An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church

[Kelly2363]

36 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I'm just an "...even you." 

Everything depends brother on how we are determined to look so we can see Proverbs 22:19 and take hope or we can see Luke 19:42 and despair.

So that your trust may be in the Lord, I have taught you today, even you. Proverbs 22:19

“If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. Luke 19:42

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Kelly2363
Verse reference.

[Diaste]

12 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

That you were looking for a way of escape was already visible - but you cannot feed a hungry man with a catapult. You need to stand at his table with a willing heart to serve him. And if you intend to measure him a portion of poison because you are bitter you need a prophet to remind you to cut of your right hand and the pastor to gently guide your left back to seeing with your eye - the man who is hungry and sits at the Lords' table. 

As I suspected. I thought maybe it was going to be different. But it can't be, can it? Religion has taken hold of the church and it's too late in the game. 

It's not really 'where two or three are gathered there I am also' unless it's inside brick and mortar. It's not really the message of Jesus unless a pastor or church board has applied their seal of approval. 

The above post has been said many times in many ways over the years. I would have thought love and understanding in the Spirit would result in encouragement.

Instead I'm called bitter, brutal, unwilling and it's implied that I have evil intent.

Further it's stated my only hope is in the brick and mortar and the pastor.

Not true. My hope is in the Lord and His table is in the Kingdom.

How am I to hope in the brethren when the above post is what I receive? 

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, Kelly2363 said:

Everything depends brother on how we are determined to look so we can see Proverbs 22:19 and take hope or we can see Luke 19:44 and despair.

So that your trust may be in the Lord, I have taught you today, even you. Proverbs 22:19

“If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. Luke 19:44

 

Luke 19:44

" 44They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God." 

Funny that.

Proverbs 22:19 is about trust in the Lord. Not man. Not an organization. Not doctrine. The Lord. And that same Lord is where two or three are gathered in His name. 

[Kelly2363]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

As I suspected. I thought maybe it was going to be different. But it can't be, can it? Religion has taken hold of the church and it's too late in the game. 

It's not really 'where two or three are gathered there I am also' unless it's inside brick and mortar. It's not really the message of Jesus unless a pastor or church board has applied their seal of approval. 

The above post has been said many times in many ways over the years. I would have thought love and understanding in the Spirit would result in encouragement.

Instead I'm called bitter, brutal, unwilling and it's implied that I have evil intent.

Further it's stated my only hope is in the brick and mortar and the pastor.

Not true. My hope is in the Lord and His table is in the Kingdom.

How am I to hope in the brethren when the above post is what I receive? 

 

Don't despair brother - take your eyes of your self and look to Christ - then when the prophet throws you of the cliff you will be found to be looking into Christ by faith and the pastor will gently guide you back into the fold and to the Lords' table. 

[Kelly2363]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Luke 19:44

" 44They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God." 

Funny that.

Proverbs 22:19 is about trust in the Lord. Not man. Not an organization. Not doctrine. The Lord. And that same Lord is where two or three are gathered in His name. 

 

Then follow your own reason and gather with the saints. That is all that has been said to you. But when you do then expect divisions - then you will see why you need pastors and prophets - because you will be eaten alive if there is no restraint until we all learn to be restrained by the Cross unto death daily. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Kelly2363

[Alive]

I have to admit this conversation has been both encouraging and also disheartening.

It occurs to ask a question or two regarding these verses in Eph 4.

1. are these things relevant for us today

2. if so, then how are they manifested

I would also put forth that at least in most of the world, a great deal of and possibly the majority of those who are Christ's of the Father---brethren---sons of the Living God--congregate within walls just as the early church did.

Is it a mistake to entirely disregard the walls and those within? How can this be? How does that work, in light of Paul's expression by the Holy Spirit?

This is a conundrum that needs a solution--is it not?

Eph. 4:9 (ESVS)   ( In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? ¹⁰ He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) ¹¹ And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, ¹² to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, ¹³ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, ¹⁴ so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. ¹⁵ Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, ¹⁶ from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

[Alive]

Some problems have been outlined. some agreements and some perhaps disagreements. can we work toward solutions?

[Starise]

20 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

Guess what boys and girls, there ain't no such thing as a perfect church

I hear this frequently when these things are discussed. I could reason, there have always been great white sharks that eat people. It's what sharks do. Oh well. Or I could plan for a way to protect people from the sharks if it was in my power to do so..

This is how I think so many churches can easily 'write off' people who leave. They had thin skin, they didn't share our vision, they didn't want to fit in, they had weird theology.  In reality what sometimes happens is people are rude. I know of one lady who once had a real heart for the church and was a greeter. She brought me little gifts she would find as a gesture of appreciation. I was worship leader at the time. Nothing romantic, she was just that type of person and did it for lots of other people. A few of the other women started complaining about things she did they disliked. Not behind her back but directly to her. Truth be told they didn't like her. She felt that and eventually left. She IS a believer. She did nothing that detracted from the group or the Lord's work.

One time a man showed up who had an issue with drugs. He was a very high strung but nice person and wasn't on the drugs when he came to our church so far as I know. Our congregation seemed almost afraid to express themselves in worship. This man was lifting his hands up in worship and praising the Lord. Someone behind him complained to the pastor that he was distracting them. To this day I don't understand why these people didn't just move instead of complaining. This man was taken aside by the pastor for a little 'conference'. You might guess the results. He left as well. 

Then there was my situation which still hurts to this very day. A woman had joined our WT who could not sing. I should have tested her ability more. She had a wonderful personality and a heart for worship aside from that one little issue which means a lot if you're on a WT.  I tried to make it work with no results. EVERYONE was coming to me complaining including the pastor and his wife. I knew I had to do something. I deliberated on what to do without causing her any pain. I finally decided after numerous complaints I had to let her go, so I did it in the most polite way I could think of. I brought out how many things she was truly good at but singing wasn't one of them. The results weren't good. Phone calls went all around to leadership from her about me. I received a scathing rebuke from that pastor for how I had handled it which I found interesting because no one else had the gonads to approach her but all of them had complained. Needless to say I left that church and hoped I would never enter another one anything like it. Hadn't he trusted me as leader of music to make these decisions?

Why am I bringing this all out? because to say " There are no perfect churches" skirts the issue that WE are the church and if we can't be Christians one day per week why should anyone be interested in attending our church??? We are SUPPOSED to be different.

Where do we draw the line? While I agree we should make allowances for the humanity in each of us, it's just too easy to pass it all off as something that's going to happen while never looking in a mirror to see if we can all be better believers. Look at church the way God intended it to be and act accordingly. If you don't have the Spirit then don't pretend. Stay home and watch the football game or decide to get right with God.

[Riverwalker]

See

19 minutes ago, Starise said:

I hear this frequently when these things are discussed. I could reason, there have always been great white sharks that eat people. It's what sharks do. Oh well. Or I could plan for a way to protect people from the sharks if it was in my power to do so..

This is how I think so many churches can easily 'write off' people who leave. They had thin skin, they didn't share our vision, they didn't want to fit in, they had weird theology.  In reality what sometimes happens is people are rude. I know of one lady who once had a real heart for the church and was a greeter. She brought me little gifts she would find as a gesture of appreciation. I was worship leader at the time. Nothing romantic, she was just that type of person and did it for lots of other people. A few of the other women started complaining about things she did they disliked. Not behind her back but directly to her. Truth be told they didn't like her. She felt that and eventually left. She IS a believer. She did nothing that detracted from the group or the Lord's work.

One time a man showed up who had an issue with drugs. He was a very high strung but nice person and wasn't on the drugs when he came to our church so far as I know. Our congregation seemed almost afraid to express themselves in worship. This man was lifting his hands up in worship and praising the Lord. Someone behind him complained to the pastor that he was distracting them. To this day I don't understand why these people didn't just move instead of complaining. This man was taken aside by the pastor for a little 'conference'. You might guess the results. He left as well. 

Then there was my situation which still hurts to this very day. A woman had joined our WT who could not sing. I should have tested her ability more. She had a wonderful personality and a heart for worship aside from that one little issue which means a lot if you're on a WT.  I tried to make it work with no results. EVERYONE was coming to me complaining including the pastor and his wife. I knew I had to do something. I deliberated on what to do without causing her any pain. I finally decided after numerous complaints I had to let her go, so I did it in the most polite way I could think of. I brought out how many things she was truly good at but singing wasn't one of them. The results weren't good. Phone calls went all around to leadership from her about me. I received a scathing rebuke from that pastor for how I had handled it which I found interesting because no one else had the gonads to approach her but all of them had complained. Needless to say I left that church and hoped I would never enter another one anything like it. Hadn't he trusted me as leader of music to make these decisions?

Why am I bringing this all out? because to say " There are no perfect churches" skirts the issue that WE are the church and if we can't be Christians one day per week why should anyone be interested in attending our church??? We are SUPPOSED to be different.

Where do we draw the line? While I agree we should make allowances for the humanity in each of us, it's just too easy to pass it all off as something that's going to happen while never looking in a mirror to see if we can all be better believers. Look at church the way God intended it to be and act accordingly. If you don't have the Spirit then don't pretend. Stay home and watch the football game or decide to get right with God.

Where do we draw the line? At the vision and goal of the church as a whole. 

We are not, or should not be children to take offense when things don't suit us. The church can you provide you  the garden plot, but whether you plant crops or weeds is entirely up to you.

But what you have said has proven my point. There are no perfect people, so there are no perfect churches. No matter how good your intentions are , other people are not going to share them

 A Church is made up of

• The faithful
• The flake
• The peaceful
• The dramatic
• The servant
• The demanding
• The overcomer
• The victim
• The hard worker
• The slacker
• The stoic
• The complainer
• The longsufferer
• The whiner
• The quiet one
• The loud one
• The generous one
• The greedy one
• The wild one
• The staid one
• The scholar
• The unlearned
• the humble
• the proud
• The sheep
• The goats
• the wolves

This is what God has to but together to make one church. There is nothing unify them but the vision of the church.  

So what do we do?  

We overlook each other's weakness, we do not take offense at the weaknesses of others, and if the attitude of the church becomes Toxic.....we leave and find another...realizing that it will not be perfect either.

There will always be a "Sister Bertha Better Than You" or a "Bombacious Bob"  but what effect you let them have on you....is up to you.

 

 

[Starise]

17 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

We are not, or should not be children to take offense when things don't suit us.

And I think this comes along with maturity in forgiving and overlooking things sometimes. This advice goes for pastors too not just the flock. I think sometimes pastors feel they should always get whatever they want because they are pastors.

True there are no perfect people but back to my point: This doesn't mean we all should not look in a mirror now and then. Acceptance of bad behavior is like condoning it.

One word comes to mind in all of my experiences that has led to the most trouble. That word? COMPLAINING. Maybe I'm complaining about the complainers lol.

I don't see it that way. I'm bringing out what really happens sometimes and hopefully suggesting ways these things can be corrected.

If there is more putting down than lifting up, more complaining than praising, more negativity than looking at what the Lord has done. Inflexibility because " this is the way we do things here"........well. This is why some people end up in bars instead of churches.

That one word though COMPLAINING. The discontent with everything. If everything is good we look for something to complain about. Unfortunately or fortunately all depending on how you see it, I tend to live a detached sort of existence sometimes. I really don't want to know too much.

36 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

No matter how good your intentions are , other people are not going to share them

What does this mean exactly? On the positive side of things I have seem many fruitful group efforts at church.