Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

51 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Nah, I don't go for the pyramid scheme. (eye of providence) The 70 mile high 13th "foundation" (only at its farthest reaches you now added still merely makes it only touch the ground in the very middle, continuing to obliterate Israel and other countries by keeping them in total darkness. And the "lines" are wrong anyway. Last year when you posted this stuff it should have been clear.

A foundation is all on the ground.  The four corners all touch the surface of the ground, all the walls touch the surface of the ground.  I have to agree with Roy here, the New Jerusalem fits a pyramid better than a cube.  The wall of the city had 12 foundations, all must touch the ground.  Chp 22 says the river of water of life flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city.  For this river to flow, it must have a grade (slope).  The floor of a cube has no slope.  The floor of a pyramid can have a slope.  Then there are the 12 gates which will access this street which the river flows through.

This structure does not obliterate Israel, it overlays Israel (Jersalem) at its center.  Read Scripture; There will be no more night.  They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, For the Lord God will give them light. So what total darkness are you referring to?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Uriah]

7 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

A foundation is all on the ground.  The four corners all touch the surface of the ground, all the walls touch the surface of the ground.  I have to agree with Roy here, the New Jerusalem fits a pyramid better than a cube.  The wall of the city had 12 foundations, all must touch the ground.  Chp 22 says the river of water of life flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city.  For this river to flow, it must have a grade (slope).  The floor of a cube has no slope.  The floor of a pyramid can have a slope.  Then there are the 12 gates which will access this street which the river flows through.

This structure does not obliterate Israel, it overlays Israel (Jersalem) at its center.  Read Scripture; There will be no more night.  They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, For the Lord God will give them light. So what total darkness are you referring to?

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv,

The darkness would be in the land of Israel and other countries, unless...there is a hole in the bottom of the lowest level. In fact ALL the other countries would need the light too. Egypt, for example looks to be  completely swallowed up into the new city. Yet the scripture has warning for them having rain withheld and Israel,s border extending to the wadi of Egypt. Cube or not the landing scenario is quite difficult. Roy adds a 13th foundation too. In the "landing" scenario that would put the gates in other countries too, just beyond the obliterated countries. Not sure what you mean about a sloped floor in the pyramid. Where does the water flow to? The lowest point of the slope?

[Montana Marv]

24 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Not sure what you mean about a sloped floor in the pyramid. Where does the water flow to? The lowest point of the slope?

The earth still has curvature, so water will flow out from the New Jerusalem.  There is now no longer any sea (Rev 21:1). Rev 22:3 says there will no longer be any curse.  Go back to Gen 3:17 - Cursed is the ground because of you, it will produce thorns and thistles for you.  So there will need to be water for the plants.  The Curse affected mans work in the field.  The Curse is now removed.  Now, what does splendor mean? Rev 24:21 says, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor to it (New Jerusalem).  What does this encompass?  What splendor are they bringing?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Uriah]

Hi Marv,

Just off the top of my head, do you think the "Ezekiel Temple" will be contained in NJ when it has landed? Also, yes I am quite aware of the future conditions. I have included that in detail at my website. And yes, there is info on NJ there too.        http://  thereturnofthechrist.com

[Montana Marv]

2 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marv,

Just off the top of my head, do you think the "Ezekiel Temple" will be contained in NJ when it has landed? Also, yes I am quite aware of the future conditions. I have included that in detail at my website. And yes, there is info on NJ there too.        http://  thereturnofthechrist.com

No, the Ezekiel Temple is the Millennial Temple where Jesus Christ will rule from during the 1000 years.  He rules with a rod of iron over all nations.  After the 1000 years and after Death and Hades have been cast into the Lake of Fire is when the New Heaven and a New Earth are formed according to Rev 21:1. The New Jerusalem is the dwelling place of God which comes down after the New Heavens and the New Earth are formed.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Uriah]

Hi Marv

The new heaven and Earth are here right after Jesus defeats the a/c. You can see this in Rev 6. The sky is departing at to be replaced by the new heaven and there is a change in  global geography.

NJ appears right after that. Otherwise we have to wait 1,000 yrs to"enter" the place prepared for us. Rev.20 was meant to say parentheses around the passage on the 1k yrs. It is merely a digression.

 

[Montana Marv]

38 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marv

The new heaven and Earth are here right after Jesus defeats the a/c. You can see this in Rev 6. The sky is departing at to be replaced by the new heaven and there is a change in  global geography.

NJ appears right after that. Otherwise we have to wait 1,000 yrs to"enter" the place prepared for us. Rev.20 was meant to say parentheses around the passage on the 1k yrs. It is merely a digression.

 

So when is the GWTJ and when is Death and Hades cast into the Lake of Fire.  Sin and Death still exists until this time.  The New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem cannot occur until then.  At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released to deceive the nations... Rev 20:7.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

So when is the GWTJ and when is Death and Hades cast into the Lake of Fire.  Sin and Death still exists until this time.  The New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem cannot occur until then.  At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released to deceive the nations... Rev 20:7.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv,

First, I am going from Rev. 20:7 all the way to v. 10 to be surrounded with parentheses. That portion is AFTER the 1,000 yrs. Then, the narrative picks back up with what happens right after Jesus returns. The Great White Throne! The sea goes away at that time. All the dead are judged. (Matt 25:31) (Dan. 12:2)

The next judgment is after the 1K yrs. It will be for those who died in the millennium, including those who shortly after it came against Jerusalem being deceived by Satan when he is released.   

Matt 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

This is Rev. 20:11! On a throne of His glory. Want to guess the color choice?  This is when we, "enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Not a thousand yrs later...Is. 40:10- Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Rev. 11:18- the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marv,

First, I am going from Rev. 20:7 all the way to v. 10 to be surrounded with parentheses. That portion is AFTER the 1,000 yrs. Then, the narrative picks back up with what happens right after Jesus returns. The Great White Throne! The sea goes away at that time. All the dead are judged. (Matt 25:31) (Dan. 12:2)

The next judgment is after the 1K yrs. It will be for those who died in the millennium, including those who shortly after it came against Jerusalem being deceived by Satan when he is released.   

Matt 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

This is Rev. 20:11! On a throne of His glory. Want to guess the color choice?  This is when we, "enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Not a thousand yrs later...Is. 40:10- Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Rev. 11:18- the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,

Shalom, Uriah.

Wrong set of parentheses. The only parts of Revelation 20:1-9 that is "out of place," so to speak, are the last couple of phrases in verse 3 and the comparison that is made in verse 5 because it IS a comparison:

Revelation 20:1-9 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, (till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Yochanan's ("John's") focus here for his timeline was the imprisonment of haSatan.

There's still a THOUSAND YEARS to come before the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. Look carefully at the above verses:

First, haSatan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit.
Second, Yeshua` (having returned) resurrects His own in the First (General) Resurrection.
Third, He who has a part in the First Resurrection, reigns with God and His Messiah (His "Christ," the GREEK word meaning "Messiah") for a thousand years WHILE haSatan is locked away.
Fourth, THEN when the thousand years OF HIS INCARCERATION are expired, haSatan shall be freed from his prison.
Fifth, haSatan goes out to decive the nations one last time.
Sixth, those deceived (Gog and Magog) are gathered for the final battle and defeated by God in the Global Fire.

Just a comment here: The second step may actually have come before the first step. That is, those who are His may have already been resurrected in the First (General) Resurrection with Yeshua` having already returned. It's just that it is AFTER the incarceration of haSatan that we begin to reign with the Messiah.

Continuing on....

Revelation 20:10-15 (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, seventh, haSatan is thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur or the Lake of Burning Sulfur to join the Beast and the False Prophet already there.
Eighth, the earth (the ground) and the heaven (the sky) were blown back until there was nowhere left for them to go as they "fled" from our God who is a CONSUMING FIRE!
Ninth, the Dead, insignificant and important, are resurrected in the Second (General) Resurrection. This part is implied because we next see,...
Tenth, the Dead, insignificant and important, are standing before the Great White Throne for judgment, which will be GOD'S throne, not that of His Messiah.
Eleventh, the Dead are judged from the records that God keeps in books (scrolls), including the Book of Life.

Parenthetical in the sense that it is a subset and the details of the Second Resurrection is the fact that the sea gives up its dead, as do the dying and those in the earthly graves.

Twelfth, all these having been condemned are then sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

All of this, from the seventh point to the twelfth point, are the Second Death.

Finally, also a subset, are the details of the sentencing: Whoever was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the Lake of Fire, as well as haSatan, the Beast, and the False Prophet.

ALL of this occurs BEFORE Revelation 21:1-8:

Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Thirteenth, God creates all thing new! Yochanan sees a new sky and a new ground, since the first sky and the first ground had passed away, and in the process, God doesn't re-create the Mediterranean Sea that helped to imprison Yochanan on the Isle of Patmos.
Fourteenth, it is THEN that Yochanan sees the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah, descend to the New Earth "coming down from God out of the sky, all decked out like a bride for her husband!
Fifteenth, Yochanan hears the voice out of the sky say, "LOOK! The Tent of God is with men! He will dwell with them! They shall be HIS people; God Himself shall be with them, and He shall be their God! God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor mourning, neither shall there be any more pain! ALL the former things are passed away!
Sixteenth, the One on the Throne said, "LOOK! I'm making all things new!"
Seventeenth, in his vision, Yochanan said that God said to him, "Write it down, for these words are true and reliable.
Eighteenth, God continued to say to Yochanan, "It's complete. I am the A and the Z, the beginning and the end. I will give freely to him who is thirsty [water] from the fountain of the water of life. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Nineteenth, God continued, "However, the fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the pimps, the drug-pushers, the idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the Lake which burns with fire and sulfur, which is the Second Death."

That He says this at this time indicates that it will be still going on after God has reformed the New Earth and the New Sky and while God has delivered His New Jerusalem.

One more thing: We should pay attention to the difference between "shall" and "will." "To will" something is an act of volition; that is, it is the "willer's" CHOICE. "Shall" just means that is SHALL happen in the future, and nothing will change that fact. So, when God says, "I will" do something, that means He CHOOSES to do something. When God says, "I shall" do something, that means that the something SHALL happen in the future, whether it was God's preference or not.

He WILL give us the Water of Life, but the evil-doers SHALL have their part in the Lake of Fire.

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Wrong set of parentheses. The only parts of Revelation 20:1-9 that is "out of place," so to speak, are the last couple of phrases in verse 3 and the comparison that is made in verse 5 because it IS a comparison:

Revelation 20:1-9 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, (till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Yochanan's ("John's") focus here for his timeline was the imprisonment of haSatan.

There's still a THOUSAND YEARS to come before the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. Look carefully at the above verses:

First, haSatan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit.
Second, Yeshua` (having returned) resurrects His own in the First (General) Resurrection.
Third, He who has a part in the First Resurrection, reigns with God and His Messiah (His "Christ," the GREEK word meaning "Messiah") for a thousand years WHILE haSatan is locked away.
Fourth, THEN when the thousand years OF HIS INCARCERATION are expired, haSatan shall be freed from his prison.
Fifth, haSatan goes out to decive the nations one last time.
Sixth, those deceived (Gog and Magog) are gathered for the final battle and defeated by God in the Global Fire.

Just a comment here: The second step may actually have come before the first step. That is, those who are His may have already been resurrected in the First (General) Resurrection with Yeshua` having already returned. It's just that it is AFTER the incarceration of haSatan that we begin to reign with the Messiah.

Continuing on....

Revelation 20:10-15 (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, seventh, haSatan is thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur or the Lake of Burning Sulfur to join the Beast and the False Prophet already there.
Eighth, the earth (the ground) and the heaven (the sky) were blown back until there was nowhere left for them to go as they "fled" from our God who is a CONSUMING FIRE!
Ninth, the Dead, insignificant and important, are resurrected in the Second (General) Resurrection. This part is implied because we next see,...
Tenth, the Dead, insignificant and important, are standing before the Great White Throne for judgment, which will be GOD'S throne, not that of His Messiah.
Eleventh, the Dead are judged from the records that God keeps in books (scrolls), including the Book of Life.

Parenthetical in the sense that it is a subset and the details of the Second Resurrection is the fact that the sea gives up its dead, as do the dying and those in the earthly graves.

Twelfth, all these having been condemned are then sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

All of this, from the seventh point to the twelfth point, are the Second Death.

Finally, also a subset, are the details of the sentencing: Whoever was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the Lake of Fire, as well as haSatan, the Beast, and the False Prophet.

ALL of this occurs BEFORE Revelation 21:1-8:

Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Thirteenth, God creates all thing new! Yochanan sees a new sky and a new ground, since the first sky and the first ground had passed away, and in the process, God doesn't re-create the Mediterranean Sea that helped to imprison Yochanan on the Isle of Patmos.
Fourteenth, it is THEN that Yochanan sees the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah, descend to the New Earth "coming down from God out of the sky, all decked out like a bride for her husband!
Fifteenth, Yochanan hears the voice out of the sky say, "LOOK! The Tent of God is with men! He will dwell with them! They shall be HIS people; God Himself shall be with them, and He shall be their God! God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor mourning, neither shall there be any more pain! ALL the former things are passed away!
Sixteenth, the One on the Throne said, "LOOK! I'm making all things new!"
Seventeenth, in his vision, Yochanan said that God said to him, "Write it down, for these words are true and reliable.
Eighteenth, God continued to say to Yochanan, "It's complete. I am the A and the Z, the beginning and the end. I will give freely to him who is thirsty [water] from the fountain of the water of life. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Nineteenth, God continued, "However, the fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the pimps, the drug-pushers, the idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the Lake which burns with fire and sulfur, which is the Second Death."

That He says this at this time indicates that it will be still going on after God has reformed the New Earth and the New Sky and while God has delivered His New Jerusalem.

One more thing: We should pay attention to the difference between "shall" and "will." "To will" something is an act of volition; that is, it is the "willer's" CHOICE. "Shall" just means that is SHALL happen in the future, and nothing will change that fact. So, when God says, "I will" do something, that means He CHOOSES to do something. When God says, "I shall" do something, that means that the something SHALL happen in the future, whether it was God's preference or not.

He WILL give us the Water of Life, but the evil-doers SHALL have their part in the Lake of Fire.

Hi Retro,

It is apparent that you are still reading things in Rev. and relying strictly on a linear comprehension. Not all of it actually is, though. It is a series of visions and the are actually digressions. This is not the only place in scripture to see this either. For example, in the situation we are discussing, I mentioned previously how the heaven (sky) departs at Jesus coming in Rev. 6. And at that the Earth is undergoing geologic transformation. yet people still read later in Rev. as if the new heaven and Earth is a thousand years away. So it isn't strictly the order of the words on the page, but the order of events that help us get the whole picture.