The Need for a Future Millennium

[DeighAnn]

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by DeighAnn

[Retrobyter]

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

One should also not split hairs where there are no hairs to split. The fact remains you claimed Jesus had been anointed king over Israel and used to texts to support that view but neither text says anything of the sort. God promised David a descendant whose reign would never end; and that descendant is Jesus, but Jesus' kingdom is not of this world! 

Hi, Josheb.

Ah, but His Kingdom shall be of this earth. Actually, I claim that Yeshua` had been anointed TO BE King over Israel. That's a bit of a difference. His anointing by God - His selection by God - was done at His baptism when the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) descended upon Him, anointing Him to be King. However, His actual inauguration as King has not happened, yet. I believe this is also true of His future reign over His own tribe, Yhudah. He should have been so accepted IMMEDIATELY when He rode into Yerushalayim upon the donkey, but the elders of Yhudah and the religious elite would not have it! They were poor stewards of the nation. They rejected Him as their King and managed to convince others to say the same thing, leading them into a call to "Crucify Him!" And, of course, haSatan was behind the whole thing, unaware that Yeshua`s death, burial, and resurrection would permanently seal his fate!

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

God kept his promise, but He did not do what modern-futurists say He should do. I can actually point to scripture that plainly states what I have posted. You have to play games with the text to make it say things it does not actually state. David (and Israel) got their king. He was hung on a cross for them. They rejected him, killed, hm and in so doing broke their covenant with God. God kept His portion; Israel killed it. 

Literally. 

I was reading ahead, and almost agreed when you said, "That is true but it is a half-truth," because that's exactly true about what you just claimed. What you just said is true, but it, too, is a half-truth! I point you (again) to Matthew 23:37-39, that Yeshua` said that He was leaving them desolate (just as the man Gavri'eel predicted to Daniel in Daniel 9:27), and they would not see Him again UNTIL - note that, please - UNTIL they would welcome Him back as the Comer with the authority of YHWH. Gavri'eel's words were ...

Daniel 9:27 (KJV with commentary)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm (strengthen) the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (of years): and in the midst of the week (at 3.5 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (the veil in the Temple was torn at His death by God), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) he shall make it desolate (Matthew 23:38), even until the consummation (Matthew 23:39), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (and they, the desolate, are STILL suffering for their sin in His rejection).

Yeshua`s words were (I'll skip the overspreading of abominations He revealed about the Pharisees and scribes) ...

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

And, He quoted from Psalm 118:26 in that last clause:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew "Hoshiy`aah naa'" = Greek "Hosanna"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH"): we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

And, as I've said before, the phrase "Baruwkh haba'" in the plural form "Baruwkhiym haba'iym" is a welcome sign at all the airports and seaports in Israel!

which is why I said, "UNTIL they would welcome Him back as the Comer with the authority of YHWH." The bottom line is this: It ain't over, yet!

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

That is true but it is a half-truth. The word kosmos is not limited to politics. Neither is it limited to Rome or Roman rule. Israel's monarchy was worldly! God made is abundantly clear He did not want Israel to have a king like the other nations. The monarchy was disobedience. Saul, David, Solomon and all the rest of them were signs of disobedience, constant reminders of Israel's rejection of God as their king. Modern futurism Judaizes God's kingship and says it HAS to be earthly AND of this world - the world the Jews demanded from God in disobedience, the worldly king like all the other nations. 

That is NOT what God promised. 

God brought His kingdom to earth. (Exodus 15:18)
He gave them a king. (1 Samuel 13:14; 16:12-13)
The king and the kingdom persist. 

Okay, I can agree with you on all these points, except that "Modern futurism Judaizes God's Kingship and says it HAS to be earthly AND of this world." Stop before the "AND." Consider the Song of Moses:

Exodus 15:1-19 (KJV)

1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying,

"I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD (YHWH) is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.'
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed (shocked); the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them (they'll succumb to trembling); all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt (slink) away.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone (they'll be petrified); till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.
18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea."

God picked the second king, as one after God's own heart:

1 Samuel 13:8-14

8 And he (Saul) tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. 9 And Saul said,

"Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings."

And he offered the burnt offering.

10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him. 11 And Samuel said,

"What hast thou done?!"

And Saul said,

"Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; 12 Therefore said I, 'The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD!': I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering."

13 And Samuel said to Saul,

"Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. 14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee."

1 Samuel 16:1-13 (KJV)

1 And the LORD said unto Samuel,

"How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons."

2 And Samuel said,

"How can I go? If Saul hear it, he will kill me!"

And the LORD said,

"Take an heifer with thee, and say, 'I am come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee."

4 And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said,

"Comest thou peaceably?"

5 And he said,

"Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice."

And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.

6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said,

"Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him."

7 But the LORD said unto Samuel,

"Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seethnot as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

8 Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said,

"Neither hath the LORD chosen this."

9 Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said,

"Neither hath the LORD chosen this."

10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"The LORD hath not chosen these."

11 And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"Are here all thy children?"

And he said,

"There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep."

And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither."

12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy (red), and withal of a beautiful countenance (handsome face), and goodly to look to. And the LORD said,

"Arise, anoint him: for this is he."

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Then, David went to work for Saul, playing the harp for him during his bouts with the evil spirit from YHWH. When Golyat (Goliath) challenged the armies of YHWH, David stepped up to bat and defeated Golyat, which dismayed the enemies and encouraged the children of Israel. Later, Saul turned on David and chased him for years, trying to kill him to secure the throne for His own son, Yhownatan ("Jonathan"), (who was David's best friend, btw). Finally, Saul, no longer getting any word about what to do from YHWH, turned to a medium with a familiar spirit to "call up Samuel." He was told that he would die soon, and he did, as did his son Jonathan.

The tribe of Yhudah made David their king in Hebron, and for 7 years, He was the king of the Jews. Then, finally after circumstances settled down, all Israel came to him to anoint him the king of all Israel. However, in all the time (40 years total) that he reigned, he always acknowledged that YHWH God was the real King!

Yes, he sinned significantly with Bat-Sheva (Bathsheba) and killed her husband with a battle strategy meant to kill him, but when confronted with his sins, he didn't shrink from his guilt but cried out to God for forgiveness and His mercy. It didn't change the consequences for his sins, but God never took His Spirit from him, and David, through the songs He wrote, was a prophet for God.

We've talked about Peter's "sermon" in Acts 2, but there was also Paul's speech in Acts 13:

Acts 13:13-43 (KJV)

13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. 14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, 

"Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on."

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said,

"Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said,

"'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.' 

23 "Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 "Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation ("Yeeshua`") sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41"'Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.'"

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

It's not until Revelation 11, the seventh trumpet (shofar), the last shofar, that we read,

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (to the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

Israel remains is disobedient rejection of God. 

Again: I can actually point to scriptures that actually state what I have posted. I don't have to "interpret" any of them. I can stand firmly on those texts exactly as they are written without having to make stuff up. 

Again: you made a claim and you cited to texts and neither text actually states what you say they say. 

Just give a plain reading of the text a chance. Notice that neither text uses the word "king" (Hebrew or Greek), but instead speak of a kingdom. Neither text actually mentions Israel. Just stand on what is written and not what oyu'd like to read into the text. 

What is a Kingdom without a King?! 

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

First, the salient point is that the kingdom came. You've just acknowledged it. Now there's an internal contradiction in this op. The kingdom hasn't come but it came. Jesus hasn't ruled in Israel but he came with the kingdom of God. These are self-contradictory statements. 

Not at all when one considers the TIME ELEMENT involved! Yeshua` offered the Kingdom to Israel and it was a legitimate offer; however, it was rejected when they rejected HIM! He took it back and left this earth after His resurrection! The disciples asked, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6.) He didn't say yes, and He didn't say no. He said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." (Acts 1:7.) We have a job to do, and that is to make disciples of all: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8.) Essentially, we are to make subjects FOR His Kingdom when He returns as King. (Luke 19:15; Matthew 25:31.)

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

Second, Jesus was not "King-apparent." Jesus was king and he was king of Israel, and he was king of Israel before Calvary (Jn. 1:49, 12:13; Mt. 2:2; Mk. 15:2).

You should have some respect. 

I have all the respect for Him, but HE said He was not now King! He laid no claim to that title! He only called Himself a King in His parables/prophecies of the future! He was the MESSIAH!!! And "King-apparent" is what that means before His coronation!

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

If I can show you three texts reporting Jesus to be king of Israel or the Jews prior to Calvary will you surrender the point, recant, and change your pov to be consistent with the scriptures I posts? 

Matthew 2:1-2
 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,  "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 27:11
 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." 

Mark 15:2
 Pilate questioned Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And He *answered him, "It is as you say."

John 18:33-37
 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?"  Jesus answered, "Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?"  Pilate answered, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?"  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." 

John 19:21
 So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews'; but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews.'"

John 1:48-51
 Nathanael *said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."  Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."  Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these."  And He *said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." 

John 12:12-13
 On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD, even the King of Israel." 

NONE of these actually call Him the King of Israel! They all say He is ENTITLED to be the King of Israel, but at NO TIME during His offer of the Kingdom to Israel did they actually accept Him as their King nor did He begin His reign!

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

Not an answer to my question. 

It's only an answer if you can do it.

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Josheb said:

How can anyone claim to know something from scripture when the scriptures upon which that knowledge is based don't actually say what is claimed to be known? 

Well, that's YOUR opinion. I don't find that you are reading the Scriptures correctly, even if you THINK they "don't actually say what is claimed to be known." That's why I say, "DIG DEEPER!"

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

"On" the earth, or "of" the earth?

Hi, Josheb.

Yeah, "ON" the earth. Typo.

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

His kingdom was on the earth in the first century.

BRIEFLY! The Kingdom didn't stay on the earth because the King didn't stay on the earth! There is no Kingdom without the King! That should be clear. That's why it developed into calling it an "ekkleesia kuriokon!" a "gathering of the Lord," and not "the Kingdom," despite Rome's efforts to change that. The Kingdom will be a literal, physical realm over which a physical, human (super-human) King, Yeshua` haMashiyach v'haMelekh (the Anointed [of God] and the King), will preside and reign. 

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

I believe I have posted the scriptures to this effect more than once. Two-kingdoms modern futurists are looking for things from the Old Testament the New Testament tells us have already occurred. The only way this kind of two kingdoms modern futurism can be attained and sustained is by emphasizing the Old over the New under the guise of a literal reading that ignores how the NT writers treated the OT prophesies. 

Not true. The only way one can think of this as "two kingdoms" is if one suggests that one of these "kingdoms" is in that ethereal, false place called "Heaven."

Look. God's dealings with human beings are here on this earth. He created the earth for mankind, and He created the Man (Adam) to live on this earth. (Genesis 1, 2)

He worked with Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV (Yisra'eel) to form a nation over whom He Himself would reign, and through that nation, God would bless all the nations of the earth. (Genesis 12:1-3; Genesis 22:15-19; Exodus 15:1-19; Exodus 19:1-6; Deuteronomy 14:1-2.)

In the future, the New Jerusalem comes down out of the sky to the New Earth, and mankind, those who love God, will live upon that New Earth. It will be a larger and more beautiful reflection of the original Creation, larger and more beautiful than the original Creation!

In the middle of all this, God chose to use a man as a VISIBLE, HUMAN King, through which human beings could see a more tangible representation of YHWH God. God is spirit! Indeed, being thrice holy, He is the HOLY Spirit! Kadowsh! Kadowsh! Kadowsh!

David did a fair job, but Yeshua` will be the ULTIMATE Messiah of God; He will do the BEST job at being YHWH God's human representation to human beings who need a tangible representation of YHWH God. This will be done when Yeshua` returns, and He shall be King of humanity for a thousand years, and beyond, to the children of Israel forever!

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

Matthew 3:2
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 12:28
"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Matthew 13:11
"Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted."

 

According to Acts 1:3 Jesus spent forty days speaking about the kingdom of God and then not once is a single one of them ever reported to teach what this op teaches. 

Regarding Matthew 3:2,

The phrase, "is at hand," is the Greek word "eeggiken" the perfect, indicative, active form of "eggizoo," meaning "I bring near" or "I come near," for the third-person singular, referring to hee basileia toon ouranoon, translated as "the kingdom of the skies." While most "agree" that the phrase "toon ouranoon" is in the genitive case, showing possession, I believe it is actually in the ablative case, showing origin. The two look exactly the same in Koine Greek (8 cases), and they ARE exactly the same in Classical Greek (5 cases)! Thus, "from the skies" is a good translation. The whole phrase then is "has come near the kingdom from the skies," or in English word order (N-V), "the kingdom from the skies has come near." It doesn't mean "it's here to stay!" Yochanan (John) was telling them to reach out and TAKE IT! ACCEPT IT! "Repent! (Change your minds!) for the kingdom from the skies has come near!" And, as usual, one should see this in context:

Matthew 3:1-12 (KJV)

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying,

"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying,

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness,

"'Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.'"

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them,

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, 'We have Abraham to our father': for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham! 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize (all of) you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan (winnowing fork) is in his hand, and he will throughly purge (burn off) his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire!" [I.e., be the wheat, not the chaff!]

Matthew 12:28 is much the same. It's not necessarily a permanent coming. Here's the context:

Matthew 12:22-37 (KJV)

22 Then was brought unto him (Yeshua`) one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said,

"Is not this the son of David?" [i.e., the heir of David.]

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said,

"This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub (Lord of Flies) the prince of the devils."

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them,

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 BUT if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 "He that is not with me (Pharisees) is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, 'All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.' 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost (of YHWH GOD), it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age), neither in the world (age) to come.

33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, (Pharisees,) That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

One can easily see which way the Pharisees chose to go!

Regarding Matthew 13:11, Yeshua` was talking to His disciples, those who believed that He was indeed the Messiah of God sent to be the King; however, the people, particularly the Pharisees and the ones whom they led, were the ones blinded to the secrets of God's Kingdom:

Matthew 13:10-17 (KJV)

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him,

"Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them,

"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries (secrets) of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,

"'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.'

16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, 'That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.'"

The prophets were told about the coming of the Messiah and the miracles He would perform, and they were hoping they would get to see it in their lifetimes, but unfortunately, they died before they could see it come to pass. One of those prophets was the prophetess Anna (Hannah) in the Temple, when Yeshua` was brought in after being circumcised, when His mother had been purified (40 days for a male child), to be presented to YHWH and for sacrifices (two turtledoves, a poor person's sacrifice) to be offered.

The righteous men, too, who read the prophecies, hoped the same thing! One of those men was Simeon (Shim`own) in the Temple at Yeshua`s presentation to YHWH.

However, probably neither of them lived long enough to hear His teachings.

 

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

If all we had were the Old Testament we might view the future as the Jews did, as most two-kingdoms modern-futurists do, but the fact is we do have the New Testament and the Spirit-inspired and indwelt Jews of the first century that had been converted to the Messiah, Jesus the anointed one of God, did not treat these Old Testament prophets as modern futurists do. They maintained a continuity between Old and New but it was often one in which the OT prophesies were NOT read or treated literally. 

Really? There was NO "New" when Yeshua` offered the Kingdom to the children of Israel! Yeshua` the Messiah fulfilled the prophecies about Himself! He said as much:

Matthew 5:17-19 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (the Hebrew letter yod) or one tittle (the "thorn" or seraf of a Hebrew letter, like the difference between the Hebrew letters dalet and reish) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.' 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (like honoring the sabbath day, for instance), and shall teach men so (to do likewise), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

The Holy Spirit told them to treat these prophets non-literally! The Holy Spirit revealed the truth of the prophesies and told them to tell their audience the truth of the prophesies that had been veiled and hidden from the hardened Jews. 

That's sheer nonsense. Why would the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym encourage anyone not to take what He had written through His prophets LITERALLY?! He had it written EXACTLY as He wanted it written!

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

• A kingdom was prophesied. 
• That kingdom came.

• That kingdom left (when the King left).

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

• It was on the earth but not of the world.

Again, briefly. It's not here now.

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

• It is something that was, is, and will be; a kingdom that is within but also entered into. 

Nonsense. The kingdom was not "within" the Pharisees, to whom Yeshua` was speaking; it was "among" the Pharisees! And, it was "among" them because the KING-TO-BE was "among" them at that time! When He left in the ascension, it was no longer "among" them!

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

• It did not look like what the Jews anticipated.

That's because it hadn't been realized, yet!

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

• It does not look like what the two-kingdoms modern-futurists look for, either. 

It's not scripture for which the two-kingdoms modern-futurist looks forward to being fulfilled; it is their interpretation of the scriptures to which they look forward. We've seen 46 pages of it here.

We've seen 46 pages here because of the stubbornness and rebellion to listen to the reason of the Scriptures! One must listen to YHWH God's heart before one can hope to understand the "simple reading of God's Word." YHWH God loves His children, the children of Israel, who were His children LONG before "Christians" came along! Sure, they were rebellious children, but does that make them any less His children? One should be careful how he or she responds to that question, because "Christians" are just as much God's children as the children of Israel are. IF (a very big IF, btw) God could turn His back on the rebellious children of Israel, then what makes one think He couldn't turn His back on rebellious "Christians?"

[Retrobyter]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

Show me the scripture. After 46 pages of posts it's time for you to stop making baseless claims and show some plainly stated scriptures supporting this invented view because, 

Hi, Josheb.

You said the above in response to my statement,

"BRIEFLY! The Kingdom didn't stay on the earth because the King didn't stay on the earth!"

How much plainer can I make it? Yeshua` the Messiah of God, Anointed to be the King of Israel, was not anointed by the children of Israel, even His own house, the Jews, to be their King! And after His resurrection, He went away!

Acts 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 The former treatise (Luke) have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but ...

"wait for the promise of the Father, which,"

saith he,

"ye have heard of me. 5 For John (Yochanan the Submerger) truly baptized with (immersed in) water; but ye shall be baptized with (immersed in) the Holy Ghost not many days hence (from now)."

[The word "en" meaning "in" is actually used with "Pneumati Hagioo" (translated as "the Holy Ghost") in the Greek text; this implies that the correct case of "hudati" (translated "with water") should be the locative case, "in water" by comparison.]

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord (Master), wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" [Note: It hadn't started yet!] 

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (That is, it's in the Father's timing, and that's all you need to know.) 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld (watched), he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight (a literal cloud "nefelee" obscured their view). 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky") as he went up, behold, two men (Greek: andres duo) stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = 'into the sky')? this same Jesus (Yeshua`, haMashiyach Elohiym, the Messiah of God, the Anointed to be the King of Israel), which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = 'into the sky'), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = 'into the sky')."

Sometimes, as one reads along, one must also remind himself or herself what the various words and names mean. That's why I included what I did.

It was like watching the launching of a rocket from Cape Canaveral. You can watch it go up for several minutes, constantly going up and getting smaller and smaller to view. Soon, one is straining one's eyes to catch a glimpse of it, and if a cloud gets in the way, one tries to find it again after the cloud has passed. I feel I can guarantee that no one had ever seen such a thing before! The two men in white clothes had to snap them out of it!

Yeshua` the Messiah of God, Anointed to be the King of Israel, who was not anointed by the children of Israel, even His own house, the Jews, to be their King, had said to the Jews of Jerusalem,

Matthew 23:38-39 (KJV)

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD.'"

The sentence "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say (condition)," or "Ye shall not see me from now on, until ye shall say (condition)," implies that there shall be a time when "ye shall see me," when the (condition) is said.

Yeshua` the Messiah of God, Anointed to be the King of Israel, who was not anointed by the children of Israel, even His own house, the Jews, to be their King, had said to His disciples,

John 14:1-4 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me (trust me!). 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am (back again, on earth), there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Later, he said,

John 14:16-20 (KJV)

16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more (they'll die and turn to dust); but ye see me: because I live (Greek: egoo zoo, meaning "I am-alive," a present, indicative, active state, implying that 'I will have been resurrected' based upon when the statement was made), ye shall live (Greek: zeesete, the future, indicative, active form of zaoo meaning 'I am alive,' means 'you shall be alive') also (i.e., you shall be resurrected, too). 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

Paul said, 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God (the Father) bring with him (with Jesus). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now, I know that pretribulational rapturists have a particular view of these verses, but I understand them to be events that happen at the Second Coming itself. The important point is that the Messiah Yeshua shall return and with Him, all those who are at that time currently dead in the Messiah, raising them to life, and transforming those who are alive at the time in the Messiah. Being a part of the Second Coming, we also need to see the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:1-31 (KJV)

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them,

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (1-70 A.D.)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ (2-the Messiah)';

"and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled (3-1st Century): for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (4-Beyond 1st Century)

7 "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (5-1st Century and beyond)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (6-1st Century) 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (7-1st Century and beyond) 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (8-Beyond 1st Century)

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (9-66 A.D.), (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day (10-66-70 A.D.): 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened (11-1st Century and beyond).

23 "Then if any man shall say unto you,

"'Lo, here is Christ!',

"or

"'there [He is]!';

"believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (12-1st Century and beyond). 25 Behold, I have told you before[hand].

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you,

"'Behold, he is in the desert!';

"go not forth:

"'behold, he is in the secret chambers!';

"believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (a glimpse to the return.). 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together (1st Century).

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (This happens at the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`.)

Mark 13:1-27 (KJV)

1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him,

"Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

2 And Jesus answering said unto him,

"Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down!" (70 A.D.)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 

4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

5 And Jesus answering them began to say,

"Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6 For many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ (the Messiah)';

"and shall deceive many. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled (1st Century): for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet (Beyond 1st Century). 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. (1st Century and beyond)

9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (1st Century) 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (Beyond 1st Century)

11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (1st Century) 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (1st Century and beyond) 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Beyond 1st Century)

14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (66 A.D.) (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. (66-70 A.D.) 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (1st Century and beyond)

21 "And then if any man shall say to you,

"'Lo, here is Christ!';

"or,

"'lo, he is there!';

"believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (1st Century and beyond) 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (This happens at the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`.)

Luke 21:5-28 (KJV)

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 

6 "As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (70 A.D.)

7 And they asked him, saying,

"Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

8 And he said,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ (the Messiah); and the time draweth near!':

"go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified (1st Century): for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by (immediate)." (Beyond 1st Century)

10 Then said he unto them,

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (1st Century and beyond)

12 "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. (1st Century) 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. (1st Century) 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. (1st Century and beyond) 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. (1st Century and beyond).

20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (66 A.D.) 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (66-70 A.D.) 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (1st Century and beyond)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." (This happens at the Second Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`.)

Finally, Revelation 11 talks about the return of the Messiah, the Son of God, to reign with God, the Father of the Messiah, at the seventh trumpet blast, which is a subset under the seventh seal:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH God), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever!" 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And 'the nations were angry,' (Psalm 2:1-3) and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And, one should realize that this instance, which is NOT a figurative passage, follows Revelation 6:12-17, the opening of the sixth seal, which is exactly what Yeshua` was talking about in the Olivet Discourse:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I (Yochanan or John) beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

And, how will these kings of the earth, etc., be able to see the face of Him who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb, if the Lamb is not back here on this earth?! And, along the same lines, how can YHWH God and His Son, the Lamb, rule over the kingdoms of the world, having become His kingdom, if not from this earth, which was His goal all along, according to the prophecies of the Messiah in the TANAKH (the Torah [Instruction or "Law"], the Navi'iym [Prophets], and Ketuviym [other Writings], the Old Testament)?!

I've tried to keep these verses from the New Testament, for your sake, but this is HARDLY all there is, when one includes the literal interpretation of the OT prophecies, as well. Don't forget the conclusion of the vision that God gave Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2. Furthermore, there are passages in the New Testament I didn't mention that add to this viewpoint, such as 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and 2 Peter 3:3-13. None of these  passages should stand alone because they work together to produce the correct view on the end times. And, that's what is meant by,

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NIV)

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

I have provided a plethora of scripture proving otherwise; scripture that was quoted and applied as stated, read as written, not embellished in any way shape or form. 

Yes, it should be clear Jesus was, is, and always will be the King Eternal. It's not me who is being inconsistent with that truth and all the scriptures testifying to that fact. 

I've just provided another "plethora of scripture," as well. IF you'll take the time to read them, as I do yours. Please note that I've kept most of them in the New Testament, to show that they come from Yeshua` and His disciples.

First, understand this, please: "Eternity" is "Infinity" with relation to time. And, in mathematics, as the foundation of the Cartesian graphing methods we use to visualize relationships, time is often represented on an x-axis, pointing off to the right, from the origin on the graph.

"Infinite lines" are discovered in two forms:

A full line, with arrow heads off to the left and to the right, is considered infinite in length, which represents "infinite time" or "eternity," when the graph's x-axis is so labeled (for example, "<-----0-----> t" for "time").

HOWEVER, there is also a half-line, with an arrow head only in one direction, most frequently to the right ("0-----> t"), because time only flows forward. These half-lines, although having a starting point on the line, are also considered infinite in length, representing "infinite time" or "eternity," but only toward the FUTURE. 

God the Father is an infinite full line, when it comes to time; that is, HE "was, is, and always will be the King Eternal." Yeshua`, on the other hand, has a beginning point at His conception. The Scriptures say,

John 1:1-3, 14 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
.....

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gavri'eel told Miryam in Luke 1,

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!"

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God! 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible."

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

Thus, the human being, conceived and born of a woman, was fundamentally DIFFERENT THAN the Word before He became flesh! "Yeshua` the Messiah" is different than "God the Word." HE BECAME FLESH; He didn't just "put on flesh," which is what theologians say and the word "incarnation" implies! He didn't just "come in flesh," like it was some sort of suit He put on! He actually BECAME flesh!

And, just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:45a,

45 And so it is written, "The (first) man (Adam) was made a living soul" (quoted from Genesis 2:7);...

a "soul" meaning an "air-breathing creature," Yeshua` the Messiah of God was also made a "living, air-breathing creature," when He was conceived and grew into a baby that was born into the air and began breathing on His own! Then, when He was circumcised the eighth day and was officially named, they called Him "Yeeshuwa`," which means "He shall save" or "He shall deliver" or "He shall rescue."

When He died, He as an air-breathing body ceased to be "air-breathing," and He was no longer a "soul." When God resurrected Him three days later, He was not only an air-breathing body again, He was more!

45b ... the last Adam (Yeshua`) was made a quickening spirit.

He now was a "life-giving WIND," as well, able to breathe life into an individual! 

However, His "eternity" now is a HALF-line! He had a beginning. "The Word was made flesh" and "Miryam conceived in her womb," and at least at His resurrection, "this day have I (God the Father) begotten Thee!"

We also read,

Hebrews 13:8 (KJV)

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

In Greek, this is ...

8 Ieesous Christos echthes kai seemeron ho autos kai eis tous aioonas.

Literally, "Yeshua` Messiah yesterday and today [is] the same-one and into the ages." The author of Hebrews was implying that Yeshua` yesterday (during His lifetime) and today (after the Resurrection) will also be the One into the ages!

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

Is the existence of the kingdom of heaven being disputed? Do I need to post all the many, many scriptures plainly confirming the existence of the kingdom of heaven? 

No, the problem is, as I see it, a misunderstanding of the phrase "kingdom of heaven." This all comes down to whether "ouranou" is the genitive case showing ownership, translated with an "of" or "belonging to," or if "ouranou" is the ablative case, showing origin, translated with a "from." I believe that context time and time again shows it to be the latter. Furthermore, using Yeshua`s usage of the word in Matthew 16:1-4, the words "ho ouranos" mean "the sky." Thus, it is the "Kingdom FROM the sky," not a "kingdom that belongs to (or belongs in) some mystical place called 'Heaven.'"

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck. What is it is is a king like the other nations and God explicitly stated He did not want Israel to have a king like the other nations, it was a blatant sign of disobedience, and a rejection of Him as their King. They already had a King!!!!!  God did not stop being their king just because He wasn't on earth. Neither did He stop being their king because they had an earthly king. God was, is, and always will be King. There is no "but."

Actually, YHWH God DOES use human men as representatives between Himself and the human population. First, He used Mosheh ("Moses") and Aharown ("Aaron") to act as His mouthpiece to communicate His wishes with the children of Israel. Then, He used Yhowshuwa` ("Joshua"), then all the judges from `Aatniy'eel ("Othniel") to Shmu'eel ("Samuel") as captains of His armies to reconquer His Land for 430 years. (Tell me again, how long has the United States of America been in existence?)

That's who the king David was. He was God's mouthpiece to the children of Israel during his reign and he was the captain of the LORD'S armies, and David haMelekh always recognizing who the TRUE haMelekh Yisrael, the King of Israel, was!

Yeshua`, the HEIR of David, will continue David's "tradition," recognizing YHWH God His Father as the TRUE King of Israel, and after a thousand years of subduing His enemies, He will recognize Him as the TRUE King of the WORLD, subjecting Himself to His Father also! (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

And by appealing to Moses instead of Jesus or Paul you have just Judaized Christianity. You just protested any claim of Judaization and then Judaized. 

That's YOUR opinion because you do not understand how the OT fits into the New. You claim "Judaizing! Judaizing!" and misuse the term IMMENSELY!

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

What does the NEW TESTAMENT say? 

That's why I gave you NT verses above, since that's all you seem to accept.

On 12/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, Josheb said:

And, Roy, the word "near" means near. 

Sure it does, but the Kingdom is not "near" anymore; it's "far above," now.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Retrobyter
to finish a reference

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Logically speaking, your position would make the kingdom of Christ a very temporal, spatial, and finite condition. 

But isn't that the topic?  The DAY  -  it has a most definite beginning, a definite amount of time and a definite ending.  If this were about the OVERALL status of God as EVERYTHING always then what you are saying would be correct.  BUT THE DAY of the LORD is FINITE.  AGAIN, That doesn't take away from overall picture.  

A day is as a thousand years.  TIME in the overall scheme of things doesn't exist either but as written in the words of God it does.  We know a life time went from 1000 years to 120 or so, so we know it is relevant to earth.  YOU two are arguing apples and oranges.  Over all verses finite.  

The kingdom was at hand.  The kingdom was at hand on earth with JESUS TO BE the KING.  Instead He was killed.  WHAT TOOK place in heaven after that didn't BRING CHRIST BACK IN THE FLESH to set up the earthly kingdom.  DOESN'T make him not a part of God, just not ruler of all the kingdoms on earth.  How do we know?  Cause EVIL is running rampant and that has nothing to do with GODS LAWS being imposed with a rod of IRON.  The what is to take place during the millennium  is clearly spoken of.  EVEN IF YOU believe it is a 'SPIRITUAL' time and not a physical reality, you must admit what is happening on earth doesn't resemble it in any way shape or form it isn't even close to the picture given us of the rule of Jesus on earth.  

 I have not read the previous pages so don't know if you tried to discuss this or not,  but I do it didn't work.  One is speaking of Gods FINITE earthy plan the other is discussing the OVERALL state of GOD in power.  The two wont be meeting until the New Heaven and New Earth come into play (WHICH in a certain sense HAS ALWAYS BEEN but that doesn't help pin point what those on earth will be facing for the EARTH TIME it will be happening)  Was that truly never noticed?  Never thought HUM, I wonder if this is about a SPECIFIC time of events written of for earthlings and not a discussion on OVERALL?  I really would like to know if that is true or not, if you wouldn't mind sharing.  Then again, what you believe doesn't matter to the discussion,  am I correct in that was your reply to me once?  If so just skip it,  no ill intent.  Maybe amill make Lords Day go away and so it can't be discussed on any level, IDK.  Maybe I will go back and read it all and see what happened...but like you said so many pages and not even close to speaking about the same subject....d

 

[Alive]

Make it about the posts and topic and not the posters.

Rules for all and all for rules.

[David1701]

On 12/4/2021 at 6:08 AM, Retrobyter said:

Hi, Josheb.

Yeah, "ON" the earth. Typo.

BRIEFLY! The Kingdom didn't stay on the earth because the King didn't stay on the earth! There is no Kingdom without the King! That should be clear. That's why it developed into calling it an "ekkleesia kuriokon!" a "gathering of the Lord," and not "the Kingdom," despite Rome's efforts to change that. The Kingdom will be a literal, physical realm over which a physical, human (super-human) King, Yeshua` haMashiyach v'haMelekh (the Anointed [of God] and the King), will preside and reign. 

Not true. The only way one can think of this as "two kingdoms" is if one suggests that one of these "kingdoms" is in that ethereal, false place called "Heaven."

Look. God's dealings with human beings are here on this earth. He created the earth for mankind, and He created the Man (Adam) to live on this earth. (Genesis 1, 2)

He worked with Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV (Yisra'eel) to form a nation over whom He Himself would reign, and through that nation, God would bless all the nations of the earth. (Genesis 12:1-3; Genesis 22:15-19; Exodus 15:1-19; Exodus 19:1-6; Deuteronomy 14:1-2.)

In the future, the New Jerusalem comes down out of the sky to the New Earth, and mankind, those who love God, will live upon that New Earth. It will be a larger and more beautiful reflection of the original Creation, larger and more beautiful than the original Creation!

In the middle of all this, God chose to use a man as a VISIBLE, HUMAN King, through which human beings could see a more tangible representation of YHWH God. God is spirit! Indeed, being thrice holy, He is the HOLY Spirit! Kadowsh! Kadowsh! Kadowsh!

David did a fair job, but Yeshua` will be the ULTIMATE Messiah of God; He will do the BEST job at being YHWH God's human representation to human beings who need a tangible representation of YHWH God. This will be done when Yeshua` returns, and He shall be King of humanity for a thousand years, and beyond, to the children of Israel forever!

Regarding Matthew 3:2,

The phrase, "is at hand," is the Greek word "eeggiken" the perfect, indicative, active form of "eggizoo," meaning "I bring near" or "I come near," for the third-person singular, referring to hee basileia toon ouranoon, translated as "the kingdom of the skies." While most "agree" that the phrase "toon ouranoon" is in the genitive case, showing possession, I believe it is actually in the ablative case, showing origin. The two look exactly the same in Koine Greek (8 cases), and they ARE exactly the same in Classical Greek (5 cases)! Thus, "from the skies" is a good translation. The whole phrase then is "has come near the kingdom from the skies," or in English word order (N-V), "the kingdom from the skies has come near." It doesn't mean "it's here to stay!" Yochanan (John) was telling them to reach out and TAKE IT! ACCEPT IT! "Repent! (Change your minds!) for the kingdom from the skies has come near!" And, as usual, one should see this in context:

Matthew 3:1-12 (KJV)

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying,

"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying,

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness,

"'Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.'"

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them,

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, 'We have Abraham to our father': for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham! 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize (all of) you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan (winnowing fork) is in his hand, and he will throughly purge (burn off) his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire!" [I.e., be the wheat, not the chaff!]

Matthew 12:28 is much the same. It's not necessarily a permanent coming. Here's the context:

Matthew 12:22-37 (KJV)

22 Then was brought unto him (Yeshua`) one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said,

"Is not this the son of David?" [i.e., the heir of David.]

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said,

"This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub (Lord of Flies) the prince of the devils."

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them,

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 BUT if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 "He that is not with me (Pharisees) is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 "Wherefore I say unto you, 'All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.' 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost (of YHWH GOD), it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age), neither in the world (age) to come.

33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, (Pharisees,) That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

One can easily see which way the Pharisees chose to go!

Regarding Matthew 13:11, Yeshua` was talking to His disciples, those who believed that He was indeed the Messiah of God sent to be the King; however, the people, particularly the Pharisees and the ones whom they led, were the ones blinded to the secrets of God's Kingdom:

Matthew 13:10-17 (KJV)

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him,

"Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them,

"Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries (secrets) of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,

"'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.'

16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, 'That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.'"

The prophets were told about the coming of the Messiah and the miracles He would perform, and they were hoping they would get to see it in their lifetimes, but unfortunately, they died before they could see it come to pass. One of those prophets was the prophetess Anna (Hannah) in the Temple, when Yeshua` was brought in after being circumcised, when His mother had been purified (40 days for a male child), to be presented to YHWH and for sacrifices (two turtledoves, a poor person's sacrifice) to be offered.

The righteous men, too, who read the prophecies, hoped the same thing! One of those men was Simeon (Shim`own) in the Temple at Yeshua`s presentation to YHWH.

However, probably neither of them lived long enough to hear His teachings.

 

Really? There was NO "New" when Yeshua` offered the Kingdom to the children of Israel! Yeshua` the Messiah fulfilled the prophecies about Himself! He said as much:

Matthew 5:17-19 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (the Hebrew letter yod) or one tittle (the "thorn" or seraf of a Hebrew letter, like the difference between the Hebrew letters dalet and reish) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.' 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (like honoring the sabbath day, for instance), and shall teach men so (to do likewise), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

That's sheer nonsense. Why would the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym encourage anyone not to take what He had written through His prophets LITERALLY?! He had it written EXACTLY as He wanted it written!

• That kingdom left (when the King left).

Again, briefly. It's not here now.

Nonsense. The kingdom was not "within" the Pharisees, to whom Yeshua` was speaking; it was "among" the Pharisees! And, it was "among" them because the KING-TO-BE was "among" them at that time! When He left in the ascension, it was no longer "among" them!

That's because it hadn't been realized, yet!

We've seen 46 pages here because of the stubbornness and rebellion to listen to the reason of the Scriptures! One must listen to YHWH God's heart before one can hope to understand the "simple reading of God's Word." YHWH God loves His children, the children of Israel, who were His children LONG before "Christians" came along! Sure, they were rebellious children, but does that make them any less His children? One should be careful how he or she responds to that question, because "Christians" are just as much God's children as the children of Israel are. IF (a very big IF, btw) God could turn His back on the rebellious children of Israel, then what makes one think He couldn't turn His back on rebellious "Christians?"

Christ's kingdom did not "leave"!  His kingdom is within his children - Christ in us, the hope of glory.  The King is in us, by the Holy Spirit, ruling and reigning over his kingdom.

[DeighAnn]

39 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Nowhere does the NT state the kingdom left the planet, either.

Then we certainly understand this differently also

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Nowhere does it say it was set up or it stayed behind without its king either.  

DO you believe we are living in the kingdom of heaven right now and that Jesus is ruling all the kingdoms of the earth with a rod of Iron?

Do you believe the book of John deals more with the after effects or changes because of the rejection than the other 3?


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


If I understand your position Jesus came to earth in the flesh to bring in the kingdom of heaven and had He been accepted instead of rejected he STILL would have returned to heaven to rule from there, correct?

Also that Jesus and the armies leave heaven but just ride around in the sky and then go back to heaven to rule?

Was there ever to be a physical kingdom set upon earth, set up for the word that became FLESH and walked among us to be King on a throne for the nations to come and worship?

Gods chosen people wanted a 'flesh' king so rejected Him.  He came in the flesh and they rejected Him again.  Are you saying He is NOT COMING again but from heaven will rule, as He did in the beginning?  

d

[DeighAnn]

28 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Christ's kingdom did not "leave"!  His kingdom is within his children - Christ in us, the hope of glory.  The King is in us, by the Holy Spirit, ruling and reigning over his kingdom.

Are we or are we not LIVING in faith right now?  Isn't faith of things not seen?  Are we witnesses spreading the word to the world or are we priests ruling and reigning with Him?  If we are how is it we have not been caught up and in our incorruptible bodies?   

The Discussion is not about the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of heaven but the PHYSICAL kingdom of heaven on earth where ALL KNEES WILL BOW...
Where the nations will come every year to worship.  Where there will be a temple not built with hands.  Where the priests will serve.  That is what we are discussing, not the OVERALL state of God and the Lord and Saviour but the specific DAY OF THE LORD.  

Only things missing are His temple, dwelling amongst us, ruling with a rod of Iron, the throne the ANGELS that come with Him when he returns as King of Kings and Lord of lords.  They are two different subjects.   

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The entire paradigm is built on a Judaism of Christian eschatology, one that itself comes from a hermeneutic invented in the 19th century. 

Don't know what that means but He will not be the King of ISRAEL but the KING OF KINGS all the kingdoms of the world.  That is the one we are discussing.