance to some He has set aside for salvation.

BTW, it is not that that it is that the GT is over, the world returns to peace and then Jesus sends angels to escape the saints, you miss the order of the events. It is that there is a GT, Jesus appears, gathers the saints, returns to earth, and then after whatever problems the unsaved endure  - THEN there is peace for 1000 years. Of course all of this assumes that this part of Revelation is literal, not figurative, it may or may not be.

Why would you be shaking you head, as though the idea that there will be a great tribulation, then a second coming or Christ, His parousia, His appearing, His gathering of His elect, His return, to be followed by the millenium, as we already saw in Rev 20, which went on to say:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

As we have seen, these things all come out of scripture, which is where our understanding of things to come should be derived. Do you really want to shake your head at that?

Anyway Hartono, thanks for the reply. Not what I was expecting, but it was a good reply, thank you!

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

According to post tribbers?

Let's get the context of the verse you specified:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I tend to agree that the rapture is indicated in verse 31, at least it sure sounds like a good fit, gathering the elect and all. I am somewhat surprised that a pre-tribber would point that out, but good for you. It is not what I was expecting, I was expecting silence. 

However, did you miss the part where Jesus said "Immediately after the tribulation"?

So it is not "according to post tribbers", it is according to Jesus, unless you mean to say that Jesus is a post tribber. After all, it is His words we are examining. He is the one that said He would be gathering the elect after the tribulation, not the post tribbers, or was Jesus wrong?

You also pointed out that:

"Jesus Will then make a spectacular U-Turn in the sky to return the saints to the earth where they hv just been gathered."

Jesus (the Son of Man in that passage) would not be making a U-Turn. If He did, that would take He and the saints to Heaven, not back to earth. Going down to earth, means that the saints make the U-turn, while Jesus descends with that gathered elect. That way they are all together, not scattered all over the earth. Either way it happens, someone has to make a U-Turn, unless they all just hang there in mid air.

You said:

I agree there, at least for some, for many, perhaps for most or even for all. I think we see that very clearly in Rev 20:4

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. "

The Lord does truly love those who persevere in their faith to the end, even to tortuous persecution and death. There are faithful witnesses (also known as martyrs). I would love to have the honor of dying that way, but I don't think I will be here (or there in the Holy Land) when He returns.

From what? From the wrath of God upon those who rejected Him, and sided with the A/C. Most of them I suspect will die, many might wish they had, but that does not mean that God is not compassionate enough to still grant faith and repentance to some He has set aside for salvation.

BTW, it is not that that it is that the GT is over, the world returns to peace and then Jesus sends angels to escape the saints, you miss the order of the events. It is that there is a GT, Jesus appears, gathers the saints, returns to earth, and then after whatever problems the unsaved endure  - THEN there is peace for 1000 years. Of course all of this assumes that this part of Revelation is literal, not figurative, it may or may not be.

Why would you be shaking you head, as though the idea that there will be a great tribulation, then a second coming or Christ, His parousia, His appearing, His gathering of His elect, His return, to be followed by the millenium, as we already saw in Rev 20, which went on to say:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

As we have seen, these things all come out of scripture, which is where our understanding of things to come should be derived. Do you really want to shake your head at that?

Anyway Hartono, thanks for the reply. Not what I was expecting, but it was a good reply, thank you!

Nice talking to you Omega.

Its not our understanding on Eschatology that can take us to heaven, but our sharing happiness and forgiveness with people. Different views are common and should be allowed.

Jesus said Matt 24 ⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come". If the sun will be darkened first be4 the rapture you dont need to keep watching, just look outside whether the sun still shines, if it still shiness then Jesus will not come back for sure.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

Nice talking to you Omega.

Its not our understanding on Eschatology that can take us to heaven, but our sharing happiness and forgiveness with people. Different views are common and should be allowed.

You too, and I totally agree with the above.

[Dennis1209]

Good morning to you all...

I'm about 18 years late to the party [posted in 2003] 

Pertaining and related to ones position, on the timing of Christ's return for His bride. How many more 'resurrections' are yet to come, and who, when and why? 

I maintain there are three; pre-tribulation; post Tribulation; and post millennial. 

The way I interpret it: John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Satan is still the temporary god of this world, men's hearts are evil. Men and woman will be persecuted, tortured and die for the Gospel and testimony of our Lord and Savior. Tribulation comes in various forms and groups; the Romans, the Muslims, atheists, the unregenerate; the occult, all spawned and inspired by the Devil. 

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What is the whole purpose of the Tribulation to begin with? Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

No doubt, this is the seven year Tribulation, Daniel's 70th week; to include the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble. Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Who is "he shall be saved out of it"? Israel's final restoration, the Lord is not dealing with the church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If the great Tribulation is not the wrath and judgment of God, I don't know what is? Question: Why would the Lord harshly judge, beat up and punish His bride. It's not the purpose of the Tribulation. Christian's are not going to be tested, the Jews and the Christ rejecting world is.

The Tribulation deals with Israel [God's chosen people], a sinful wicked world that rejects Christ as their Savior; and says nothing about the church on Earth during these seven years. This omission is glaring, in light of the church being mentioned 19 times, prior to Revelation chapter 4: 

With my preceding interpretations and thoughts in mind; whether you agree with my hermeneutics or not; the question still remains:

What is the purpose for the Lord to severely beat up and kill His betrothed bride, before the wedding and wedding feast?

In secular terms, that would be spousal abuse.