Famine

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

This too is a self-contradictory statement. 

It is self-contradictory because if you believed the Olivet Discourse you would not believe it is about modern events. In other words, by claiming the text is about our present day and near-future you have told everyone you do not actually believe the Word. The reason this is the case is because Jesus plainly stated they, the disciples to whom he was speaking at the time, would see and hear the events described. They themselves would see it! Jesus plainly stated they would be handed over to tribulation. Jesus plainly stated those events would occur with "this generation" and the conjugation of the Greek in that passage is near demonstrative, which means those words CANNOT be interpreted or otherwise made to be a reference to any future far distant from the moment he was speaking those words. 

Look it up. 

Read the Word exactly as written. 

 

 

Let me suggest you do something else, luigi. The Olivet Discourse is part of a narrative that Matthew records as a single day. It begins in Matthew 21:18, the day after Jesus entered Jerusalem, and concludes at Matthew 26:5 with the Jewish leaders plotting to kill Jesus. A few days earlier Jesus had cleaned out his father's house (in accordance with the law Lev. 14:33-57; Mt. 12:43-45), returned to find it re-infested, declared it desolate and condemned to be destroyed, and a few days later he was dead and a new temple had been resurrected (Jn. 2:13-22). 

Nothing in Matthew 24 is about the 21st century. You have not believed God's word as written. 

 

 

Think me wrong? Then answer a single simple question: to whom do the personal pronouns in the passage refer?  

To whom is Jesus speaking when he says, "See to it that no one misleads you,"? About whom is he speaking when he uses the pronoun "you"? 
To whom is Jesus speaking when he says, "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened...,"? About whom is he speaking when he uses the pronoun "you"?
To whom is Jesus speaking when he says, "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated..."? About whom is he speaking when he uses the pronoun "you"?
To whom is Jesus speaking when he says, "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation...."? About whom is he speaking when he uses the pronoun "you"? 

Jesus is speaking to the disciples about the disciples concerning events they would see, hear, or experience themselves. He did so in direct answer to a specific three-part question they asked him earlier in the day based on things he'd said on their way out of the temple. 

I mean no disrespect but the evidence shows you do not believe in the Word. What these posts show is you believe in a 19th century apocalyptic interpretation of God's Word and not what the words in His Word actually factually, demonstrably state. Go back and read the text as written. 

The generation who see the calamitous events in the Olivet discourse (and Revelation 8), shall not perish before the end of the current age under Satan terminates.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

The generation who see the calamitous events in the Olivet discourse (and Revelation 8), shall not perish before the end of the current age under Satan terminates.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And in and around 70 AD that generation did end. It is about Israel and Judah. Not about 21st century Americans etc. This generation... not THAT FUTURE generation that the pre-mil advocates cannot stop talking about. If you keep saying this not only are you preaching falsehood, but it does not change facts no matter how many pulpits and TV episodes it comes from.

[luigi]

2 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

And in and around 70 AD that generation did end. It is about Israel and Judah. Not about 21st century Americans etc. This generation... not THAT FUTURE generation that the pre-mil advocates cannot stop talking about. If you keep saying this not only are you preaching falsehood, but it does not change facts no matter how many pulpits and TV episodes it comes from.

Justin, the people who were in Jerusalem in 70AD were the faithless, who were contrary to the Lord, and upon whom the Lord enacted retribution for their having persecuted and exiled earlier the faithful (Acts 8:1), (1 Thessalonians 2:16). The Lord in the Olivet discourse is therefore not providing information on the unfaithful, unpleasing to Him in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

[Justin Adams]

23 minutes ago, luigi said:

Justin, the people who were in Jerusalem in 70AD were the faithless

Wrong. Many believers went to Pella when jerusalem was overrun. Not one was lost. You have to get some good history to read. Not some later indoctrination. Read how many became believers after Pentecost. Thousands.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Justin Adams

[luigi]

11 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Wrong. Many believers went to Pella when jerusalem was overrun. Not one was lost. You have to get some good history to read. Not some later indoctrination. Read how many became believers after Pentecost. Thousands.

I showed you Acts 8:1 which clearly states all the faithful with the exception of the Apostles were exiled from Jerusalem. What was left in Jerusalem some years after the expulsion of the faithful was the debris upon whom the Lords wrath fell.

So ask yourself the question: Is the Lord informing us in the Olivet discourse about the faithless murderous debris left in 70 AD Jerusalem?

[Justin Adams]

9 minutes ago, luigi said:

faithless murderous debris left in 70 AD Jerusalem

The Saints Went Back to Jerusalem from Pella After AD 70

If you’ve studied first century history, you’re probably familiar with the story about the followers of Christ who fled from Judea to Pella just before the Jewish-Roman War began in AD 66. The story of their flight was told by early church leaders including Eusebius (AD 263-339), Epiphanius (AD 315-403), and Remigius (AD 437-533) – and perhaps also by Josephus (Wars 2.14.2, 2.20.1). They obeyed the words of Jesus (Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19, Luke 21:20-23) and were protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years (Revelation 12:14). See this post for more details on that story.

I think the story of what happened to those believers after the war is even better. Jeffrey Butz, professor of World Religions at Penn State University, documents in his book, “The Secret Legacy of Jesus” (2009), that many of them returned to Jerusalem and built a Christian meeting place where the Upper Room (Acts 1:12-14) had been (p. 146). According to Eusebius and Hegesippus (AD 110-180), the person who led them to Pella and then back to Jerusalem was Symeon the son of Clopas.

Who was Symeon? He was the first cousin of Jesus (John 19:25). He was also the second bishop of Jerusalem, who was appointed to that position when the first bishop, James (Acts 15:13), was martyred in AD 62 (Antiquities 20:9.1). Eusebius wrote the following about Symeon’s appointment:

“After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph” (Church History, Book III, Chapter 11).

Symeon is mentioned in Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 as one of Christ’s brothers (and also referred to in I Corinthians 9:5). However, The Pulpit Commentary explains why he was believed to be Jesus’ cousin rather than His brother:

“Some have thought that these were literally brethren of our Lord, sons of Joseph and Mary… But, on the whole, the most probable opinion is that they were cousins of our Lord… There is evidence that there were four sons of Clopas and Mary, whose names were James, and Joses, and Simon (or Symeon), and Judas. Mary the wife of Clopas is mentioned by St. Matthew (Matthew 27:56) as the mother of James the less and of Joses. Jude describes himself (Jude 1:5) as the brother of James; and Simon, or Symeon, is mentioned in Eusebius as the son of Clopas. It must be remembered also that the word ἀδελφός, like the Hebrew word which it expresses, means not only ‘a brother,’ but generally ‘a near kinsman.’”

Symeon was the Bishop of Jerusalem until he was crucified in AD 107. He lived a long life, having been born about a decade before Christ. Hegesippus wrote this about Symeon’s death:

“Certain of these heretics brought accusation against Symeon, the son of Clopas, on the ground that he was a descendant of David and a Christian; and thus he suffered martyrdom, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, while Trajan was emperor and Atticus governor” (Eusebius, Church History, Book III, Chapter 32).

Including Symeon, there were 14 bishops of the church in Jerusalem between the First Great Revolt (AD 66-73) and the Second Great Revolt (AD 132-135). That final revolt resulted in the leveling of Jerusalem, a new Roman city, the renaming of Judea, and all Jews being banished from the area. Those 14 Jewish bishops, along with their non-Jewish successors after AD 135, are listed here and also here.

https://answeringisraelonly.wordpress.com/2019/01/03/the-saints-went-back-to-jerusalem-from-pella-after-ad-70/

[luigi]

18 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The Saints Went Back to Jerusalem from Pella After AD 70

If you’ve studied first century history, you’re probably familiar with the story about the followers of Christ who fled from Judea to Pella just before the Jewish-Roman War began in AD 66. The story of their flight was told by early church leaders including Eusebius (AD 263-339), Epiphanius (AD 315-403), and Remigius (AD 437-533) – and perhaps also by Josephus (Wars 2.14.2, 2.20.1). They obeyed the words of Jesus (Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19, Luke 21:20-23) and were protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years (Revelation 12:14). See this post for more details on that story.

I think the story of what happened to those believers after the war is even better. Jeffrey Butz, professor of World Religions at Penn State University, documents in his book, “The Secret Legacy of Jesus” (2009), that many of them returned to Jerusalem and built a Christian meeting place where the Upper Room (Acts 1:12-14) had been (p. 146). According to Eusebius and Hegesippus (AD 110-180), the person who led them to Pella and then back to Jerusalem was Symeon the son of Clopas.

Who was Symeon? He was the first cousin of Jesus (John 19:25). He was also the second bishop of Jerusalem, who was appointed to that position when the first bishop, James (Acts 15:13), was martyred in AD 62 (Antiquities 20:9.1). Eusebius wrote the following about Symeon’s appointment:

“After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph” (Church History, Book III, Chapter 11).

Symeon is mentioned in Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 as one of Christ’s brothers (and also referred to in I Corinthians 9:5). However, The Pulpit Commentary explains why he was believed to be Jesus’ cousin rather than His brother:

“Some have thought that these were literally brethren of our Lord, sons of Joseph and Mary… But, on the whole, the most probable opinion is that they were cousins of our Lord… There is evidence that there were four sons of Clopas and Mary, whose names were James, and Joses, and Simon (or Symeon), and Judas. Mary the wife of Clopas is mentioned by St. Matthew (Matthew 27:56) as the mother of James the less and of Joses. Jude describes himself (Jude 1:5) as the brother of James; and Simon, or Symeon, is mentioned in Eusebius as the son of Clopas. It must be remembered also that the word ἀδελφός, like the Hebrew word which it expresses, means not only ‘a brother,’ but generally ‘a near kinsman.’”

Symeon was the Bishop of Jerusalem until he was crucified in AD 107. He lived a long life, having been born about a decade before Christ. Hegesippus wrote this about Symeon’s death:

“Certain of these heretics brought accusation against Symeon, the son of Clopas, on the ground that he was a descendant of David and a Christian; and thus he suffered martyrdom, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, while Trajan was emperor and Atticus governor” (Eusebius, Church History, Book III, Chapter 32).

Including Symeon, there were 14 bishops of the church in Jerusalem between the First Great Revolt (AD 66-73) and the Second Great Revolt (AD 132-135). That final revolt resulted in the leveling of Jerusalem, a new Roman city, the renaming of Judea, and all Jews being banished from the area. Those 14 Jewish bishops, along with their non-Jewish successors after AD 135, are listed here and also here.

https://answeringisraelonly.wordpress.com/2019/01/03/the-saints-went-back-to-jerusalem-from-pella-after-ad-70/

There is this documentary on TV, (I do not remember the title), about Jerusalem in 70 AD prior to its termination. The people within were rebellious against the Romans, crime and murder were commonplace, and there were no saints that returned to the city from where they had earlier been forcibly expelled. If any had returned (which data is not in the bible), they would quickly have been murdered by the faithless who had expelled them with warning not to come back.

It seems to me you prefer some story some supposed historian made up, over what the bible clearly states what transpired with the faithful at the hands of the faithless in Jerusalem, and the punishment that God enacted upon the faithless for their treatment of the faithful.

 

 

[Arrabon]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:44 PM, luigi said:

In the Olivet discourse the Lord tells everyone to watch for the signs that will come when the end times are approaching. One of these signs are famines throughout various areas of the world. I don't know how many of you watch the news, but not only is the United States experiencing dire agricultural conditions throughout the West and Midwest with intense heat, fires, and flooding, but so too are many other nations experiencing these type of conditions, which is significantly impeding their agricultural production. Time to stock up on some long shelf life foods like rice, oats and oatmeal, and whole grain wheat kernels while they're still available. These bad times are coming upon the whole world, most of whom will be taken by complete surprise when it commences. Take heed while you can.

 

 

Been wondering more and more about this as the "COVD VARIANT" has become even bigger than the first go round of COVID-19, and more transferable.

There's a lot of discussion about face masks and the vaccinations, and requirements, which I don't want to get into.

Because of how our moral culture is changing since I was a little boy in the 40's, and how the churches have changed dramatically in what is taught, and what behavior is accepted, it's hard not to start wondering if this isn't a curse brought on by God, like He did to Pharaoh in Moses time, and maybe one more warning that we are getting closer to when Christ comes back.

In Matthew 24:42, and Matthew 25:13, Jesus said to "WATCH therefore, for you do not know what hour your lord is coming."

All through New Testament scripture, we are given examples of the things that will begin to happen leading up to Christs return, and the word "WATCH"  seems to be an important part of that discussion.

I looked up the word WATCH in the context of these 2 above verses in some of my Greek study books, and the general meaning seems to denote a mindfulness of threatening dangers, with a conscience earnestness and an alert mind, combined with a mind of vigilance and prayer in regard to a certain day or hour when the Son of Man shall arrive.

I've never been a fear monger or someone to cry "WOLF",  but I'm also not one to stick my head in the sand, and the scriptures do give us a strong indication of what life will start becoming like like when we get closer to Christs return, and what the weather will be like, and the increase in wars, and the general ungodliness of mankind growing in what sounds like all area's of life, and right now from my perspective, life is getting pretty crazy in most of our culture.

Just one believers observations, over quite a long period of time.

What about the rest of you reading this? 

Any personal thoughts?

My name is Arrabon

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

Been wondering more and more about this as the "COVD VARIANT" has become even bigger than the first go round of COVID-19, and more transferable.

There's a lot of discussion about face masks and the vaccinations, and requirements, which I don't want to get into.

Because of how our moral culture is changing since I was a little boy in the 40's, and how the churches have changed dramatically in what is taught, and what behavior is accepted, it's hard not to start wondering if this isn't a curse brought on by God, like He did to Pharaoh in Moses time, and maybe one more warning that we are getting closer to when Christ comes back.

In Matthew 24:42, and Matthew 25:13, Jesus said to "WATCH therefore, for you do not know what hour your lord is coming."

All through New Testament scripture, we are given examples of the things that will begin to happen leading up to Christs return, and the word "WATCH"  seems to be an important part of that discussion.

I looked up the word WATCH in the context of these 2 above verses in some of my Greek study books, and the general meaning seems to denote a mindfulness of threatening dangers, with a conscience earnestness and an alert mind, combined with a mind of vigilance and prayer in regard to a certain day or hour when the Son of Man shall arrive.

I've never been a fear monger or someone to cry "WOLF",  but I'm also not one to stick my head in the sand, and the scriptures do give us a strong indication of what life will start becoming like like when we get closer to Christs return, and what the weather will be like, and the increase in wars, and the general ungodliness of mankind growing in what sounds like all area's of life, and right now from my perspective, life is getting pretty crazy in most of our culture.

Just one believers observations, over quite a long period of time.

What about the rest of you reading this? 

Any personal thoughts?

My name is Arrabon

Hello Arrabon, Currently the Lord is not in wrath mode. His wrath upon the faithless commences at the end of the beasts reign, at which time He will commence to dispense His wrath upon those who have been destroying the earth (Revelation 11:18), due to the love they have had for the things their hands produce (Revelation 9:20), which today is through fossil fuel burning industries, and what will later be the power from the sea that causes the beast to rise from the sea, which is another description for the bottomless pit from which it shall rise (Revelation 17:8).

Right now I see us somewhere near the onset of the day of the Lord in which He is now once again shaking the earth, as well as heaven this time, so that the false things that can be shaken out are, thereby leaving those whose faith cannot be shaken, remaining (Hebrews 12:26-27).

Christ commences to reign at the conclusion to the beasts reign (Revelation 11:15), at which time His wrath upon the faithless also commences (Revelation 11:18). 

[luigi]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

That is not what the verses states. My case was just proved: you do NOT believe the scriptures. First you make a statement about what you believe the verse means and then you quote the verse showing the verses actually states something different. If Jesus had wanted to say "that generation," then he could and would have said "that generation," but that is demonstrably NOT what he said. As I stated previously, the Greek is conjugated in the near demonstrative - it CANNOT be interpreted to be about a far distant future. 

 

You say you believe in God's word. Then do so. Don't believe someone else's interpretation; believe what is actually stated: this generation shall not pass away until all things be fulfilled. That is what is stated, that is what was intended, and that is how it should be read. 

If you read any story, fact or fiction, the context is what is relevant. The data in the Olivet discourse is about the end of the current age under Satan. Did the current age under Satan conclude in 70 AD? No it did not. Has the Lord commenced to reign, which in correlation with Revelation 11, would mean the beasts reign having concluded? No, the beasts reign has yet to even begin, and so the Lord has not commenced to reign. 

As such, the context of the data is that the generation to whom the signs in the Olivet discourse (and Revelation 8) pertain is the generation who will not disappear prior to the Lords return.