The Need for a Future Millennium

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

Papyrus 115 (which is the [[[[[oldest preserved manuscript of the Revelation]]]]] as of ... of the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian, around A.D. 95 or 96"

Yeah? And they got the wrong ruler too. A mistake that has been handed down without further examination. Do some digging and you will find the mistake...

Edited November 9, 2021 by Justin Adams

[AandW_Rootbeer]

29 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Yeah? And they got the wrong ruler too. A mistake that has been handed down without further examination. Do some digging and you will find the mistake...

Evidently, you are not well aware of the chronicle timeline and factual Lineage.

 

It's a known Fact, that Titus, Father Ruled after Nero, then Titus himself Ruled, then his Younger Brother Domitian Ruled.

 

Titus was Involved in the 70 A.D. Destruction but [did not RULE ROME] until after the War.

 

Titus Rule:

Titus Caesar Vespasianus (/ˈtaɪtəs/ TY-təs; 30 December 39 – 13 September 81 AD) was Roman emperor from 79 to 81

 

We KNOW it is IMPOSSIBLE that Domitian Ruled (before His Father and Brother), so that puts his Rule at least beginning around 81 A.D. and No SOONER!

 

After the death of his brother, Domitian was declared emperor by the Praetorian Guard. His 15-year reign was the longest since that of Tiberius.

^

That tells us when Domitian took over for his brother, Titus, was around 81/82 A.D. and he RULED for 15 Years placing him around 96 A.D. when his Rule Ended and John would be Released!

 

 

There is no way getting around it unless you're creating a Lie?

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by AandW_Rootbeer

[Marathoner]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marathoner.

Please see my post to @Josheb above time-stamped as 11/7/2021 at 5:17 p.m.

Oh, and about a "personal attack," you were being "clever" with me; so, I was being "clever" with you. LAUGH! You'll feel better.

I wasn't trying to be "clever" with you, Retrobyter. I had responded to @Josheb's post, not yours. Got that? Good.  

Shifting the onus doesn't work. Insults are insults, regardless of the intention of the one who insults. 

Butting in to accuse someone else of being "unintelligible" is an example of crass and disrespectful behavior. Seeing as how you failed to address the substance of what I posted, resorting to (a thankfully brief) eisegetic narrative which defines your OP, perhaps you should pause to consider the ramifications of your position in this topic. 

You've been studiously avoiding answering questions asked of you which doesn't bode well for the case you've been struggling to make, my friend. You weren't insulting in this response and that's great. I hope the trend will continue.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by Marathoner
typo

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I don't, because I don't believe in "Heaven." The Greek word "ouranos" translated as "heaven" simply means the "sky." (Revelation 21:1.) And, while I don't believe in some ethereal place called "Heaven" somewhere beyond the blue, I most emphatically believe in the New Jerusalem, which is called "Ierousaleem epouranioo," "Jerusalem from-above-the-sky," weakly translated as the "heavenly Jerusalem!" (Hebrews 12:22.)

"Heaven" is never said to "come to earth." It is the NEW JERUSALEM that comes to earth! It comes "out of the heaven" or "out of the sky," which is another indicator, since the sky's molecules that we call "air" or "atmosphere" TOUCH the earth, that the New Jerusalem shall land. (Revelation 21:2.)

And, God REQUIRES such sacrifices in the Temple that shall be built, according to the prophecy that GOD HIMSELF gave to Y'chezk'el ("Ezekiel") in Ezekiel 40-44. He also requires those sacrifices in the same chapters. Don't be so dependent upon some eschatology that denies Scripture because of some theology which is built for you out of other verses that only SEEM to contradict the prophecy.

Hi Retro, 

If this is where the Spirit leads you and not the words, well.  Now you keep saying 'skies' like that is the only way to read it and I don't understand how the 'skies' has become the only way. Should the word HEAVEN not be in the words of God at all?  Is that what you are saying?  Do you believe that WE are making up 'a place' where God is dwelling and we should not be relating to such an idea? 

Do you believe there is a realm or place in which things like this are taking place?

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Do you believe 'the sky' speaking here is more truth to the Spirit of the word or true to the definition of the word?

Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.



21 times
◄ 7834. shachaq ►
Strong's Concordance
shachaq: dust, cloud
Original Word: שַׁחַק
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shachaq
Phonetic Spelling: (shakh'-ak)
Definition: dust, cloud
2Samuel 22:12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.
Psalm 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

421 TIMES 
8064 shamayim
Strong's Concordance
shamayim: heaven, sky
Original Word: שָׁמַיִם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shamayim
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mah'-yim)
Definition: heaven, sky

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


17 TIMES
 7549. raqia 
Strong's Concordance
raqia: an extended surface, expanse
Original Word: רָקִיעַ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: raqia
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-kee'-ah)
Definition: an extended surface, expanse

Ezekiel 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


54 TIMES
4791. marom 
Strong's Concordance
marom: height
Original Word: מָרוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: marom
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-rome')
Definition: height

 

Isaiah 33:5 The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness.

Isaiah 33:6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

 

Psalm 68:16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.

Psalm 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

Psalm 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

Deuteronomy 33:26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.

Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.


278 TIMES
3772. ouranos ►
Strong's Concordance
ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Definition: heaven
Usage: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

7 times
◄ 109. aér ►
Strong's Concordance
aér: air
Original Word: ἀήρ, ἀέρος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aér
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-ayr')
Definition: air
Usage: air, the lower air we breathe.


Maybe you could give me your thoughts on how all these work together or separately and what there is to be learned from them.  Also what the insistence 
of sky over heaven is.  And certainly if I have missed some.  

 

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE AS I DO

AND NOT THIS
'Don't be so dependent upon some eschatology that denies Scripture because of some theology which is built for you out of other verses that only SEEM to contradict the prophecy'.

 I ALSO DON'T believe as written above BECAUSE of this  THINGS CHANGE.  There are images of things to come...

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.  

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, AFTER HE HAD OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER SAT DOWN  on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED FOREVER  them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, AND HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HATH DONE DESPITE THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?  



 

What is MORE probable. 

That something has been missed  or is not yet known or understood so leading astray

or

That the work of the Saviour will be made as NOT?


d

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

No, that is not the "problem." My post has nothing to do with the dating of Revelation and everything to do with the claim of reading literally. No matter when it was written it states what it states and there are those who take it literally as written and those who do not. Among the latter group are those who claim to read it literally but don't and those who don't make such claims. That group of people should not claim to read scripture literally when they in fact do not. 

By this Explanation I agree with You 

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

That has nothing to do with my post. The earlier claim was that some of his stuff was heretical when in fact everything he said eschatologically is heretical - and it is heretical for the reasons I stated. 

Basically, You are stating that since Darby has "Several Wrong Interpretive points," even if he got the final Prophecy Correct, his entire outline and chain of Events are Wrong!

 

Agreed!

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

@Marathoner, @Retrobyter, Love you both but let's all regather the conversation and stay on topic. Have you ever noticed how many emoticons there are for conflict? 

 and my favorite,  

 

Probably missed a few

Proverbs 19:11 ESV
"Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense."

 

Thank you for sharing that with us. 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Don't know why the need to post that was felt because I have already addressed it. Yes, they could simply be two separately co-occurring views that are not causally related to each other. Already covered that possibility when I acknowledged you may have arrived at your views on your own apart from Darby and again whenever I have connected the other 19th century restorationists' apocalypses. Miller preceded Darby but Darby was not causally influenced by Miller. White was causally influenced by Miller, though. Darby preceded White but White was not causally influenced by Darby. Furthermore, I cited the Rose Publishing brochure and then you expanded on that content so be both know the eschatological views share common content without being causally related. 

Both our time is being wasted reposting content we both all already know. 

And it's a red herring because it is the specific kind of A and B that is of concern. 

Well, let's clear this up right now....

Thanks for posting that.

You've just contradicted yourself. 

Yep. 

Hi, Josheb.

We shall see.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVOKE OR ATTACK YOU, so relax.

Thank you.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

On one hand the claim is made not to believe in two paths of salvation but then content is posted that means two paths when taken to its logically necessary conclusions.

If that's the "logically necessary conclusion," it makes me wonder by what premises does one arrive at that conclusion. It's really quite simple; entry into Yeshua`s Kingdom is still based on accepting Yeshua` as the Messiah of God, which also requires Yeshua` to be the Son of God:

1 John 5:1 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus (Yeshua`) is the Christ (Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat (God the Father) loveth him also that is begotten of him (the Son of God, Yeshua`).

John 3:3 (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

And if I can get direct and timely answers to my questions when they are asked we'll be having a much different and more effective conversation. If it turns out this op does not fall into the same problems as modern futurism then I will gladly express my regrets for anything I posted about you or your eschatology that is incorrect and adjust my future posts to those facts.

Fair enough.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

But that is not currently the case no matter how strongly the belief to the contrary is felt. Do you want to better understand what may be very real concerns in the eschatology of these posts?

Well, in answer to this question, I don't believe I need to "better understand" it, since my op is based upon the Scriptures, but I would like to see how you interpret matters to think that I should need to "better understand" your "very real concerns." So, in that way, my answer to question #1 is "Sure."

But now, you must realize that the burden of proof has been shifted to your "concerns in the eschatology of these posts."

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

The best way to avoid getting put into molds is to answer the questions and prove any preconceptions I might have incorrect! I am basing everything I am posting on the contents of what I am reading. You say you're not a Darbyite. Great! That does not mean there aren't Darby-like inconsistencies in this eschatology. Not being a Darbyite does not mean there aren't flaws in this op. A and B . Inconsistencies and flaws can occur in both Miller, Darby and Retrobyter without being causally related . You know from basic set logic that if A and B have some elements in common but other elements are unique to A or B, then A and B are not the same set, right? They have common elements without being causally related. The common elements are problems in the inferential reading of scripture, the different soteriology, the different Christology, and perhaps other concerns we have yet to get to. And they are each serious problems whether they came from Darby or not.

I accept the challenge.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you believe the 144,000 Jews will be saved prior to Jesus coming to earth to set up his earthly kingdom?

That's actually a two-part question: 

2a. Do you believe the 144,000 Jews will be "saved" prior to Jesus coming to earth?

Well, first of all, we must establish WHEN the 144,000 children of Israel shall be "saved" or "justified by God."

Revelation 7:1-4 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying,

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I see this as literal, and I believe that the seal is the Holy Spirit of Promise:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)

13 In whom (the Messiah) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation (the good news of your rescue): in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This matches what Yeshua` promised in His prophecy called the "Olivet Discourse":

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ..."

So, my answer to 2a. is "No."

2b. Do you believe the 144,000 Jews will be "saved" prior to Jesus setting up His earthly kingdom?

Continuing on in the book of the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah, 

Revelation 11:15-18 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he (YHWH) shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty (YHWH), which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Since this follows chapter 7, then my answer to 2b. is "Yes."

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you believe Jesus coming to earth, reigning in his earthly kingdom will bring some to salvation?

Absolutely, yes! We read in Z'kharyahuw's prophecy:

Zechariah 12:1-14 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD (YHWH) for Israel,"

saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall be herniated), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day," 

saith the LORD (YHWH),

"I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart,

"'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:

"'and they shall look upon me (the Messiah) whom they have pierced,'

"and they shall mourn for him (the Messiah), as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

To me, this is obviously after the First General Resurrection. David's family and their wives are mourning for Him. Why? Because Yeshua` the Messiah is of the house of David! (See Luke 3:31.)

Natan's (Nathan's) family and their wives will be mourning for Him. Why? Because Yeshua` the Messiah is of the house of Natan! (See Luke 3:31.)

Leviy's (Levi's) family and their wives will be mourning for Him. Why? Because Yeshua` the Messiah is of the house of Leviy, not the head of the tribe of "Leviy" but within Yeshua`s lineage! (See Luke 3:29.)

The family of the Shimei and their wives will be mourning for Him. Why? Because Yeshua` the Messiah is of the family of the Shimei ("Semei")! (See Luke 3:26.)

In order for them to stand apart and mourn, they must be present to do so. Thus, they are already resurrected by this point.

The realization that He, the Messiah, the One who was pierced at His crucifixion, was not only who He claimed to be, but was/is a member of their own families, will JOLT them into a realization that they cannot ignore! MANY PEOPLE, both up the family tree of Israel and down into the various branches and leaves of the lineage, will recognize that He was and is not only an Israeliy, not only a Yhudiy ("Jew"), but will see that He was and is the Seed of David, and will MOURN what they, or their children, or their ancestors, did to the Messiah that day!

If those in His lineage had only one male heir, then they will mourn for Him as for their own son!

If those in His lineage had more than one son, then they will be in bitterness for Him as for their own firstborn son!

They will become FULLY AWARE that Yeshua` is the Messiah of God, the Son of God, in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

You are aware that in Romans 11 Paul was writing about conditions that existed in the first century at the time he was writing the book of Romans? Yes? 

 

 

That's four questions: 

Do you want to better understand how this op ends in a works-based salvation?

Do you believe the 144,000 Jews will be saved prior to Jesus coming to earth to set up his earthly kingdom?

Do you believe Jesus coming to earth, reigning in his earthly kingdom will bring some to salvation?

Do you understand Romans 11 was written about first century conditions?

I'll answer your fourth question down here:

Yes, Paul was writing about First Century conditions; however, they EXTEND into the future, for Paul starts this topic in chapter 9:

Romans 9:1-5 (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ (from the Messiah) for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites (children of Israel); to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers (the ancestors and Patriarchs), and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ (the Messiah) came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen (Hebrew for "Truth!").

Without getting into complicated waters, later he said,

Romans 9:30-33 (KJV)

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? (Why?) Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written,

"Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

Romans 10:1-4 (KJV)

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved (delivered; rescued). 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ (the Messiah) is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I'm skipping the rest of chapter 10 and the first part of chapter 11, but they also figure into Paul's reasoning. They're just not needed for the answer to this question (yet).

Then, Paul continues:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I (Paul) say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should fall (Greek: pesoosin = "they should fail")? God forbid: but rather through their fall  (Greek: too autoon paraptoomati = "the trespass of them") salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall (Greek: to paraptooma = "the trespass") of them be the riches of the world (Greek: ploutos kosmou = riches of-[the]-world"), and the diminishing of them (Greek: to heetteema autoon = "the loss/shortcoming of-them") the riches of the Gentiles (Greek: ploutos ethnoon = "riches of-nations"); how much more their fulness (Greek: to pleerooma autoon = the abundance of-them")? 

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save (deliver/rescue) some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (Greek: zooee ek nekroon = "life out of-dead-[ones]")? 

{This points to the future!}

16 For if the firstfruit (the wave offering) be holy, the lump (the rest of the harvest) is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (of an oleaster tree), wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well (Okay...); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear!: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:
on them which fell, severity;
but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off!

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob":

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

28 As concerning the gospel (the good news), they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 

{I.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling. God called Israel out from Egypt. That will never change. God gave them His gifts; that will never change, either!}

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Sorry this answer was a little long, but one must see the underlying theme of Romans 9 through 11, which extends His words into our time and beyond until the Messiah returns and raises the dead in the First General Resurrection.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I hope I can get succinct answers in the next post so there's no need to ask them again (and again, and again....). 

Let me extend a hand of gratitude to you, Roy. You've been enormously forbearing throughout the discussion of this op. There are almost 300 posts in this op and you're doing a marvelous job trading posts with a handful of posters who are resistant to this op in one way or another. Well done. We haven't even gotten to the matter of the thousand year reign versus the kingdom without end  (I haven't forgotten). As things stand it looks like more pages of posts can be expected so be encouraged, hang in there, and have patience with us and yourself. For that reason this op is an example to others, especially other posters. Big hug. Now back to work, there are four questions awaiting an answer .

I did my best to be suscinct without losing the body of proof for what I believe. Thanks for your indulgence.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

Isaiah 14. Jude 1. Revelation 20. 

Literally. 

He's bound AND roaming. That is what scripture literally states when all the various verses are taken together and not a single one of them literally says he is physically bound. Anywhere. Ever. 

And every single one of us should have our attention piqued anytime anyone makes claims about physical binding that aren't found in scripture. Every single one of us should end our eschatology to what is stated if we claim to read these things literally. 

Either that or stop claiming to read it literally. 

Satan is not mentioned in Isaiah 14. 

[Justin Adams]

12 hours ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

There is no way getting around it unless you're creating a Lie?

Robert Young, Young's Analytical Concordance concerning the date of Revelation:

“It was written in Patmos about A.D. 68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syria version of the book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D. 175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou – i.e., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the early date.”

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/28131/was-the-book-of-john-written-first-or-the-book-of-revelation