Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Isa]

Be patient, humble and stay away from telling people they read or support demonic doctrines.

That's some good advice.

I would suggest that people ,be humble,be patient,and stop supporting and or teaching demonic doctrines.

Now that is some good advice.

Well as a humble , patient, servant of the Lord I will cease to talk to those who spread these false teachings because it only seems to fuel their fire of indignation.

Goodnight my friend

[exrockstar]

There is only one 2nd coming and it is after the tribulation matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27,there is no 3rd coming at all so if the rapture is at ''the coming of the Lord''which it obviously is you have the verses you quoted them 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 then you can accept no other view except post trib as biblical.

The 2nd coming is when His feet touch the earth.

1. when Jesus came 2000 years ago is one.

2. When His feet touch the Mount of Olives is two (Zechariah 14:4).

that rapture stuff is not a second coming.

The EARTH will see BOTH of His visitations. That is a "second coming."

You obviously were taught by internet articles, misguided people and a stubborn person called "self."

I read your posts and if no one has told you....you need to get over yourself.

Be patient, humble and stay away from telling people they read or support demonic doctrines.

That's some good advice.

I was taught by the Holy Spirit.

If the ''rapture'' is not the 2nd coming nor at the 2nd coming then why does it say in 1st thess 4:15-17 that it takes place

''AT THE COMING OF THE LORD''?

does His feet touch the ground in that passage?

does He come and tell the whole earth "Hey everyone I am here. It's over. For those that know me cool. For those that

do not my name is Jesus." The answer is obviously "no." So that means that it is NOT a second coming.

We have, on record, the things that Jesus did when He was here on earth. We can agree that was His first coming.

The earth watched Him.

Some people accepted and some didn't.

BUT EVERYONE got an opportunity to see who Jesus was but whether they accepted (or not) the EARTH saw Him.

1 Thes 4:15-17 is NOT Christ touching the ground and letting the EARTH know He is here.

When all nations, All religions, All races, All believers and non believers, All ages, Every country,

ALL TV Stations, ALL INTERNET broadcasting, Newspapers, Every man woman and child see Christ THEN THAT IS A ONE

GREAT ENTRANCE and you can label that a "second coming."

I read the passage like this:

"16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. "

YOU read the passage like this:

"16For the Lord himself, ALONG WITH HIS ARMY, will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. "

Don't add words to scripture. And if youre going to assume then don't get twisted up when people don't agree with you.

Don't let your emotions take hold of the doctrine that you know.

YOU are tying in 1 Thess 4:16 with Rev 19:14.

People love to assume.

A pastor friend of mine is like that and that can be a good thing and that can also be a bad thing.

I personally try to stay away from assumptions.

[Isa]

1 Tessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

We all agree that these verses above are talking about the Lord coming for his bride the church.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Now lets look at the verse above: This verse speaks of the resurrection of those who are dead in the Lord. The Lord brings there souls with Him and their bodies will be changed as they meet those who are living and changed in the air. It is the souls of those who are dead that the Lord brings with him, not the armies. The bible tells us Jesus will bring those souls back with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:13,14

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The dead recieve their immortal in corruptable bodies as they rise from the graves and the living are changed in the twinkling of the eye.

1 Corinthians 15"52,53

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This can not happen at the end of the tribulation. If it was to happn at the end of the tribulation there would be no-one left to go into the millennial kingdom, for the church, the Israelites, and the 144,000 be gathered by the angels and they would be changed in the twinkling of the eye to be with the Lord in the air. The wicked that includes any Israelite , Jew etc etc etc who have not put their faith and trust and believed in the Lord WILLbe destroyed and placed into outer darkness

Jesus said before he left this world, that He was going away to prepare a place for us, so that where He is we can also be.

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

This place that Jesus prepared for us is not here on earth it is in heaven and when He comes He will take us there, that is what was said to His church, so if He was to bring us back to the earth does that not mean He was lying to His church His bride. I don't think so. Another thing He never said was I will take you to the place I have prepared but I need to stop somewhere first before we go there, nop, no sirry, He said where I am there you may be also.

A husband before He gets married prepares a place for His bride so that they may be together. This is the only reason why they may leave the fathers house.

Genesis 2:24

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

We are leaving this house that the Father made for His children at the beginning of time, to be taken to heaven where our husband has prepared a place for us. He will come again to visit His Fathers house that He made for man, but He will bring His bride with Him and those who were invited to the wedding supper. These make up the armies of heaven.

Revelation 19:13,14

13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

The Lord returns with a heavenly army, their clothes are of fine linen, white and they have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. For us to be called the armies of heaven we must originate from heaven.

Revelation 15:1-3

1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

[allandnull]

The entire "pre-trib," "mid-trib," "post-trib" argument is based on a common ignorance. All three views and the terms used to describe them have one thing in common: a "7 years great tribulation." Since this phrase is nowhere in the Bible, to try to determine events in relation to it is to fumble around in darkness. To reiterate: There is no mention of any "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible. All it takes is for you to find one verse to prove me wrong. When it's not written you are not obligated to believe it! Actually, you're better off not to believe things people learned from other people who learned it from their teachers that were taught it by those before them, even if there were some wonderful people mixed up in the chains of human tradition and doctrines of men.

It took me a long time to learn to do this and I'm still working on it. Admit it's not directly taught, only obliquely referred to. People give lip-service to the authority of the Bible but don't know how to implement it. Confine your expression of faith to the actual words the Holy Spirit chose to make His revelation known. Through the use of concordances it can authoritatively be established whether something is written or not. The original language should be consulted to verify things of importance. That's it in a nutshell. Now, with the touch of a button you can do these searches that were a lot more work when I was starting out to pursue an accurate understanding of Jesus's word. You don't have to be a Greek scholar either to use this free software. Remember however, concordances let you check a word in all its occurences and are a better help to what God means. Lexicons are often based on usage, that is, what's already been used to represent the original. Any of them let you change a word to mean something here and another thing there. They're good to give a general overview of a word meaning, but you should find a word that best fits all its occurences. Use a concordance. Men use words inconsistent with the original because they want to be the authorities about what God meant to say. This way they justify their popular doctrines. What the true disciple does is find out what God actually said or did not say.

Thankfully, we aren't completely dependant on crossing every doctrinal "t" and dotting every Bible knowledge "i" in order to walk in His presence. God looks on the heart. But we'd be fools to say a right understanding of His gift to us of the written Logos is irrelevant.

[Fraught]

this thread is supposed to be a defense of post-trib, i thought. no persons should be defending the other. here's my defense of the post-trib:

assuming a pre-trib, we will be at the marriage supper with Christ. a time of celebration and rejoicing. we the bride rejoicing and also Christ, reunited with his bride. since His main goal was to save the world, would this be a good time to celebrate? not for me.

[allandnull]

this thread is supposed to be a defense of post-trib, i thought.

So defend it! The positions of "pre-, mid-, or, post-" TRIBULATION depend on there being a "seven years great tribulation." There is no mention of any "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible. All it takes is for you to find one verse to prove me wrong. When it's not written nobody (following Jesus) is under any obligation to believe it!

How to implement the authority of Scripture: Confine your expression of faith to the actual words the Holy Spirit chose to make His revelation known. Through the use of concordances it can authoritatively be established whether something is written or not. The original language should be consulted to verify things of importance.

Edited January 29, 2008 by allandnull

[Fraught]

this thread is supposed to be a defense of post-trib, i thought.

So defend it! The positions of "pre-, mid-, or, post-" TRIBULATION depend on there being a "seven years great tribulation." There is no mention of any "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible. All it takes is for you to find one verse to prove me wrong. When it's not written nobody (following Jesus) is under any obligation to believe it!

How to implement the authority of Scripture: Confine your expression of faith to the actual words the Holy Spirit chose to make His revelation known. Through the use of concordances it can authoritatively be established whether something is written or not. The original language should be consulted to verify things of importance.

i was actually addressing the pre-tribbers who have their own defense thread. i did not see a no-trib. you should start one.

[Guest]

this thread is supposed to be a defense of post-trib, i thought.

So defend it! The positions of "pre-, mid-, or, post-" TRIBULATION depend on there being a "seven years great tribulation." There is no mention of any "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible. All it takes is for you to find one verse to prove me wrong. When it's not written nobody (following Jesus) is under any obligation to believe it!

How to implement the authority of Scripture: Confine your expression of faith to the actual words the Holy Spirit chose to make His revelation known. Through the use of concordances it can authoritatively be established whether something is written or not. The original language should be consulted to verify things of importance.

There does not need to be a verse that says "seven years great tribulation" anymore than there has to be a word "Trinity" in a verse, for the doctrine to be true.

I never thought I would be in a position to defend the tribulation itself, but I will give it an effort. It will be sufficient for reasonable people to understand that there is a tribulation.

First, where does the term great tribulation come from?

Matt 24:20-21

20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

NASB

In Revelation, John confirms the event:

Rev 7:14-15

14 And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NASB

and posibly:

Rev 2:20-23

21'And I gave her time to repent; and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22'Behold, I will cast her upon a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

NASB

That should sufficiently establish the event, it now remains to determine it's length.

Going back to the Matt 24 passage, we see Jesus said "then there will be a great tribulation", so when is then? We merely have to look earlier in the passage:

Matt 24:15-21

15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation,

NASB

There you see Jesus instructing to look to Daniel, where he talks of an abomination of desolation, when the events spoken of by Daniel take place, you have identified the time frame.

Dan 9:24-27

25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

NASB

The Hebrew word translated to mean weeks above, just means seven, not seven days specifically. Now, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah, is 7 sevens, and 62 sevens, or a total of 69 sevens. Notice something in the passage "after 62 weeks Messiah will be cut off".

You can do a bit of study on these prophecies and history, and determine, that the "weeks" or sevens, are of days, not years, I won't get into that here in detail, as it is well known, easy to research, and tends to lose focus. Suffice it to say, that once one understands that we are talking about seven year periods, we can move forward on our quest.

Notice that in the end of the above passage, we see this:

"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Many of us believe that this is a prophecy of the time we call the Great Tribulation. Why? Because Jesus said so in Matt 24. Notice in the Daniel passage, that in the middle of the seven years (described as a time period of a covenant), there is a change - the sacrifice and grain offering is ended. It is widely believed that this is a reference to the anti-Christ forming a covenant with the Jews, restoring their sacrificial system, but then breaking that covenant after 3 and one half years. Is this an interpretation? Of course it is, but is not an unreasonable one.

Now, going back to the context of Matthew 24, where Jesus was talking about the great tribulation, we now have an understanding from Daniel, that there is a seven year period involved. We also understand that there is an event in this period - the abonination of desolation. That is the point at which the tribulation begins, so, it is not proper to refer to a seven year tribulation, but there is a great tribulation within Daniels 70th week prophecy. Most likely this even happens in "the middle of the week", meaning that there is a three and one half year tribulation. Jesus describes a sequence of events in the Matthew 24 passage. We can break them down into the birthpangs, the great tribulation, and His return. Any study of this period in eschatology should begin in Matthew 24, because Jesus (the highest authority) is speaking in chonological terms in answer to a chonological question, and it is the most thoroughly developed passage in all of scripture about the chronology of the end times events.

Looking at a bit more of the Matt 24 passage, we find this:

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

NASB

Now, I included that part, because it tells us what happens immediately after the tribulation. See the pasage on the sun the moon and the stars being darkened etc? That is a key verse. Because with that you can find many references in the old and new testaments, about these events - which means you can tie the other assages chonologically to the end of the tribulation, should one be inclined to learn more about this time period. (Hint: Isa 13, Isa 24, Eze 32, Joel 2, Joel 3, Mark 13, Luk 21, Acts 2, Rev 6, Rev 8 (perhaps), to name some of the ovious ones).

Let's look at a few more passages to illuminate this murky water.

This passage, I think most would agree, describes a time when the anti-christ sets his mind to persecute the Jew, and guess what, coincidentally, they are protected for three and a half years in the wilderness:

Rev 12:1-6

12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

NASB

In case the 1260 days doesn's add up for you, in Jewish prophetic reckoning, a year consists of 12 months of 30 days each, or 360 days. Therefore, 1260 divided by 360 equals thress and on half.

Other references to 1260 days, you decide if they are relevant:

Rev 11:1-4

"Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

There is at least one more, that I cannot find right now, but if I do, I will add it later.

In any case, I have drifted from the topic. We saw that there is a tribulation, as Jesus said, and we know that it happens at some point in Daniel's seventieth week, almost certainly 3 and one half into it, meaning that it occupies the second half of the week, meaning it is therefore 3 and one half years long, not seven, as many people say.

I will add a bit more in terms of interesting verses to consider, for those who like to try to tie all of these various events together:

2 Thess 2:1-4

2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The people Paul was addressing, were apparently concerned that the Day of the Lord might have already come. That was the thought, that prompted their concern. Paul here, tells them concerning the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him Clearly Paul ties the events together here. He points out, that the Day of the Lord would not come unless something else happens first, that being the rebellion and the man of lawlesses would be revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Would this man not be the antichrist? Paul says that these Christians should know that Jesus was not going to come, before they see the anti-christ. This tells us that Paul understood, that Christians would be around to see the anti-christ revealed. Therefore, Pal did not belive in a pre-trib rapture. Paul also connected His coming and our gathering, to the Day of the Lord. Here is some areas to study, for thos interested. If you follow up the sun, moon star events, you will find they are at the Day of the Lord. Jesus said that this was immediately after the tribulation. Paul stated that the man of lawlessness, who was to be revealed, was doomed to destruction. Does that sound like Daniel?

"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Looks like a match to me. I would like to state here, publicly, that I definetly do not have all the answer to all of the things that play out in the end times scenario. As a former pre-trib believer, I had to abandone that theory becuse of the strength of many bible passages, I could not in good conscience, make myself assume things that would lead to a pre-trib conclusion.

I am curious to know, how many of you have put this all together. Observe the following facts:

1 Jesus said there is a Great Tribulation

2 He said immediatly after that, the stars, moon and sun will no longer give their light.

3 Old Testament prophecies tie these celestail events, to the Day of the Lord.

4 Paul ties the Day of the Lord, the Jesus coming together to gather us to Him.

Does not this add up to the following?

Birthpangs, Great Tribulation, Jesus coming to gather us and the sun, moon, stars thing, along with the day of the Lord and the destruction of the inhabitants of the earth, at that time?

2 Peter 3:9-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

NASB

Where is the millenium in all of this, and who will people it. I have my beliefs, but would like to see yours without injecting my sway here on that. Is there something I have wrong in the above scenario?

I would like to point out, for those that might read this of the pre-trib persuasion, that I understand that the idea that you, or your Christian children or grand children, might have to suffer through the persecution and hard times of the millenium, is not one you can handle or believe. It just doesn't seem right that God would allow your suffering, does it?

We need to always think of these things through God's eyes, not our own. We do not have the authority to decide what is right, what is fair, what is loving. Anythin God decrees is right, fair, and loving. God has always allowed His people to suffer in this life. In these last times (since jesus walked the earth) suffering for Him is the norm. We live in comfort and luxury, and think that somehow, that is the way it out to be. This life is for living for Him, not living for self, we should all pray, that God would grant us the opportunity to do whatever He asks of us, and the grace to do it unto Him, in a way that glorifies Him. Worry and fear, are not of God. Courage, hope, strength, boldness, patience, endurance, things like that, are the evidence of the Spirit in you, pray for these things. God's attitude about the hard times to come is this:

Rev 14:13

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

NASB

Omegaman - willing to be blesed

[Elchingen]

That there will be a great tribulation is not at issue. At issue is the "imaginery" 7 years tribulation.

It is assumed that:

1. Daniel's 70th Seven is the period of tribulation referred to

2. Christ supported this view by referencing Daniel in Matthew 24

3. The abomination of desolation and the temple defilement remain in the future

4. the "antichrist" is a key ingredient to this fulfillment

Above you state that the terms in Matthew 24:29 accompany the Day of the Lord. This is not true. If you reference those terms, they indicate the judgement or death of a nation by God's hand. It was his way of telling a nation, through Ezekiel, Isaiah, or Joel, that their time was up.

Christ specifically used this term to let his disciples know that Jerusalem and Israel would be decimated, and that the timing would be with the temple defilement by the Romans.

Because it is always assumed that these events are "endtimes", and because Israel is a nation today, it is taken that Daniels 70th Seven has not been fulfilled. However, it has been , in perfect accordance with Daniel 9. It bears careful reading, especially when the Angel tells Daniel that these 70 weeks are given to accomplish several objectives. I can restate them, but suffice as to say that they were satisfied by Christs' coming, death, and ressurection. The final note, the Jewish War of 67-73 AD, was the last of the 70 weeks, and even those believers at the time knew as much. Thus Daniel 9:26 cannot be taken as an "endtimes" verse, which removes the first of several proofs used to support the very idea of an "antichrist". Ultimately neither the antichrist, the abomination of desolation, or the actual 70th Seven are even mentioned in the book of Revelation--Left Behinders beware!

As to "tribulation", I believe it is fair to say that the tribulatrion and the Wrath are not one and the same, and also are frequently taken to be so. The tribulation is the trial of the Church in the world, and it has been occuring since the day Christ was annointed by God. The Wrath is Gods specific judgement of the world. So, when John echoes Daniel 7 by saying the beast will make war on the saints and conquer them, he is speaking of tribulation. But when Revelation describes the Seals, the Censurs, and the Bowls of wrath, this is God's wrath.

The two should not be confused.

Therefore, since the time of tribulation will not end until Christ returns, clearly a post tribulation perspective seems to be the most accurate--given the above clarifications.

In Christ.

[Guest]

That there will be a great tribulation is not at issue. At issue is the "imaginery" 7 years tribulation

etc., etc., etc.

You know, I have beat this topic to death already, so I am not going to spend much time repeating myself.

The topic WAS at issue, because the poster I was responding to had an issue with it.

I am not sure why I said about the Day of the Lord was just brushed aside as thought there were no scriptures supporting it.

Search sun moon stars in the bible and see how many times the phrase Day of the Lord is connected to it. Look also at the descriptions of it, and then tell me those events have occured in the past. No, on second thought, don't bother. I am too tired of 'fighting" people who want to force these events into the past.