Why Resurrection?

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Why? 

Because I believe if the Word of God conflicts in some way that I HAVE GOTTEN SOMETHING WRONG as I believe the words of God are pure.  

 

 

29 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Not sure what that means or why that's relevant. The point I am trying to make is 1) God's own word repeatedly shows it is God's Spirit that comes down and returns, and not the human spirit, 2) there are several verses that show the human goes to the grave, 3) there is no scripture that says a human spirit goes back to God, and 4) while it is indeed very, very common for people to use Ecclesiastes 12:7 to justify a belief in a spirit going back to God that's not actually what the verse says and given all else that the Bible as a whole says the intepretation of Ecc. 12:7 as a human spirit is dubious at best, completely unfounded at worst. 

"Snooth waters" is irrelevant. 

I sure hope that someday soon you will be able to let go of the fact that I am different than you and there is no need for you to point out the things you find to be relevant or not.  If it's not relevant to you PLEASE just skip over it as there is a possibility it is relevant to someone else.  If these were personal letters between just you and I could see the reason for directing the conversation in a direction more suited to your personal preferences but since it is not, again please just skip over it.  No need to keep taking up precious time telling me what you don't like about what I choose to include and what I don't.  I know I would really appreciate it.  Much knowledge is missed because I am sure others are like me that as soon as they see these kinds of words,  they just stop reading.  


1)  OF course it is not a HUMAN spirit that comes down.  Not made human until put into a flesh body.  BUT it certainly is spiritual coming down and going back up and human in between.  True, you may not agree.  

2)  The CARCUSS, the part we have no more use for, that decays, that rots, that the worms crawl in and out of, THAT goes into the grave.  THE 'US' goes back to GOD.  ALL souls belong to Him.  So yes, I do agree, we see it time and again going into the grave.

3)  There are bodies Terrestrial and bodies Celestial.  You keep trying to put what is earthy into what is spiritual.  
 

 

47 minutes ago, Josheb said:

In fact, I will add that the Bible is constantly making assertions that are extraordinary and if we are not constantly asking ourselves, "Do I believe what I am reading?" because if we are in fact believing God's word as written then we must change. One of the most obvious examples of this is 2 Peter 1:3-9. In that passage Peter opens with two amazing extraordinary claims: we have everything we need for a godly life and we can participate in the divine nature. Do you believe you have EVERYTHING you need? Do you believe you can participate in the divine nature?

 

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Yes, I believe this to be truth

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yes, I believe this to be truth
 

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

This too

2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Again, yes

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Don't you wish everyone would!!!

2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I especially believe this to be truth
 

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

I see examples of this so much more than I should but it would seem they are and they can't and they have.  


Thank you for the reply   D

[DeighAnn]

55 minutes ago, Josheb said:

So again I ask you: are there verses that justify interpreting Ecc. 12:7 as a reference to the human spirit and not God's own Spirit returning to Himself?

OH, I missed some, sorry.  YES, as I have showed before but you don't see them the same as I do.  

 

 

57 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Got scripture for that? 

Yes, 
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

And

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


BUT WAIT THERES MORE

Joel 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

Joel 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Joel 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.


 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The word grows within us but that does not mean the word takes on new meaning, especially not new meaning only you are told

Agreed

 

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I'm trying to understand one thing and one thing only: how is it you read Ecc. 12:7 to be about a human spirit and not God's own Spirit returning to Himself given all the many scriptures teaching that view (a sampling of which I posted)?  Nothing more is being asked of you at this time.

WISH I WOULD HAVE READ THIS FIRST!!!

 

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Where does the Bible tell us Christ is?  


 

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Not come back for us but US TO GOD. 


So that we might be where? 

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 
 

1  Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 DOES THIS MEAN TO YOU that Gods spirit is in prison?  Or how does this work?  
 

1Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The Greek is most often the same word so it is the context that informs. Lazarus was raised from the dead but he was not raised incorruptible and immortal. If he was then he'd still be walking around and everyone could see for themselves here in the 21st century. The Greek in John 12:1 is "ēgeiren," which transliterally means awake, arouse, or raise. Lazarus was raised from the dead, but he wasn't resurrected from the dead. He still had to die again and if he did so believing in Jesus then he later got resurrected. Lazarus was not sleeping; he was dead (Gk.: "nekrōn").

When you say you don't see the dead in Rev. 20 as raised, but instead standing that doesn't change anything. Dead folks can't stand up. If those dead folk are standing up then they are no longer dead. The Greek term is "anastasis" which could mean "stand" (G386) but that would be uncharacteristic of its scriptural usage, which in this conjugation is always about resurrection. You'll have to justify your interpretation as a valid exception to the rule for it to have veracity. This is especially so if you're going to ad embellished interpretations about minds being destroyed in special fires. Remember: that particular book of the Bible tells us not to add to or subtract from it lest we bring curse upon ourselves. 

 

 

I also think we're getting further afield of the op. The asks a single simple question: Why resurrection? and I recall reading some affirmation from you of my answer: 

"Now the answer to your question is this: there is no eternal life without first being resurrected (not resuscitated) and there is no resurrection without having first died, and there is no death without having first lived and the entire process is necessary because..... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50)."

Or at least I read you quote that and respond with "Amen." So if we agree as to the why of resurrection then everything else about the resurrection should be understood accordingly. 

 

A frequently occurring mistake among many is the conflation or confusing of soteriology and eschatology (salvation and end times). Sometimes a given verse may pertain to both but the two are not the same. When the Bible speaks of God saving His people from a pending earthly war or some other trial, tribulation, or other onerous event it may be symbolic of God saving us from sin but that does not make the text soteriological beyond the symbolic implications. So, for example, when Jesus speaks of the pending destruction of Jerusalem (the one that occurred in 70 AD) he is not speaking about the end of the world. He may be speaking about the last days (plural) but he is not speaking about the last day (singular). 

Dead people in Jerusalem in 70 AD are GREATLY different than dead people in the city of peace (jeru=city; salem = peace) the comes down from heaven in Rev. 22. The two should not be equated. 

So.... 

It has already been established the scriptures use the English words like "dead," "alive," and "raised" in very diverse ways, and we have agreement as to the why of resurrection. I therefore encourage you to be consistent and render soteriology consistently with the why of soteriological resurrection and not confuse or conflate it with eschatological living, dying, raising, etc., especially since 1) scripture never contradicts itself and 2) the apocalyptic language is very figurative and best rendered by other scriptures, not 21th century imaginations. 

 

 

 

.

 I ask you again to find a new approach in which to communicate with me.    

Please,  don't use the words those 'schooled' in the Bible use, just those words by God.   

As I have told you previously, I don't read these posts in which any attempt to teach me HOW the bible is to be read is made.  I didn't go to school for a reason.  I am not going to school for a reason right now.  I will not be going to school in the future for the same reason.  I respect your going/calling though.   

If 'schooled' is how you wish to communicate, then please don't include me.  No hard feelings.  Many membered body.  Lots of people to communicate with....Thank you D

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thank you for your time. I sure hope you can someday learn to keep personal content out of the forum. 

Scripture, not more personal beliefs were requested. I have asked politely and respectfully for an explanation for how and why Eccl. 12:7 should be read to say it is a human spirit that returns to God when scripture elsewhere often and clearly states His own Spirit returns to Him. I asked because I wanted to make sure I was not missing something and now, after several exchanges, I still read absolutely no scriptural evidence whatsoever that the spirit of Ecc. 12:7 is a human spirit and not God's own Spirit returning to Himself. 

 

And I hope everyone was paying attention to the exchange so the lack of exegetical veracity of the original statement can be seen. To remind everyone, this is what was originally stated; this is what prompted my original inquiry (page 5 of this op), 

 

"Hi Dennis,  

 

 

 

 

Did you, in your studies, ever look at it from the point of view that

 

 

the sons of God were rejoicing when God was creating the earth along with  

 

 

 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

 

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (the 'image'/spirit body)

 

 

 

Genesis 1:26 And God said,

 

Let us

 

make man in our image,

 

after our likeness:

 

and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

 

 

 

Let us, as in God and the Word, ONE.  So

 

 

OUR likeness would mean more than one likeness.

  Who else was there but the sons of God? 

 

 

 

 

So God made the FLESH SONS OF GOD in the very image of the SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD which would perfectly fit  

 

after OUR LIKENESS.  A likeness that was then, that is now, and that will be. 

"

 

 

DeighAnn, the "us" of Genesis 1:26 is the Trinity. Angels don't possess any ability to create, they are not made in God's image, and we are not made in theirs. And I will happily discuss this with anyone who can do so without making things personal.

They weren't doing the creating.  They were the images descending and ascending on the ladder.  Did I miss your reply to that question?  I will have to go look.  

IF you haven't replied yet, that would be the one thing I would like comment on.  I answered yours, I hope you do the same.  AGAIN THANK YOU   D

And I do agree.  We communicate in manners that don't benefit either one of us and so probably no one else and so best not to do so in the future.  AGAIN NO HARD FEELINGS MANY MEMBERED BODY.....D

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Was the thief saved?

He was promised a place in Christ's Kingdom.  So yes.

[Resurrection Priest]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus knew where he will go when he will die on the Cross. 

He knew that he will descend to the place of the dead. 

David said that after he died ha will be watching from the Bosom of Abraham for the coming of God's Holy One.

David at his death was gathered to Abraham. 

Isaac at his death was gathered to Abraham or to the Bossom of Abraham. 

Jacob at his death follow Isaac to their Inheritance after death to the Bossom of Abraham. 

Jacob's descendants follow Jacob and at death were gathered to Abraham. 

At death the Israelites were gathered to Abraham or descended to where Abraham was in his own Inheritance given to him by God separated from the rest of the world where they were waiting for the day of the Messiah the Christ of God. 

When Jesus Christ told the thief on the Cross that today you will be with me in paradise. 

Jesus Christ did not say that we will go there together, no he said that you will be with me in Paradise. 

Jesus knew that he will die first and he will descend first to Abraham and to his seed that were with him.

And he said to the thief that's where you will go to.

He did not say that to the other thief because he was cut off from God and the righteous seed of Abraham. 

For Jesus Christ to say to the thief today you will be gathered to Abraham to be together wthe righteous seed of Abraham, Jesus was telling him that when he will die today right after him he will be gather to Abraham because Jesus forgave his sins and he restored him to righteousness. 

So when the thief died and he was gathered to Abraham he saw Jesus Christ there who went there before him. 

That shows that Jesus Christ died as a righteous person and not as the sinner who was condemned to die on the Cross. 

Hope you understand that. 

I understand that Jesus was without sin.

Then the Father "made Him to be sin" - for us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Then the Father raised His Son from the dead.  

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)

QUESTION:  Do you believe "the bosom of Abraham" is a different place from Heaven, or from Christ's Kingdom?

QUESTION:  Do you believe that Jesus went somewhere - consciously - while He was "dead" and His body lay in tomb?  

[Resurrection Priest]

24 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Was he, or will he be, resurrected = raised incorruptible and immortal?

 

He will be

[Resurrection Priest]

26 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Was he regenerate?

What do you mean by "regenerate" ?

[Resurrection Priest]

32 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Was he baptized in water at the time of his conversion?

Baptism (meaning to immerse in water) is something required of believers, IF it is within their power to do so.  I personally believe that some are not able to do so, and God understands that.  The thief already nailed to a cross is a good example.  

My understanding is that baptism by sprinkling came about in the region of Antioch during a severe drought in which many died.  There were no pools, or running water to immerse in, yet believers wanted to perform a water ceremony.  

The thief was "washed" in the blood of The Lamb.    

[WilliamL]

On 7/20/2021 at 3:46 PM, Resurrection Priest said:

My question is for those who believe there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust at the Glorious Return of Christ.

Why a resurrection, IF those dead in Christ are living in the Heavenly realm (without any body or with the "spiritual body"),

and those dead NOT in Christ went to Hades/Hell?

I'm seriously asking.  What is the teaching on this?  Do the dead need to be resurrected, so they can have bodies, so they can live on this physical earth?  Is that why they need to be resurrected? 

First and primarily, because Jesus was resurrected bodily, and He is the standard for all. The following excerpt from a blog post of mine addresses some of your other issues:

Soul-Garments, Death, and Resurrection

When the physical body dies, its soul becomes separated from its dwelling. The carnal soul soon descends to its kind in Hades/Hell. The righteous soul ascends to its kind in heaven, where it is “given a white robe” (Rev. 6:11) derived from that soulʼs “righteous acts” while on earth:

Revelation 3:5 “The one overcoming shall be clothed in white garments… 18 I counsel you to buy from Me…white garments, that you may be clothed, and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed…” 19:8 …the fine linen [garment] is the righteous acts of the saints. 1 Peter 5:5 …be clothed with humility…

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [= physical body] of our tabernacle [= soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed having been clothed we shall not be found naked… 4 …but…that mortality may be swallowed up by life. * “This”/toutō is neuter, agreeing with verse 1ʼs tabernacle, not house.

Up until the End of the Age, the garments of the souls of the dead are comprised solely of either a heavenly or a hellish substance. These souls are therefore restricted to their respective heavenly and hellish realms. At the resurrection of the dead, however, the material (this earthly realmʼs) body will be raised and be restored to the souls of the dead, just as Jesusʼ body was to Him:

Luke 24:39 [After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to His disciples and said,] “Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Job 19:25 …I know that my Redeemer lives, and afterward He shall arise above the dust; 26 and after my skin they have stricken off of this body, yet from my flesh I shall behold God.

1 John 3:2 …we know that when He shines forth/is manifested, we shall be like Him…

When the great resurrection of the dead takes place, they will become physically re-embodied souls of all types of people:

Daniel 12:2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall be caused to awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.” (For the latter, see Isaiah 66:24 and Micah 7:8-10.)

John 5:28 “…an hour comes in which all the ones in the graves will hear His [the Sonʼs] voice 29 and come forth: the ones having done good things to the resurrection of life, and the ones having done evil things to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Because many different kinds of souls will be restored to their bodies, they will appear in all kinds of bodily garments, for each soulʼs bodily form will henceforward conform to its thoughts and deeds. Ones having had a sexually lustful nature will therefore appear exposed and naked, and be shamed. Similarly, others will appear bestial in various ways; and so on.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” … 38 God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

Daniel 12:3 “But the ones having been intelligent/prudent [המשכלים] shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and the ones having turned many to righteousness shall shine like the stars, forever and ever.”
 

The Tabernacles name for this seven-day feast represents the bodily garments provided to the souls at the time of the resurrection of the dead – both for the dead and for “we [of Christ] who are alive, the ones remaining to the Coming/Presence of the Lord…” 1 Thes. 4:15

1 Corinthians 15:51 …We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 …at the Last Trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we [the living] shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality.

 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1523-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/