God did not teach us these things

[Alive]

@Marathoner

I try to keep in mind my own blind spots that are at times more up front than other times and then extend the same Grace I require to others.

Healthy debate is a good thing and it causes us to dig deeper into scripture---this reality is something that I thank the Lord and brethren for. I like for my thoughts to be challenged--iron and iron.

The issue is when it gets personal and transgresses love and the TOS---but in a written format, its easy to read into a person what is not actually there.

Its kinda of a take a breath thing.

:-)

[Marathoner]

16 minutes ago, Alive said:

@Marathoner

I try to keep in mind my own blind spots that are at times more up front than other times and then extend the same Grace I require to others.

Healthy debate is a good thing and it causes us to dig deeper into scripture---this reality is something that I thank the Lord and brethren for. I like for my thoughts to be challenged--iron and iron.

The issue is when it gets personal and transgresses love and the TOS---but in a written format, its easy to read into a person what is not actually there.

Its kinda of a take a breath thing.

:-)

There's nothing wrong with disagreement, brother. That wasn't the point of my post. 

There are brothers and sisters with whom I agree with on much, and also whom I disagree with in this matter or that matter; my esteem for brethren is not diminished nor tarnished by disagreement. As the apostle John tells us, any spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and this is the standard which we ourselves ought to uphold. We would do well to remember this. 

It is enough to state one's opinion but as we have seen on this forum and also in face-to-face life, that is rarely the final word on the matter. This is what I'm addressing here, something which I know as a moderator you know all too well. 

It's quite alright to dismiss 1 Enoch but it's neither acceptable nor edifying to accuse those who do not. Simple, yes?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Marathoner

[Dennis1209]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:41 AM, Hopefully said:

1. Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and of all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.

2. Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and they transgressed and corrupted all their ways.

3. Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots:

4. Armers taught the solution of sorcery;

5. Barkayal taught the observers of the stars;

6. Akibeel taught signs;

7. Tamiel taught astronomy;

8. And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon.

9. And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.
 

From the book of Enoch chapter 8, these are the things taught by fallen angels. 

Before I studied these subjects in detail, I use to ponder. Who was the genius sitting around his campfire looking at copper ore, iron ore, tin, etc. Then decided to heat the rock up hot enough to smelt the metal out of the rock. He couldn't extract the metal because the fire was not hot enough. Then he thought, I know, I'll add some coke and introduce forced air to my fire, that will increase the temperature to melt the rock, so I can separate and extract metal, then forge it into weapons.

That seems to be something not stumbled upon, thought-out, or engineered; but taught and learned. 

Same way with the coloring and highlighting of the eyes and lips, to be more seductive to men. I've seen beautiful women in my life time, and when they removed their makeup; well, I'll leave it at that. 

I could comment more on the explanations on the book of Enoch. One of the most glaring is; astronomy and cycle / phases of the moon. Just to be brief; how long would it take to record the lunar cycle of the moon and record it? What does even one cloudy night do, much less a bunch of them? They would constantly have to start all over from the beginning again. 

I also believe the celestial bodies told a biblical story, that was corrupted and perverted by the fallen Watchers. 

[Dennis1209]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:38 AM, Starise said:

Yes and when they were here they made structures we have no idea how to build even today. Look no further than  the Giza pyramids of Egypt, Machu Picchu in Peru, or Baalbek in Lebanon, the Moai of Easter Island and Stonehenge of England among others. The Kailasa temple is considered one of the most impressive cave temples in India carved into solid rock. There are other similar structures. 

The usual line on cable TV is they were either directly made or supervised to be made by ancient astronauts or an advanced race of beings ( they got that part right). I am much more prone to see the fallen angels acting as deities building these things using some kind of vibrational frequency technology to move and cut the stones.

There also appears to be a defining line of these megalithic structures. Secular history and science claim, the shambles and small little imperfect pyramids came first [same way in S. America and globally], and it was trial and error producing the Great Pyramids. They claim that technology and all those people were somehow lost? Or there had to be a great global dumbing down all of a sudden? From evolution, to de-evolution so to speak. 

I believe they have it reversed; that they tried to copy the structures but could not. 

[Dennis1209]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:42 PM, other one said:

when I brought this information to Worthy in 2003 I was called a heretic.  You can't understand how refreshing it is to see people discussing it.

Same way when I was discussing UFOs and ET relating to Bible prophecy in the General Discussion thread, and it was immediately transferred to the Controversial Issues forum. I haven't experienced that in a while?

[Dennis1209]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:47 AM, Starise said:

Without calling anyone out I will say I vehemently disagree that men could have built some of these structures.

Like so many other arguments we set up these straw men when really people have not done their home work on it.

The 'wise' thing to do is to look at the structures in depth and how EXACTLY they were put together. I have been around the trades in one way or another all my life. I KNOW even now men could not have done some of these feats all by themselves. It is ludicrous to think so. I understand simple leverage. This is WAY beyond all of that.  Any close scrutiny dispels that myth that common men made all of it. One quick search into the findings from trained structural engineers into many of these structures leaves only one explanation. Men either had lots of help from sources far beyond their capabilities or they didn't build them at all. 

My simple advice to anyone who really doesn't understand any of it in great detail, who instead relies on biased articles to make their points should either stay out of the debate or do some of their own homework.

I am not referencing the whole Enoch narrative as my source. I am simply looking at the structures and making a determination.

I don't buy the ancient astronaut theory, but I do believe fallen angels and/or their offspring were involved. That part of it is my own theory which I believe is shared by others and supported by numerous findings. 

I'd like to dovetail on your post and add: Every ancient civilization "globally" had the same 'myths' and same gods, called by different names by their language and culture. How do the same myths and beliefs of Titans and demi-gods thrive through the centuries throughout the world? The Mesopotamian myths, the Epic of Gilgamesh and so on. They were glamorized and perverted from historical facts and supernatural beings [Gen. 6:1-4].

A number of secular historians' comment on what was believed in their day and prior to that; Herodotus [the father of history], secular Jewish historian Josephus; even Peter and Jude quote and refer to the book of Enoch [2nd century B.C.]. Literate Hebrews and Jews read and believed other things also. 

It is highly improbable mortal man could quarry hundreds of 100-300-ton rocks, then transport them multiple miles uphill on skids or rollers; much less fit them with such precision, and hoist them with any sort of wooden crane, levers and pully system. 

It makes much more sense fallen angel technology was used. If giants were on the earth in those days, and after that; in strength and endurance, how many men would it take to equal the strength of just one giant? 

If one question could be answered with certainty and with little controversy. Do the Great Pyramids and megalithic structures predate Noah's flood? I think that would resolve that question. Could those structures have withstood the violent force of the deluge, earthquakes and continental splits? 

Archology has unearthed 18-pound hammers and tools that ordinary humans could not possibly use in construction. They claim they had to be ceremonial or symbolic, not for use. Those same people believe we evolved from star dust and pond scum. 

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV) It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Revelation 1:6 (KJV) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Acts 17:11 (KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Perhaps I'm cherry picking and taking these scriptures out of context?

[Waggles]

If you read the of the history of the Sumerian civilization and their achievements - remember that this first civilization came about suddenly and pretty well invented all the fundamentals of civilization suddenly - writing and maths, axles, wheels and wagons, bricks for buildings, irrigation and water management, agriculture and farming, metallurgy, weapons, clothing and fabrics, beer, etc, etc, etc... 

The Sumerians claimed in their writings and religion that gods came forth and taught them all of this. 

>Religion
Sumerians believed in anthropomorphic polytheism, or of many gods in human form, which were specific to each city-state. The core pantheon consisted of An (heaven), Enki (a healer and friend to humans), Enlil (gave spells spirits must obey), Inanna (love and war), Utu (sun-god), and Sin (moon-god).

Technology
Sumerians invented or improved a wide range of technology, including the wheel, cuneiform script, arithmetic, geometry, irrigation, saws and other tools, sandals, chariots, harpoons, and beer.< from https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/the-sumerians/ 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Waggles

[Kelly2363]

And all of this to uphold a blasphemous book and an occult oracle. Its no wonder the church is in ruins.

 

[Waggles]

Just now, Kelly2363 said:

And all of this to uphold a blasphemous book and an occult oracle. Its no wonder the church is in ruins.

 

I usually enjoy your contributions here on Worthy, but this time you are writing foolish nonsense. 

I have a copy of the 1st Book of Enoch (translated by R.H. Charles 1917) and enjoy reading it. 

It is not blasphemous nor an occult oracle; and if it were so then Jude would not have directly cited this book in his epistle. 

This book is informative and gives much information on the spiritual realm that our Bibles allude to without details. But it also refers to the coming judgements and wrath of God upon this wicked world in our last days.

There are are other second and third books of Enoch but they are not comparable to the acknowledged first book of Enoch which would have been known and read in the second temple period by Jewish scholars. 

[Starise]

7 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

And all of this to uphold a blasphemous book and an occult oracle. Its no wonder the church is in ruins.

 

You seem to have quite missed the whole point my friend. I realize now I likely approached my response to you in the same spirit it was sent to me which I confess was not the right thing to do HOWEVER all methods of explanation aside, I don't see how you can ignore history. Neither can I see why you continue to the 1 Enoch as evil or a gateway to the occult. You must have a good reason for your opinion?

Even if we could nullify Enoch 1 as a canonical book. I don't see occult gateways in it?