What if others will be in heaven?

[com7fy8]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:20 PM, Amigo42 said:

The more I learn about the historic and cultural context in which the Bible was written, the more I realize that we really don't know as much as we think.

How God understands what He has said is the context > 

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;

   It shall not return to Me void,

   But it shall accomplish what I please,

   And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"

                                                   (Isaiah 55:11)

This does not say God's word will do what you can understand, but what God desires . . . what He knows He means by His word. And we can consider this > 

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, salvation is not only about getting to Heaven, but that our Father is changing us to become and to love like Jesus is and loves > as 1 John 4:17 says about "us" >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, included in our Biblical assurance of salvation is how "in this world" God's love is changing us to become "as He is".

So . . . our works don't do this. Our verses of arguing ourselves into Heaven do not change us to be perfect in God's love . . . "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment".

There are people of non-Christian groups who are busy with trying to make themselves do things, and trying to change their own selves. This is self-dependence, not depending on God; so I would not assure such people of salvation. And ones worship and depend on their own free wills to get them saved; your own human free will can not do what will save you!!

Plus, there are ones who claim the Bible, but they have only or mainly verses of arguing, but they are not becoming "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

And the time is now, not after we die > "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > which is here, now, in this evil world >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > in Philippians 2:13-16. 

This is possible with God. God Himself in us does the correction of our character so we succeed in doing all He means by His word > Hebrews 12:4-14.

[The_Patriot21]

And what if they arnt?

[Your closest friendnt]

37 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

How God understands what He has said is the context > 

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;

   It shall not return to Me void,

   But it shall accomplish what I please,

   And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"

                                                   (Isaiah 55:11)

This does not say God's word will do what you can understand, but what God desires . . . what He knows He means by His word. And we can consider this > 

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, salvation is not only about getting to Heaven, but that our Father is changing us to become and to love like Jesus is and loves > as 1 John 4:17 says about "us" >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, included in our Biblical assurance of salvation is how "in this world" God's love is changing us to become "as He is".

So . . . our works don't do this. Our verses of arguing ourselves into Heaven do not change us to be perfect in God's love . . . "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment".

There are people of non-Christian groups who are busy with trying to make themselves do things, and trying to change their own selves. This is self-dependence, not depending on God; so I would not assure such people of salvation. And ones worship and depend on their own free wills to get them saved; your own human free will can not do what will save you!!

Plus, there are ones who claim the Bible, but they have only or mainly verses of arguing, but they are not becoming "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

And the time is now, not after we die > "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > which is here, now, in this evil world >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > in Philippians 2:13-16. 

This is possible with God. God Himself in us does the correction of our character so we succeed in doing all He means by His word > Hebrews 12:4-14.

Your post is readable, it has a lot of good things and truths to it. 

You made a similar point Paul the apostle made when he said that now that are saved by DEFAULT when we believed in Jesus Christ we are not left alone to face the world. 

The Savior is also our Shepherd in this life and he gave us the Paracletous the Holy Spirit to help us, he did not left us without help after he Saved us.

So everything written about being saved from the things of this world and our selves it is written to those who are saved and are already under the blood of Jesus Christ. 

How they fair and respond it cannot change the fact that they are Saved when they first believe. 

[David1701]

22 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The day of Judgment, the day when we will appear before the Throne of Jesus Christ is not the same day for every one. 

Scripture does not say that those who have not heard the Gospel and for that reason faith or denial in Jesus Christ cannot be found in them that they will appear before Jesus Christ in that state of ignorance.

The scriptures says that everyone who will appear before the Throne of Jesus Christ will be in the Knowledge to recognize that they bowing down to the one they have believe or refuse to believe. 

The suggestion that even those who had not be given the chance to have their sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ and died that way will appear before Jesus Christ to be deal with is not supported by the message of the Gospel that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world.  Or he died for all. 

This is waffle. 

The Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 

It says that the law was given so that the whole world would become guilty before God.

It says that no-one has any excuse for sin and unbelief.

It says that it is given to every man once to die and, after that, the judgment.

There are no second chances after death; and the only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 10:13,14 (Webster)

13 For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
  14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[Your closest friendnt]

26 minutes ago, David1701 said:

This is waffle. 

The Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 

It says that the law was given so that the whole world would become guilty before God.

It says that no-one has any excuse for sin and unbelief.

It says that it is given to every man once to die and, after that, the judgment.

There are no second chances after death; and the only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 10:13,14 (Webster)

13 For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
  14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You have I agree word for word with my posting, then what is that you are protesting? 

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The problem for us all, if we will accept it, is that this op is not specifically about "the broader reality..."

 

My intention in the term the broader reality is subjective to how I understood the original OP.

 

"The more I learn about the historic and cultural context in which the Bible was written, the more I realize that we really don't know as much as we think.

What if people will be in heaven who we thought would not be like some Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus?  This might seem heretical, but what if people are saved by the blood even if they don't realize it.  There are people who live righteous lives up to the knowledge they have.  Yes, Jesus is the only way.  However, the patriarchs did not know Jesus such as Moses, David, etc. Yet, these people are saved.  This is food for thought."

 

It is also informed by how the original post was commented on and what doctrines I can see are implicit in those comments. To which implied or else stated doctrines I can either see a connective tissue with the OP itself and a likely direction thereto or else I simply ignore the comment. 

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

in the very first days of this op I considered asking the op to ask the mods to move the op to the Soteriology board but the op is not specifically about how folks get saved, nor is it specifically about who gets saved. It's about the exclusivity claim of Christianity.....

 

That claim to exclusivity was a comment made to yourself by the OP author and came at page five and post one. The comment was this:

 

So, almost every group believes that "only" members of their group will experience the afterlife in heaven.  Muslims think that they'll be the only ones, Christians think that they'll be the only ones, and even within Christianity certain sects or denominations think that they'll be the only ones.  So, what I'm trying to say is, what if we're all wrong.  What if God has a glorious plan that we don't fully understand.  I mean, what do we really know besides what we're told.  Sometimes we only see the surface not beneath the surface.  It's just difficult to think that all people who have lived otherwise righteous lives will be doomed for "everlasting" fire for a truth they haven't even learned.  How about unborn babies?  They are innocent and did not have the chance to hear the word of Jesus.  Aren't people who live in the jungles innocent like them in the sense that they can't be held accountable for something they've never learned.  I'll be honest, I don't know the answers to these questions.  Maybe we'll never know in this life.  I just believe there is more to it that we think.

 

Now that above comment is too broad to easily comment on - but one thing is for certain - it is connected to the opening comment and is the second comment the OP author had made on the OP. You yourself then replied to that page five comment one with a page five comment two post and the OP author then replied at page five comment three. As follows:

 

I agree with you that they all cannot be correct.  That is not logical.  There is universal truth.  I'm just saying within that universal truth, how do we truly know all that God has planned.  I don't really know.  Jesus is indeed the only way, but again, what if it's possible for people to be saved by his blood even if they don't realize it?  How about unborn babies who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus?  This is what I mean.  There are areas that I think we may not fully understand in this life. 

 

That page five comment three above is the last comment the OP author has made in this OP. You are asking me to believe from those three comments just one part of what the author has said. Namely, the exclusivity of Christianity -  the authors own words - "Muslims think that they'll be the only ones, Christians think that they'll be the only ones, and even within Christianity certain sects or denominations think that they'll be the only ones" - then they include that idea - but expressly gives their claim to an exclusivity a meaning. That meaning and the qualifying  causative meaning is "What if God has a glorious plan that we don't fully understand." 

 

The words and the ideas we express as Christians inevitably have a causative dial - because we are living spirits and if not that then we are a living soul. Even when we are living spirits being born from on High our souls can still be false. So the ambition is to separate the spirit from the soul even in believers so as to arrive at a living truth and in that meaning we cannot lie against the truth. That is a character of the prophetic ministry and indeed the very character of the Word of God. 

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

It's about the exclusivity claim of Christianity and it's about the (incorrect) perception this matter hasn't been decisively addressed in the previous 2000 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice or the previous tens of thousands of years God's revelation to humanity has existed. It's more about the nature of revelation than the who and how of salvation. 

 

I agree that the OP comment has been addressed very well over the last two thousand years but over [the] previous tens of thousands of years God's revelation to humanity has existed. It's more about the nature of revelation than the who and how of salvation. That claim itself directs the conversation to an abstract anthropological claim that I reject utterly. 

 

You also tell me that 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Discussing the comments in Ycf's post is going to get us all off-topic and further and further aware from the op.

 

The good news then must be that ycf won't be discussing anything with myself attending to his own claims because he knows that there is a pit of despond waiting at the end to it. So he graciously declines the offer. Shalom Josh

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling

[Waggles]

There is a first resurrection with a judgement. Who is this for? And what is its purpose?

After a thousand years of rule by Christ Jesus on Earth there will be a second resurrection and judgement. Who is this for? And what is its purpose?

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

If everybody caught up in the second resurrection are doomed to perdition then why have a judgement?

[Kelly2363]

38 minutes ago, Waggles said:

There is a first resurrection with a judgement. Who is this for? And what is its purpose?

After a thousand years of rule by Christ Jesus on Earth there will be a second resurrection and judgement. Who is this for? And what is its purpose?

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

If everybody caught up in the second resurrection are doomed to perdition then why have a judgement?

It has been said; eternal life is Christ in us and all those who believe in Christ. Eternity, on the other hand, will exist even for those who are in the lake of fire. Eternity and eternal life are synonymous yet different. Could we say that Satan who is to be in the lake of fire for eternity has eternal life? Or the false prophet, or the beast?

We know their end because it is already written - it is the lake of fire. First the false prophet and the beast (Revelation 19:20), and then lastly Satan (Revelation 20:7) according to the order of Scripture (Revelation 20:10). This order itself has to do with the coming kingdom. The false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire when the kingdom commences, which corresponds to the appearing of Christ. Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the kingdom comes to an end on this earth. Then comes the judgement of the Great White Throne. 

In this period of time which is measured by the return of the Lord Jesus and the Great White Throne, there is both the heavens and the earth, the kingdom and outer darkness; there is death, and there is hell! Hell and Death are synonymous, yet speak of two dominions and two keys (Revelation 1:18). The establishment of an understanding of the Millennial Kingdom and the corresponding outer darkness, are synonymous, yet speak of two dominions as well as keys.

The establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven is given to Christ (Revelation 1:18) whereas the keys of the power of the kingdom are given to the church (Matthew 16:19). Similarly, there is life, and there is abundant life. Eternal life, which is at once Christ in us, yet for those who reign with Christ also, for 1000 years, life becomes abundant life. Abundant life is expressed in the kingdom with Christ, as priests and kings over the nations. Life is the free gift of God to all who ask, believing that He is.

Abundant life is faithfulness in all that which we are given when we first believed (talents).

All men born of Adam die and all men born of Christ will live (1 Corinthians 15:22) Death is a reality, even for the one who has life in Christ and has Christ in them. As it is written, “It is appointed unto men to die once then cometh judgement.” (Hebrews 9:27). All will die yet not all will spend their eternity [be cast] in the lake of fire, because as it is written, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26). Hell already exists, and it was created for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:31). Today it is also the storehouse for tormented souls who are perishing or else are imprisoned (Luke 16:23-28). Outer darkness does not yet appear because it cannot be comprehended until the corresponding light of Christ in full visibility, appears also. Then as it is written, “we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is”. To have the life of Christ, yet to be cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness means to see Christ at His return, as those who have believed [stewards] yet to be rejected by Him from His kingdom.

So I answer your questions rather simply.

Being cast into outer darkness does not correspond to eternity. It corresponds to the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which is a measure of 1000 years (Revelation 20:2-7).

And in that meaning you should have your answer. Who is cast into outer darkness tells you who will be included in the second resurrection of the Great White Throne at the end of the Millennial Kingdom - commensurate with your point when you ask "If everybody caught up in the second resurrection are doomed to perdition then why have a judgement?

Or to state it differently - Who is cast into outer darkness tells you who will be included in the second resurrection of the Great White Throne at the end of the Millennial Kingdom commensurate with the distinction of who's names are written in the Book of Life but were not included in the bodily resurrection of the Great White Throne. Yet are nevertheless included in the judgement of the Second Resurrection. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kelly2363
Added last sentence.

[Waggles]

Well that is one opinion on the matter.

[Your closest friendnt]

@Kelly2363 we move forwards to question "b".

b) Does everyone who ever lived, he/she have the God given right to have his/her sins put under the blood of Jesus Christ? 

c) Does that include everyone who had died before the Cross of Jesus Christ?