Slaves to righteousness…..

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Faith is not causal. Faith is the vehicle for effective salvation. It is through faith we are saved, not through faithfulness. Abraham was deemed righteous by faith, not by faithfulness. Faith is belief and trust. Faithfulness is work or works. It's a very important, critically important difference. 

Understanding is definitely also important but, again, it is not understanding that is causal. It is a vehicle of the process though. It too is critically important because believing in the wrong God is deadly. We see this when Christians talk with LDS or JWs. The cultists use the exact same language but they mean entirely different things. When a Christian is talking about Jesus we mean the divine Son of God and we do NOT mean an otherwise ordinary human being who was especially endowed by God with special benefits. The same word "Jesus" is used but two entirely different meanings. 

But that particular problem of like terms with different meaning is not applicable to the Romans 6:17-18 with Paul and his audience. That audience were all working from a common understanding of a singular teaching: The logos of God that is God crucified and resurrected. That is the teaching. That is the teaching of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and Peter. That is the teaching to which they had been entrust, and the teaching with which they had been entrusted. In that particular passage Paul is not discussing varying interpretations of one or more teachings. 

Neither the teaching nor an understanding of it is the cause of service to righteousness. God is the cause. And, that service does not occur until having been freed from sin. Paul is very specific and explicit about that aspect: having been freed we become bondservants of righteousness. 

And you're correct: there is nothing the unregenerate can do. No amount of will or works can effect any change in the condition of slavery to sin. But that's technically outside the context of Paul's discourse. He is writing as a regenerated believer to regenerated believers about regenerated believers and the circumstances the experience in Christ. 

Once again--distinctions are important to make in order to have clarity. Especially in a text medium with all kinds of folks reading. It is profitable for us for many reasons--chiefest is to prompt better study habits and the revelation that we are individuals who are members of a Body and we need members. From God's perspective, this is a vital reality.

These are things that encourage me that the forum has value.

:-)

[Sower]

On 10/29/2021 at 7:26 AM, Josheb said:

Any view that asserts the person, and not God, bears the fruit is a false dichotomy. 

Yes?

.

[Sower]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

I see the breakdown in communication now. 

 I never said, "Believers abiding in Christ bear fruit" is a false dichotomy, but it is somehow seen fit to tell me that's what I posted. 

 

Perhaps Josheb this, and the quote above will help you understand my dilemma. I told you at the onset there's got to be some sort of miscommunication. All I was trying from the get-go was to explain to you my belief that those who abide, meaning Believers, or the ones that bear the fruit of Jesus Christ who, is the producer of the fruit. Not the abiding believer. I thought I made that crystal clear. If I have communicated not with kindness as you implied, then I apologize. I had a feeling when I did some research that the word bear and the word produce are the same Greek word. Based on your replies I assume, assumed, you did not fully understand my post. My only reason for making any reply to you to start with was simply my belief that it is the abiding believer that bears the fruit, meaning making visible that which Jesus Christ has produced in US. I don't know how else to make that clear to you. My problem is the understanding of false dichotomy. When I said no to your question, my answer was to my understanding that you did not believe abiding Christians could bear fruit. Thus the misunderstanding. Again my apologies if you feel that by saying something like lowering the Boom was not in kindness. Due to our previous little discussion months ago, I thought we had a rapport that would allow me to throw in a little humor. It didn't work. I hesitated before even my first post, anticipating what has occurred.

The reason for the two separate quotes is on this mini cell phone that I am forced to use now, I cannot multi quote from different pages.

Again my apologies to you for having caused you to believe that I was unkind in my post.

[Hopefully]

“The sinful self wants what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is against the sinful self. They are always fighting against each other, so that you don’t do what you really want to do. But if you let the Spirit lead you, you are not under law.
 

The wrong things the sinful self does are clear: committing sexual sin, being morally bad, doing all kinds of shameful things, worshiping false gods, taking part in witchcraft, hating people, causing trouble, being jealous, angry or selfish, causing people to argue and divide into separate groups, being filled with envy, getting drunk, having wild parties, and doing other things like this. I warn you now as I warned you before: The people who do these things will not have a part in God’s kingdom.

But the fruit that the Spirit produces in a person’s life is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these kinds of things. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their sinful self. They have given up their old selfish feelings and the evil things they wanted to do. We get our new life from the Spirit, so we should follow the Spirit. We must not feel proud and boast about ourselves. We must not cause trouble for each other or be jealous of each other.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17-26‬ ‭

[Not me]

8 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

“The sinful self wants what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is against the sinful self. They are always fighting against each other, so that you don’t do what you really want to do. But if you let the Spirit lead you, you are not under law.
 

The wrong things the sinful self does are clear: committing sexual sin, being morally bad, doing all kinds of shameful things, worshiping false gods, taking part in witchcraft, hating people, causing trouble, being jealous, angry or selfish, causing people to argue and divide into separate groups, being filled with envy, getting drunk, having wild parties, and doing other things like this. I warn you now as I warned you before: The people who do these things will not have a part in God’s kingdom.

But the fruit that the Spirit produces in a person’s life is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these kinds of things. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their sinful self. They have given up their old selfish feelings and the evil things they wanted to do. We get our new life from the Spirit, so we should follow the Spirit. We must not feel proud and boast about ourselves. We must not cause trouble for each other or be jealous of each other.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17-26‬ ‭

As our pursuing of Him is, will and do these truth become known by experience…

Oh, to pursue Him the more, that we might experience the more, and so does the heart rejoice at the thought,…

In the Beloved, Not me 

[Your closest friendnt]

40 minutes ago, Not me said:

As our pursuing of Him is, will and do these truth become known by experience…

Oh, to pursue Him the more, that we might experience the more, and so does the heart rejoice at the thought,…

In the Beloved, Not me 

 

It's not clear what is "and so the heart rejoices at the thought" what is this when we know that our heart rejoices in dreaming, and it dreams big and out of the bounds of reality. 

This is what Jesus was telling his disciples...who were not season with how Jesus is going to worked with them, they did not have the faintest idea, how Jesus would work with them and how they will know his will after his ascension. 

They knew that the were chosen for a mission and they were given the great commission to bring the Good News about Jesus to the ends of the world, to Nations they have never been and they would have to go there as strangers with their Jewish attire and with their Jewish accent and what about the $...what about if it runs out, and what about their security, thinking that they will have security among the others Jews???security among the other Jews???

When in Jerusalem while with Jesus their hearts rejoice in the thought in many things and their mothers rejoice in those thoughts of their hearts (they imagine them selves as very important people among their Nation, thinking very high of themselves and rejoice in those thoughts.

...

[Not me]

2 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

It's not clear what is "and so the heart rejoices at the thought" what is this when we know that our heart rejoices in dreaming, and it dreams big and out of the bounds of reality. 

This is what Jesus was telling his disciples...who were not season with how Jesus is going to worked with them, they did not have the faintest idea, how Jesus would work with them and how they will know his will after his ascension. 

They knew that the were chosen for a mission and they were given the great commission to bring the Good News about Jesus to the ends of the world, to Nations they have never been and they would have to go there as strangers with their Jewish attire and with their Jewish accent and what about the $...what about if it runs out, and what about their security, thinking that they will have security among the others Jews???security among the other Jews???

When in Jerusalem while with Jesus their hearts rejoice in the thought in many things and their mothers rejoice in those thoughts of their hearts (they imagine them selves as very important people among their Nation, thinking very high of themselves and rejoice in those thoughts.

...

I’m sorry, maybe this might make it clearer..

The heart rejoices at the thought of experiencing the truths that were in the verses that were being quoted, in a deeper way

Hope it helps, Not me 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, Not me said:

I’m sorry, maybe this might make it clearer..

The heart rejoices at the thought of experiencing the truths that were in the verses that were being quoted, in a deeper way

Hope it helps, Not me 

Do you think that this is possible for those being brought up in the strict Jewish culture? 

Those people were rejoicing in the thought of knowing that they were in their righteousness, from very young were taught to lead very careful lives and they were proud of their selves but they lived their lives with fear, the fear of not knowing what will happen the next day and the next to the next day...while in their Jewish culture they never said that they do not need the Atonements. 

[Not me]

1 minute ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Do you think that this is possible for those being brought up in the strict Jewish culture? 

Those people were rejoicing in the thought of knowing that they were in their righteousness, from very young were taught to lead very careful lives and they were proud of their selves but they lived their lives with fear, the fear of not knowing what will happen the next day and the next to the next day...while in their Jewish culture they never said that they do not need the Atonements. 

Sure, the experiencing of God’s truths are open to all who’s heart are willing…

Be blessed in the willingness, Not me 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 minute ago, Not me said:

Sure, the experiencing of God’s truths are open to all who’s heart are willing…

Be blessed in the willingness, Not me 

You really are making my life less boring and that is something I do not need to tell you why.

But is there is one thing I do not want in life is something that we all need to have to protect ourselves from invasive inquiries, and that can be done in various environments and it's necessary to be so as not to disclose things about ourselves and some times to avoid self incrimination. 

But this cannot work out in front of a Justice.