Omniscience v Determinism

[Diaste]

On 7/21/2021 at 2:03 PM, Josheb said:

I have to ask who is the "us" to whom you're referring? 

The one's who are asked. Who else?

On 7/21/2021 at 2:03 PM, Josheb said:

God does not ask everyone whether they believe Him. He asks only those with whom He has initiated a covenant, or on rare occasion those in whose life He has sovereignly intervened for His purposes, not theirs. I know you may not need this reminder but I remind everyone the uniform Christian view has been this: sin's effect is TOTAL and it makes humanity individually and collectively UNABLE to come to God unaided. 

All people stand already-condemned simply because they have not believed in God's one and only Son and all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and the wages of sin is death and the ONLY means of changing any of that is Jesus who is the foreknown resurrection, the foreknown only way to God......

And there it is. To believe or not believe, that is the question. Will you, or won't you? We can't be forced in this one choice. And I'm not referring to salvation, even as it is a gift that can be accepted or rejected by anyone. But it's a good point, as the unrepentant we have the moment of choice before repentance, could go either way. 

On 7/21/2021 at 2:03 PM, Josheb said:

,,,,, and ALL of that is solely a function of God's design designing creation. 

So if the "us" is Christians then there isn't a single Christian who is ever asked to believe God before God has called, chosen, redeemed, justified them. There is a debate over at which point regeneration occurs -  before or after salvation but the synergistic position has way to many problems scriptural and logically to prove tenable and I will gladly survey them with you if you'd like to do so in this op but it begins with the undeniable reality "prevenient grace" is a hypothesis postulated by Arminius because he could not tolerate what he perceived to be tyrannical determinism. I can find a plethora of places where scripture plainly asserts God as causal insalvation but there isn't a single verse in the entire Bible asserting the unregenerate sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's will as causal. 

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness.

Abraham was called and  put to the question. 

So the argument doesn't work here. Yes indeed one is asked to believe God as before the acceptance of Christ as Lord one cannot be redeemed. I can't abide strict determinism either to the level of all personal choices, nor can I abide solely randomness of choices conspiring of themselves, nor full autonomy. There's a balance that intrigues me and I'm hoping to find it.

 

 

[Riverwalker]

I have been reading much of this and it is twisting me sideways,

I would only comment that this whole discussion must be taking out of the context of man's understanding and perception and placed into God's

God is eternal...everywhen.  He is omniscient because He is there 30 years ago, thirty years from now or 3000 years fore and aft. 

God knows every choice we will make, and this "foreknowledge" allows him to "predestine" our path to bring us to the point of that choice. 

But everything....falls on that choice

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, (Insert Choice to Answer the Call Here) these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Diaste]

On 7/22/2021 at 6:14 AM, Josheb said:

Okay. Great. 

 

The timeline matter should be hard to grasp and accept. The Bible opens with the statement "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," and that statement alone necessitates certain conditions, such as the oft-mentioned necessity God exists prior to and external to that which He created. A number of other conditions also necessarily result from that one statement, such as.....

• God is the First Cause from which any and all other possible causes occur.
• God is not limited by any limitations existent in that which He created. 
• The heavens are somehow separate from the earth.
• An end is implied (later stated elsewhere in scripture). 
• God knows everything necessary about how to create heavens and earths (even though He created only one of the latter). 
   

If omniscience and sovereignty are assumed prior to reading Genesis 1:1 then function and purpose are implied, not just design. Since (or "if" if you prefer) time and space are conditions of creation God is not limited by time or space and exists prior to and external to time and space.  The above means human-centric views of time and space from within time and space are insufficient and some may not even apply. 

So if there is any doubt then do please verify Holmesian style and let me know what it decided. 

Otherwise we should have complete agreement AND therefore be able to use these conditions to understand any overlap between God's omniscience and whatever determinism might exist in creation (whether caused by God's express will, caused by God's express will for the express purpose of accomplishing His plan (whatever that may be), caused by sin, or caused by human choices and there consequent actions.

 

Yes?

Agreed. Reasonable application toward fitting conclusions may differ.

[Diaste]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:23 AM, Josheb said:

@Diaste, 

Let me summarize a few of things I've said so far on the matter of omniscience and determinism. 

God knows everything. That does not inherently mean God's knowledge is causal but it does mean once God knows something it cannot not happen (otherwise He didn't actually know it). This means there are at least two types of determinism; that which God actively, intentionally, and/or proactively causes and that which simply correlates or corresponds to knowledge of something in the future happening. In addition, there are limits or limitations designed into creation that themselves cause or determine certain outcomes (such as sin resulting in death). This is a forth kind of determinism and a determinism about which God knows beforehand, at least categorically (God Himself does not cause every individual to sin). Then there are the effects of prior choices, the proverbial butterfly effect, whereby an entire history of many people's choices can come to bear on an individual's choice and his/her choice also foster influence and control on other future people's future choice. 

Very brief so I can't really offer any intelligent commentary. I can understand it and even agree in principle. It sounds reasonable except for the unequivocation about what God 'knows beforehand'. There is a depth and scope there which I'm sure none can plumb or traverse; and the 'choices conspiring' which would speak to intent and purpose beyond the ken of the Creator.

On 7/22/2021 at 7:23 AM, Josheb said:

The reason God knows all these determinism and their constituent elements is because His is not sitting within the linear timeline of historical cause and effect (as we blindly sit) but instead sits outside of all that He has created knowing the beginning from the end. In no way does His working out His already existing will, plan, and/or purpose in creation mean He does not already know what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen because during the exact same time He is interacting with or intervening in creation He is also sitting outside of that which He created seeing all of it at once. 

That's not a reason, it's an assumption. The fact God is outside of time space and matter does not in itself imbue any particular characteristic. That He is God and has those characteristics as His nature and personality is the cause. That He is outside time space and matter is the nature of His eternity past and future existence. So His omniscience is who He is and His knowledge is in Him not in the dimension where He resides.

But I agree, God is existent apart from time, space and matter. That doesn't necessarily dictate any action however.

On 7/22/2021 at 7:23 AM, Josheb said:

And while synergists have had difficulty with this monergists have not. We have long understood (although not always fully informed) and reconciled the seeming dilemma within the statement whereby God ordained all things from eternity without authoring sin or causing violence to human will or preventing secondary causes and their resulting contingencies. 

I don't even know those people. Are they from the Near East?

 

[Diaste]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:22 AM, Alive said:

Its difficult to fully apprehend, but what this OP is attempting to do is find that nexus where choices and determinism meet...or not.

Yes. To what depth and what may be the scope. Are we severely limited or fully autonomous, something in between? 

And does omniscience beget necessarily determined choices by the creature in whole or part?

I believe we are free to choose salvation or not. Lots of evidence that choice is being made everyday. Very few have not heard the name of Jesus and the accompanying offer of life eternal. For those so cleansed by the blood of the Lamb we all have the choice to listen or not to what God is asking us to do or not do. 

Beyond that? Do we really choose our job, home, location, mate? I think probably unless it conflicts with the purpose of God for the individual at either that time or some future date. 

I can attest He was close to me and watching out for me from before I made my confession of belief to Him or I'm dead several times. Not hyperbole. 

That which is determined by God can barely be stopped. Though I wonder about the flood and God's mind and emotions when that decision was made. 

Genuine or already known?

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The exact opposite of that bold-faced portion is true. 

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have  everlasting life.

Aren't we forced to conclude we must be saved before we believe? How can salvation be affected before belief? 

If you're making the distinction between Christ and our Father and coming to believe in God only after accepting the salvation of Christ I don't see it. They are One. Seen one, seen them both; or you see neither. 

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Our choices are always limited in some way or another to some degree or another. The choice to choose God is prevented prior to coming to Christ and it is prevented by the effects of sin and the effects of sin are a result of, consequence or, or function of God's pre-existing design (pre-existent before sin's occurrence = if we sin then we die). It is only after being saved that anyone chooses God. One of the ways this can be observed in scriptures is the fact it is ALWAYS God who initiates covenants; sinfully dead and enslaved humans have never initiated a covenant with God and this is all the more so with God-denying atheists. Scripture tells us God chooses us, God calls us, God redeemed us and God did a bunch more stuff for humanity as a whole and every individual regenerate believer without ever asking a single one of us if we wanted Him to do so! 

Yes. But the acceptance of is unforced and free. Yes it was all accomplished and ready beforehand, still have to make the choice to RSVP.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Many of us, including myself, would anecdotally report our personal experience of conversion entailed a choice to choose God before He'd already saved us but that is not how whole scripture describes the event. We must submit our experience to scripture, not the other way around. 

I have already quoted Arminius (see section VII) plainly stating the human will is incpable of doing good or choosing God in its sinful pre-converted-to-Christ state. Arminius quoted Augustine in the quote I provided. Christianity has ALWAYS held humanity incapable of choosing God in the sinful state. It is the single exception or a total inability to make a choice. You can choose you favorite flavor of ice cream and which route to drive hum but no one can or ever has chosen God on his/her own while in the dead sinless choice-removing state of sin. You may already know this but historically the belief something remained of the human will sufficient to still choose God specifically for salvation is called Pelagianism. That's because Pelagius is reported to have held that belief and debated the matter with Augustine. We don't have any of Pelagius;' original views, only that which is described second-hand by his opponent Augustine but whether Augustine accurately portrayed Pelagius' views is now immaterial because doctrinally speaking the Church has since held to what we now call the doctrine of "total depravity" (TD). Lot's of people teach TD wrong and as a consequence lots of people learn TD wrong.TD simply states the effects of sin are total, not that humans are totally depraved.TD teaches the effects of sin are so totall that the effect keeps the human will from choosing God SALVIFICALLY! It is the one area of volitional agency that is extinguished, not the one area that remains or is empowered. 

Fine, not that I agree, but I get it. I think the above must presume sin is gone at the moment of salvation.

"If we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we should say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
"

The only thing that is changed is our sin covered by the blood of the Lamb. It is not gone but obscured that we are accepted and may enter in. 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, and Wesley ALL agreed. No Arminian or Wesleyan is truly Arminian or Wesley if s/he denies total depravity. S/he is Pelagian. 

Pelagius was deemed a heretic and Pelagianism was deemed heresy and the Church has not wavered from that position for the last 1600 years. 

You keep doing this. I don't give them any credence no matter what they call themselves. 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Now I know you're not beholding to "doctrine" if it can't be found in scripture. Good. Me neither. That's why I made mention of the covenants. It is ONLY after God has established a covenant with a person that He asks them anything. It is ALWAYS only after God has established His covenant that He ever ask them anything. There are absolutely no exceptions in the Bible. Regardless of what Aug, Luther, Cal, Arm, And Wes believed and taught the plain fact of sculpture is this: God is always, only, and everywhere the one who initiates any covenant. He always, only, and everywhere initiates the covenant without asking if the person is interested, and it is always only, and everywhere only after He has done so that any human is ever given a choice. 

I may be misunderstood here. I'm only positing that in the event of the individual being faced with the choice, status being irrelevant, of believing God or not, in anything where God is presenting choices, that the freedom to choose is solely in the power of the individual and inviolate.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The covenant we have with Christ by which we are redeemed and regenerate is no different. There isn't a single example in the entirety of the whole Bible in which a non-believing unrgenerate ever initiates his own salvation with God unaided by God. Neither is there a single verse in the entirety of the Bible ever assigning causality to the dead-in-sin sinner's volition. None. Plenty of places where scripture says, "God did it," but not a single example of scripture ever saying "The sinner's will did it."

I don't know how we got here and while it's certainly an interesting subject it wasn't intended.

What is the depth and scope of determined choices. if any. and does God's omniscience necessarily beget any, all, or limited determinism in the choice of the individual? For anything and anyone of any status; saved or not, rich, poor, young old, whatever, whenever and however.

 

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

No other option in scripture. 

These are just a few of the many examples in which God's omniscience and determinism intersect; some of them causal, some of them mere correlation. 

Causal or autonomous. What is the depth, scope or limit of the guidance, interference or abolition at whatever moment to further along the path to the end?

No esoteric, third party, evolution type randomness organizing 'choices which conspire and then align' with some Hollywood vision of future events as perpetually existent. No, no, no.

 

[Alive]

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes. To what depth and what may be the scope. Are we severely limited or fully autonomous, something in between? 

I would say that we can't be fully autonomous. RC Sproule makes that argument this way--if memory serves.

Autonomous = Self-willed

IF We believe that God is fully autonomous, which I suspect we all agree on and his creatures are fully autonomous, that represents two irresistable forces that are also immovable forces. This cannot be in this universe.

So God is fully autonomous. That leaves us in the position of being (we presume) partially autonomous.

[Alive]

I have always visualized a vast timeline representing linear time and God above looking down and fully cognizant of every point simultaneously.

A bunch of years ago, I studied up some on what they call quantum physics and I read about 'particle spin'. Apparently, there is a particle that spins once, blinks out of exisitence (sic) and then when it spins again, blinks back into existence. When I read that, what occurred to me was a physical mechanism that indicated Christ holding all things together. I pictured in my minds eye this universe being connected to the realm of the eternal.

Ya--I have an imagination.

LOL

 

[Riverwalker]

55 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Everything just posted has ALL already been posted. Not a single thing was added to the discussion with this post - other than the fact your reading has you twisted sideways even though your own view(s) is not new to the conversation. I know the thread is lengthy (12 pages) but read it all if that hasn't already been done. 

 

And let me invite you to start over. 

And yet surprisingly enough I need neither your permission nor approval to state my opinion

It was said again because 13 pages later the same heads are bashing into the same bricks walls with nothing accomplished...the definition of insanity

[Alive]

OK fellas---let;s not make it personal.

I thought we had moved beyond total depravity and the need for God to intervene?

Haven't we agreed that saving faith isn't possible without regeneration? ANd that even the saving faith is a gift?