The Need for a Future Millennium

[BlindSeeker]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:50 PM, Retrobyter said:

Hi, Justin.

Not at all when one realizes that HE HAS NOT YET BEGUN TO REIGN!

You have said some excellent things along the way, but then these little bits of leaven, as it were, undoes it all for me, and I'm only on page 3...

It is reminding me of the saying that "The best lie is the one with the must truth in it, and only a pinch of error." You know, just like "No lie is of the truth" or "A little leaven will leaven the whole?"

If Jesus has sat down on His Father's throne after being manifested in the flesh and justified in the spirit, seen of angel and received with a choir of angelic praise "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing," then brother, Jesus is indeed reigning.

Edited May 7, 2024 by BlindSeeker

[BlindSeeker]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:32 AM, Don19 said:

As for the millennium, it is indeed a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth. We can see clearly that the end times are approaching. The church age lasts "about two thousand" years. This is the time of the Gentiles, and is signified in Mark 5:13 by the swine (representing Gentiles) being "about two thousand." The times of the Gentiles began in Acts 10, so we are approximately a decade to a decade and a half away from the exact 2000 year mark. But, in addition to this, we can see how God, who has declared the end from the beginning, has planned for the history of the earth so that the final 1000 years (after all, a day being as a thousand years) is the Sabbath, as it were, as the earth is about 6000 years old right now. And, it's right on time that Israel has been regathered in the land and attained statehood just in the last 100 years.

Amen.
 

Hosea 6:1 - Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up.
 2 After two [millennial] days will he revive us: in the third [millennial] day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight.
 3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

[BlindSeeker]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:24 AM, Retrobyter said:

"Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter? 36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly. 37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess. 38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another. 39 But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly (Greek: en tee ennomoo ekkleesia = "in the legal assembly"). 40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse!"

41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly (Greek: teen ekkleesian = "the assembly").

This is a city gathering, which we would have called "a mob." Many didn't even know why they were there! So, when the townclerk could get their attention and get them to settle down a bit, he told them that IF Demetrius had a dispute against Paul and his companions, they should have a lawful, town council convened.

But, he warned the men of Ephesus that they were in danger (from the Romans and their vassal king over them for "this day's uproar," which was inexcusable. 

Then, he dismissed the assembly! It was huge and unruly, but it only involved their one community, and if convened correctly, would have been an organized town meeting.

THAT'S what an "ekkleesia" is.

Are you really so sure about it? The passage does NOT say who make up this "church!" Does that make the Messiah a polygamist? (Think about it! There are multiple churches within "His body," and multiple persons within each church!) At best, this is an imperfect analogy. The church is NOT an entity itself. It is a COLLECTION of people! It's NOT a single person!

It may be one legally to avoid individuals within the church being sued, and thus, the church has a beginning (a birth), an ending in some cases if its existence is beyond its usefulness (a death), and can hold property, can have insurance policies, and can collect and distribute money for debt, all like an individual, but this legal status is not a physical reality.

Furthermore, the word "ekkleesia" is a participle that acts like an adjective, a "called-out," that also acts like a gerund, like a noun. As such it is more like a COLLECTIVE noun, such as "flock" of geese, or a "school" of fish,  or a "pride" of lions. As such, we may treat it as a singular noun, but the truth is that it is "where two or more gather together in my name" (Mattthew 18:20).

 That is an interesting study on the Greek word for assembly and such. But, the question or statement about the word "Church," an English word to which the Greek was transliterated unto, which equally carries its own unique translation and usage. Such is why an assembly of Jews (temple or synagogue) or a Muslims (mosque) or JW's (Kingdom Hall) would never call a "Church."

WEBSTER'S 1828 AMERICAN DICTIONARY of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE - 

CHURCH, noun

1. A house consecrated to the worship of God, among Christians; the Lords house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word. The Greek, to call out or call together, denotes an assembly or collection. But, Lord, a term applied by the early Christians to Jesus Christ; and the house in which they worshipped was named from the title. So church goods, bona ecclesiastica; the Lords day, dies dominica.

2. The collective body of Christians, or of those who profess to believe in Christ, and acknowledge him to be the Savior of mankind. In this sense, the church is sometimes called the Catholic or Universal church

3. A particular number of Christians, united under one form of ecclesiastical government, in one creed, and using the same ritual and ceremonies; as the English church; the Gallican church; the Presbyterian church; the Romish church; the Greek church

4. The followers of Christ in a particular city or province; as the church of Ephesus, or of Antioch.

5. The disciples of Christ assembled for worship in a particular place, as in a private house. Colossians 4:15.

6. The worshipers of Jehovah or the true God, before the advent of Christ; as the Jewish church

7. The body of clergy, or ecclesiastics, in distinction from the laity. Hence, ecclesiastical authority.

8. An assembly of sacred rulers convened in Christs name to execute his laws.

9. The collective body of Christians, who have made a public profession of the Christian religion, and who are united under the same pastor; in distinction from those who belong to the same parish, or ecclesiastical society, but have made no profession of their faith.

 

I know you are into Hebrew Roots, but perhaps endeavoring to be all things to all people, (...unto the Romans as a Roman...) will help. Meaning, you must first respect the usage of language of the people to whom you are speaking before asserting on top of it the application of another. It is a simple fact, how "ekkleesia" was used in the Greek does not regulate the usage and meaning of Church in English. Perhaps that will help you from being so absolute in your statements.

Edited May 7, 2024 by BlindSeeker

[BlindSeeker]

I sure wish that more reference to scripture was utilized instead of the volumes people post. Most know the scriptures with a brief quote and a reference thereunto....

So much time is lost needlessly in scrolling through volumes of verse posted for support. 

[BlindSeeker]

On 10/31/2021 at 10:07 AM, Alive said:

DeighAnn…wow, you pasted a ton of scripture and I read thru much of it, but can you express briefly, what it is that you are teaching?

Case and point. 
Not sure I can continue reading through this thread....

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:10 PM, BlindSeeker said:

Do you feel that all those prophecies are as infallible as those in the Bible, and if so, is the Bible an inferior compilation being incomplete?

Shalom, BlindSeeker.

All those prophecies ARE in the Bible and thus are just as infallible as the ones fulfilled in the First Advent! The Bible is neither an inferior compilation nor is it incomplete. One just must admit that there are some prophecies in the Bible that have NOT been fulfilled, yet!

[Retrobyter]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:52 PM, BlindSeeker said:

 That is an interesting study on the Greek word for assembly and such. But, the question or statement about the word "Church," an English word to which the Greek was transliterated unto, which equally carries its own unique translation and usage. Such is why an assembly of Jews (temple or synagogue) or a Muslims (mosque) or JW's (Kingdom Hall) would never call a "Church."

WEBSTER'S 1828 AMERICAN DICTIONARY of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE - 

CHURCH, noun

1. A house consecrated to the worship of God, among Christians; the Lords house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word. The Greek, to call out or call together, denotes an assembly or collection. But, Lord, a term applied by the early Christians to Jesus Christ; and the house in which they worshipped was named from the title. So church goods, bona ecclesiastica; the Lords day, dies dominica.

2. The collective body of Christians, or of those who profess to believe in Christ, and acknowledge him to be the Savior of mankind. In this sense, the church is sometimes called the Catholic or Universal church

3. A particular number of Christians, united under one form of ecclesiastical government, in one creed, and using the same ritual and ceremonies; as the English church; the Gallican church; the Presbyterian church; the Romish church; the Greek church

4. The followers of Christ in a particular city or province; as the church of Ephesus, or of Antioch.

5. The disciples of Christ assembled for worship in a particular place, as in a private house. Colossians 4:15.

6. The worshipers of Jehovah or the true God, before the advent of Christ; as the Jewish church

7. The body of clergy, or ecclesiastics, in distinction from the laity. Hence, ecclesiastical authority.

8. An assembly of sacred rulers convened in Christs name to execute his laws.

9. The collective body of Christians, who have made a public profession of the Christian religion, and who are united under the same pastor; in distinction from those who belong to the same parish, or ecclesiastical society, but have made no profession of their faith.

The original languages of Greek and Hebrew in which the Bible was written (or of which we have the oldest translations) were BEFORE English came along. The Greek word "ekkleesia" (which means a "called out" assembly) was TRANSLATED into the English word "church" or "churches" in the translations of the Greek texts into the English versions of the Bible.

The English word "church" itself comes from the Greek word "kuriaskon" or "kuriokon" which means "of the Lord." This word was ADDED to the texts as a way to SPECIFY to which "ekkleesia" one was referring. So, we get the word "church" from the history of Greek, German, Dutch, Old English, into today's English.

Here is the etymology of the word "church" in a common dictionary:

"Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, related to Dutch kerk and German Kirche, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (dōma) ‘Lord's (house)’, from kurios ‘master or lord’. Compare with kirk." 

On 5/7/2024 at 3:52 PM, BlindSeeker said:

I know you are into Hebrew Roots, but perhaps endeavoring to be all things to all people, (...unto the Romans as a Roman...) will help. Meaning, you must first respect the usage of language of the people to whom you are speaking before asserting on top of it the application of another. It is a simple fact, how "ekkleesia" was used in the Greek does not regulate the usage and meaning of Church in English. Perhaps that will help you from being so absolute in your statements.

No, I reject this point of view. See, what has happened to the languages of the Bible down through the last two millennia is a DETERIORATION of the information, not an improvement! It's a form of literary ENTROPY, like playing the kid's game "telephone" for children 5 and up. The game is described like this:

"Make the children stand or sit in a circle. Whisper a message in one child's ear and ask him to pass the message to the child next to him. The message has to pass from one child to another until the last child whispers it back into your ear." The way the message is garbled by the time it goes through all the children in the circle can be quite extensive, especially if a long message is passed!

To understand the original authors of the Bible, one must go back to the oldest and most reliable sources as close to the original languages as possible. One should NOT put too much faith in the translation of the original texts as one has in the original texts themselves. The more time has passed and the more languages through which the original texts have passed hands, the WORSE the changes will be! I trust God to preserve His Word well enough that a person can still find God's justification for an individual, but we have a degraded message, at least in the nuances of the words being used and translated.

Furthermore, the Greek influence of Christian theology that happened from the late 100s t0 the 1500s A.D. have GREATLY distorted the original understanding of the tenets of the Christian faith. Just because the oldest manuscripts we have of the New Testament books were written in Koine Greek doesn't mean that we should accept either Greek philosophy or Greek mythology, and yet, we had early teachers that pushed both! For instance, some claim that Yeeshuwa` used the word "Hades" in the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. However, the ACTUAL word used was "hadee" which comes from the root word "eidoo" meaning "I see" with the alpha prefix used as a negative particle. "Hadee" means the "unseen." It is NOT a reference to the Greek mythological place called "Hades!"

And, this is just one of THOUSANDS of such misunderstandings because of Greek influence!

I haven't even BEGUN to talk about the Hebrew language in the Old Testament, but the same results were found in translations of those books, too!

Edited May 9, 2024 by Retrobyter
to fix a typo

[Retrobyter]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:18 PM, BlindSeeker said:

 Yes, I found it a bit offensive.
To me it is like saying the longsuffering and forbearance of God is evidence of His lack of power...

Shalom, BlindSeeker. 

Not trying to be offensive in my comment, but one should know that claiming the Messiah is currently reigning is MORE offensive to me! He SAID He wouldn't be reigning until He has returned! To think this is all there is to His Kingdom belittles His authority to take up His ancestor David's throne!

Oh, and by the way, He will reign for MUCH longer than a thousand years!

Revelation 22:1-5 KJV — And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and THEY SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER!

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:28 PM, BlindSeeker said:

You have said some excellent things along the way, but then these little bits of leaven, as it were, undoes it all for me, and I'm only on page 3...

It is reminding me of the saying that "The best lie is the one with the must truth in it, and only a pinch of error." You know, just like "No lie is of the truth" or "A little leaven will leaven the whole?"

If Jesus has sat down on His Father's throne after being manifested in the flesh and justified in the spirit, seen of angel and received with a choir of angelic praise "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing," then brother, Jesus is indeed reigning.

Shalom, again, BlindSeeker.

Nope. Yeeshuwa` Himself said,

Matthew 25:31-32 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:..."

The Scriptures do NOT say that He is currently reigning.

Yeeshuwa` said, 

Matthew 22:44 (KJV)

44 "'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool"'?"

He was quoting Psalm 110:1

This is repeated in Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42-43. Peter repeated this in Acts 2:34-35.

Revelation 3:21 is probably the closest to what most believe, but one should look closely at the wording:

Revelation 3:21 (KJV)

21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in MY throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in HIS throne."

The throne (dais) upon which Yeeshuwa` was "set down" is in HIS, the FATHER'S, throne, not His own nor their throne! The Greek word translated "His" used in this verse is autou, which is the genitive, SINGULAR, masculine pronoun! He is set down on His Father's right hand, but He is NOT reigning on His FATHER'S throne! There's not a SINGLE PLACE in the Scriptures that says the Son of God is reigning right now!

Yeeshuwa` also said this parable:

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will NOT have this [man] to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..."

Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God shall be the King on this earth, beginning in Jerusalem, as the King of the Jews and shall become the King of Israel, as He calls His people home to Israel. Then, as He annexes other nations, He will become the King of kings, a title for a "World Emperor!"

In 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. (But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest [obvious] that "he" is excepted, which did put "all things under him.")

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Paul was talking about THREE Resurrections: Yeeshuwa`s own resurrection in the First Century A.D. in 30 A.D. was the first one; Those who belong to the Messiah will be resurrected at the Messiah's coming; and, the third resurrection will be AFTER the Messiah has reigned for 1,000 years and put down all rule and authority and power (Revelation 20:4-6). So, it will be ONE KINGDOM AT A TIME until all have been put under His feet! Then, the LAST enemy destroyed will be death (Revelation 20:14).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If Yeeshuwa` is currently reigning, He is the most INEFFECTIVE KING there has ever been! Of course, this is TOTAL FICTION, which means that He is NOT currently reigning.

[BlindSeeker]

On 5/9/2024 at 5:53 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BlindSeeker.

All those prophecies ARE in the Bible and thus are just as infallible as the ones fulfilled in the First Advent! The Bible is neither an inferior compilation nor is it incomplete. One just must admit that there are some prophecies in the Bible that have NOT been fulfilled, yet!

Why then the need to substantiate prophecies in the Bible with outside sources? Is the text of the other sources as "infallible" and prophecies within them?