Are politics wrong for the Christian?

[Made In USA]

8 minutes ago, other one said:

Neither, but we can have input as to living in this world with each other and that's what politics is about, not where you spend eternity....    and there is no reason why a person can't participate in both...

So you would promote a system that causes division and strife  between believers? How is that going to help us bear fruit of the Spirit?

 

Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [h]belong to Christ Jesus crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Made In USA

[Made In USA]

Give Caesar his government, we have the kingdom. Is the saying true?

[other one]

8 minutes ago, Made In USA said:

So you would promote a system that causes division and strife  between believers? How is that going to help us bear fruit of the Spirit?

I'm not sure that is happening today..  The strife is not between believers from my personal experience.

[Made In USA]

9 minutes ago, other one said:

I'm not sure that is happening today..  The strife is not between believers from my personal experience.

It must be between believers seeing how Christians belong to two different political factions. Why do you feel the need to govern the world? Isnt that God's job? Cant we just concern ourselves with seeking the kingdom instead of governing a country? If we do that and pray for the world maybe that would be more effective. God wont hear our prayers if we do evil though. And the question is do politics lead to evil?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Made In USA

[Made In USA]

If we cant force unbelievers to follow the gospel, how can we govern them? Should we imprison and fine them for not Obeying God?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Made In USA

[Made In USA]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No! The first command God ever gave humanity was to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. That directive can be found reiterated in various wordings throughout the Bible. One of the last commands Jesus ever uttered was to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching his commands. The idea that Christians should not invest in and become involved in politicians is a theology that says there is a place in human existence where God is not allowed. We can and will be Christians everywhere but politics; we will concede that arena to the worldly members of the world. 

That is ungodly. 

It was this very thinking (it began to gain favor in the 1800s with the teachings of John Darby) that led to the increase of existentialism, relativism, postmodernism, and post-postmodernism. Christians stopped participating in the marketplace of ideas (even though we have the solutions for which the world yearns) and then decades later wondered why the world was so much more a mess than it was when we actively participated. 

If I correctly understand the intent of posting this passage then it is an abuse of scripture. If the mention of "the affairs of everyday life" is intended to mean "politics" then that is a false equivalence. Furthermore, Paul was using "soldier" and "good soldier" as a metaphor. Soldiers focus on soldiering so they don't get distracted because distractions can be deadly in combat. Christians' battle is first within and then, second, to overcome the world....... without distraction. If tradition is true and Paul took the gospel to the courts of Caesar then Paul did not follow his own words if those words are correctly construed to say "stay out of politics". It is reasonable to wonder why Paul didn't just come right out and plainly state, "Stay out of politics," if that's what he meant. We can't have interpretation that contradicts actual apostolic practice. 

I would respectfully suggest the wrong clause was underlined. The words that should have been underlined and placed in bold-faced italics are, "accurately handling the word of truth," because when that is done then every single domain of human existence becomes subject to the authority and wisdom of God's word. It becomes subject to the accurately handled authority anf wisdom of the word of truth. We don't leave politics out as an arena that's off-limits. 

I'm not sure why that was thought to be relevant but there is a huge irony quoting this verse because the Corinthians were one of the most divided congregations in the New Testament era. The divisions already existed! The verse is also taken out of context because Paul was writing about what we might call sectarian differences and those who were forming preferences for individual apostles. Paul was NOT writing about whether or not Christians should run for or otherwise seek political office, become involved as financial donors or backers, or simply vote. Paul held out an ideal of unity and uniformity but there were plenty of places Paul himself allowed for diversity. The unity he asserted was the uniformity of the gospel itself, not a uniformity of its application in all areas of life..... especially not for gentile populations. In point of fact the epistolary says very little directly about how Christians should behave outside of Church (the ekklesia, not the building). What can be reasonably inferred from what is stated is open to some diversity. So we would not want to conflate or confuse diversity with division; especially not in a pluralistic democratic or representative republican society. 

What we would want to do is rightly handle the word of truth and disclose and practice it in such a manner that it is persuasive and..... fruitful. Fruitless handling of God's word is not good politics. It's not good Christianity, either. 

 

My wife and I will be helping out at the polls for three hours every Monday this month, handing out partisan flyers for candidates we support and collaboratively acting as observers with those from other parties to ensure voting policies, regulations, and laws are followed. We will do so as politely, respectfully, and winsomely as we can. If anyone asks why I support candidate X I will tell them about the policies of that candidate and when I am asked about my manners and respect and articulate presentation I will tell them about Jesus and I will do so in reliance on the Word of God and both the sensitivity to the Holy Spirit's guidanace and that of the stranger with whom I am speaking. 

Why would I think it wrong for a Christian to do that? 

 

 

 

 

I encourage everyone to read the Francis Schaeffer trilogy. Next to the Bible, it is a book every Christian should read because it teaches us how to develop a Christian worldview applicable to all domains of life. It doesn't tell you what to believe, but how to believe. 

Go and subdue the earth doesn't mean to subdue each other or unbelievers. Teaching the commands of Christ doesn't mean to turn it into the law of the land and force others to obey it. Jesus kingdom isnt of this world and so they don't fight, remember? Why didn't his apostles subdue the Romans? I think you are wrong about many things you have said. Notice i don't need long winded speeches to get my point across. Short and sweet is better. Please, for the sake of the thread don't post such long posts. Thank you.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Made In USA

[Mike Mclees]

1 hour ago, Made In USA said:

Go and subdue the earth doesn't mean to subdue each other or unbelievers. Teaching the commands of Christ doesn't mean to turn it into the law of the land and force others to obey it. Jesus kingdom isnt of this world and so they don't fight, remember? Why didn't his apostles subdue the Romans? I think you are wrong about many things you have said. Notice i don't need long winded speeches to get my point across. Short and sweet is better. Please, for the sake of the thread don't post such long posts. Thank you.

I agree with short and sweet so here one.

 

¹³ Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

¹⁴ Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

¹⁵ And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

¹⁶ And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

¹⁷ Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

 

Belial  is to be in league with doers of evil. in other words it is cooperation with those who support what is wicked. Remember When SCOTUS ruled for homosexual marriage and made it a law of the land. Are they  not still squabbling over abortion. What is it that you think  our government is doing for you or any Christian. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Mike Mclees

[Made In USA]

2 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

I agree with short and sweet so here one.

 

¹³ Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

¹⁴ Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

¹⁵ And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

¹⁶ And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

¹⁷ Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

 

Belial  is to being league with doers of evil. in other words it is coperation who support what is wicked. Remember When SCOTUS ruled for homosexual marriage and made it a law of the land. Are they  not still squabbling over abortion. What is it that you think  our government is doing for you or any Christian. 

Thank you. I believe politicians just lead us astray from the path of the kingdom and bearing fruit.

[Made In USA]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I never said subdue the earth meant any such thing. I did not imply or at anytime remotely insinuate any such thing. Nothing I posted should be construed in any way to say any such thing. 

I never said the commands of Christ were to be turned into "the law of the land" (whatever that might mean) or that others should be forced to obey it. I did not imply any such thing or remotely insinuate any such thing and nothing I posted should in any way be construed to say such a thing. Especially since I explicitly stated 1) this starts within, 2) should be practiced and not just uttered, and 3) an affirmation the pluralistic society in which most of us currently live

No, I don't remember. I find those words a gross misrepresentation of scripture. Jesus' kingdom was not of this world but if definitely came upon this world. A kingdom not of this world that is on this world. Some in the kingdom actually act as if that is true. Some don't. 

Matthew 11:12-24
"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.  For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.  And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.  He who has ears to hear, let him hear.  But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,  and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'  For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds. Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.  'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.  Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.  And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.  Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.'"

2 Corinthians 10:3-6
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,  for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.  We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,  and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete."

Scriptures says otherwise. I could probably quote another dozen passages that speak of the fight Christians are to wage both within and without. We are to be a light to everyone. 

Matthew 5:13-20
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.  You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;  nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.  Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.  Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.  For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The inner and outer life of a Christian are not mutually exclusive conditions and there is no place in all of creation where the Creator does not rule. The idea the light can be put under the bushel in the arena of politics is not scriptural and that position can be arrived at only through a selective and eisegetic use of scripture (that will invariably run into conflict with the whole of it).

?????? 

Why in all of heaven and earth would you imagine that a reasonable question to ask? How is it rational to ask "Are politics wrong for the Christian?" and imagine that has anything to do with subduing Romans in a fight? 

Btw, we did subdue the Romans. Until the introduction of Darbyism in the early 1800s Christianity overcame every single competing worldview it encountered. The gospel moved science, philosophy, art, and even politics forward in ways no other religion has ever done and in a more enduring way and it will continue to do so if the naysayers will get out of the way and stop obstructing the gospel from doing what it does: transforming humanity one human at a time in all domains of life. 

Great. Not only are you endowed with the ability to think differently and hold different views, you are invited to make a case for what you believe but so far everything in your post is a red herring! I don't think as you've just posted!!!! Neither do I know anyone who does think that way. I will also note I can prove you've misused scripture but I don't see you proving anything I actually posted to actually be actually incorrect. I read red herrings and straw men. I never said the Great Commission was about subduing people by force with the force of law. That's your crazy misguided view of what I posted and I will thank you not to put words in my posts posts if you think that's what I think and that's what I was saying.  

Think about how the words, "Teaching the commands of Christ doesn't mean to turn it into the law of the land and force others to obey it," read to someone who never thought those views in the first place and wonders why those words would be thought relevant at all.  Don't know where you got those ideas or how you thought they were germane to anything I posted but they are not. 

You can do three things: 1) prove anything I posted incorrect, 2) make the case for your own position (which I don't see being concisely stated), or 3) both.  

I'll bet the irony of those two statements escaped you. When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell other what and how to post. Until then your own posts are filled with fallacies and it would be good if you worked those problems out of your thinking and practice beginning with your own ability to keep the posts about the op and not about how others post. Think you can do that? 

 

 

It's all going to boil down to a single presuppositional position. Is there a place in creation where the Creator is not sovereign?  

 

The way a Christian answers that question decides his/her politics. If the answer is, "No, there is no place the Creator is not sovereign in His own creation," then politics - all politics are His to rule over and the Christian then has liberty to decide when, where, and how much to apply that unalterable truth in his/her respective life but that idea politics is wrong for a Christian is wrong. That concise enough for you? 

Im not going to argue with you. You are not being honest about your own posts. Why not respond to my other posts as well? 

About those long posts of yours. Many words dont help this discussion, it just makes people want to avoid talking to you.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Made In USA

[Made In USA]

18 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I never said subdue the earth meant any such thing. I did not imply or at anytime remotely insinuate any such thing. Nothing I posted should be construed in any way to say any such thing. 

I never said the commands of Christ were to be turned into "the law of the land" (whatever that might mean) or that others should be forced to obey it. I did not imply any such thing or remotely insinuate any such thing and nothing I posted should in any way be construed to say such a thing. Especially since I explicitly stated 1) this starts within, 2) should be practiced and not just uttered, and 3) an affirmation the pluralistic society in which most of us currently live

No, I don't remember. I find those words a gross misrepresentation of scripture. Jesus' kingdom was not of this world but if definitely came upon this world. A kingdom not of this world that is on this world. Some in the kingdom actually act as if that is true. Some don't. 

Matthew 11:12-24
"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.  For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.  And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.  He who has ears to hear, let him hear.  But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,  and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'  For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds. Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.  'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.  Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.  And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.  Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.'"

2 Corinthians 10:3-6
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,  for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.  We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,  and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete."

Scriptures says otherwise. I could probably quote another dozen passages that speak of the fight Christians are to wage both within and without. We are to be a light to everyone. 

Matthew 5:13-20
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.  You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;  nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.  Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.  Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.  For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The inner and outer life of a Christian are not mutually exclusive conditions and there is no place in all of creation where the Creator does not rule. The idea the light can be put under the bushel in the arena of politics is not scriptural and that position can be arrived at only through a selective and eisegetic use of scripture (that will invariably run into conflict with the whole of it).

?????? 

Why in all of heaven and earth would you imagine that a reasonable question to ask? How is it rational to ask "Are politics wrong for the Christian?" and imagine that has anything to do with subduing Romans in a fight? 

Btw, we did subdue the Romans. Until the introduction of Darbyism in the early 1800s Christianity overcame every single competing worldview it encountered. The gospel moved science, philosophy, art, and even politics forward in ways no other religion has ever done and in a more enduring way and it will continue to do so if the naysayers will get out of the way and stop obstructing the gospel from doing what it does: transforming humanity one human at a time in all domains of life. 

Great. Not only are you endowed with the ability to think differently and hold different views, you are invited to make a case for what you believe but so far everything in your post is a red herring! I don't think as you've just posted!!!! Neither do I know anyone who does think that way. I will also note I can prove you've misused scripture but I don't see you proving anything I actually posted to actually be actually incorrect. I read red herrings and straw men. I never said the Great Commission was about subduing people by force with the force of law. That's your crazy misguided view of what I posted and I will thank you not to put words in my posts posts if you think that's what I think and that's what I was saying.  

Think about how the words, "Teaching the commands of Christ doesn't mean to turn it into the law of the land and force others to obey it," read to someone who never thought those views in the first place and wonders why those words would be thought relevant at all.  Don't know where you got those ideas or how you thought they were germane to anything I posted but they are not. 

You can do three things: 1) prove anything I posted incorrect, 2) make the case for your own position (which I don't see being concisely stated), or 3) both.  

I'll bet the irony of those two statements escaped you. When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell other what and how to post. Until then your own posts are filled with fallacies and it would be good if you worked those problems out of your thinking and practice beginning with your own ability to keep the posts about the op and not about how others post. Think you can do that? 

 

 

It's all going to boil down to a single presuppositional position. Is there a place in creation where the Creator is not sovereign?  

 

The way a Christian answers that question decides his/her politics. If the answer is, "No, there is no place the Creator is not sovereign in His own creation," then politics - all politics are His to rule over and the Christian then has liberty to decide when, where, and how much to apply that unalterable truth in his/her respective life but that idea politics is wrong for a Christian is wrong. That concise enough for you? 

You should consider that Christians are divided over politics, and that's not Godly. If we stay out of politics God still rules over the unbelievers. That's his Job not ours.