The Temple of Flesh or the Temple of Stone?

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have no idea how this addresses the what and when from the OP. "Which Temple is it?" and "When is the Temple?" is what is being explored. 

In retrospect you are correct. Please ignore the posting. Sorry for sidetracking.

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have no idea how this addresses the what and when from the OP. "Which Temple is it?" and "When is the Temple?" is what is being explored. 

Hello Diaste, 

I know this will be repetitive, I want to make the case for clarity since the topic is up again. (not surprisingly) Someone can take it or leave it. 

I don't think there will be a temple built for the anti-Christ, which what it would amount to. NO temple will be built before Jesus returns IMO. The temple portrayed in Ezekiel's vision is for the millennium serving as some say, a living museum/memorial to show the horrific nature of the sacrifice given for the redemption of mankind.

The former head of Jewish group that has been preparing for temple worship stated their grounded belief that the Messiah must come and he referred to Zec. 6:12- And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

I am NOT CONVINCED they would allow anyone but a high priest to enter the Holy Place, nor would cameras be allowed and CERTAINLY NOT a blasphemous brutal dictator! Nobody can show where he is anything but.

So what are we to make of Paul's writing in 2 Thes. 2?:

It comes down to a couple of things. I take into consideration that Paul is dictating his letter and may have had more emotion in his words than pen and paper can show. As in, "so that he... (tearing up?)...as God sits...(pointing up)...IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD....(finishing up)...displaying himself that he is God! 

Yes the word apodeiknymi has that connotation. As you will see, modern translators have taken liberty to make the jump to plainly declaring a man is sitting in a temple. I'll take the liberty show a crude image that doesn't claim to be an exact representation, but is similar enough to my view of how things will be harmonized despite the shock of those yawning because not a single stone will have been put in place. 

Daniel- an abomination on the wing (border/outskirt) of the temple

Jesus- you will see...in the Holy Place

Paul- showing himself as God sitting in the Temple of God

John- an image that speaks

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Uriah
punctuation

[Last Daze]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

The above is indisputable fact.

But so is this:

2 Thess 2

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

So if the body corporate is the only Temple of God  then the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will have to unseat God in His own Temple by invading the physical existence of every believer and in effect possessing millions of individuals.

Consider this verse:

• Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses.  Matthew 23:1-2

Was there a literal "chair of Moses" or is it a reference to their position of authority?

The man of sin will have no authority over the body of Christ but that won't stop him from pretending and deceiving.

Will there be another physical tabernacle / temple built before the millennial kingdom?  Possibly.  There is certainly an effort to build one.  But there doesn't need to be for 2 Thess 2 to be fulfilled.

[Last Daze]

On 11/12/2021 at 4:03 AM, Diaste said:

I'm going to go with the stone Temple. If the man of sin sits in the true Temple of God and the Holy Spirit then God is not powerful enough to stop the usurping of His chosen dwelling place. 

I think it's more a matter of coercion and choice, not force.  When the man of sin deceives the world through the signs he performs (Rev 13:14) and claims to be God, everyone in the world will have a choice to make . . . worship the image or be killed.  In claiming to be God, he presumes authority over those who say they worship God.  This will be a continuation of the segregation process that's currently underway.  Who will have the spiritual discernment to see through the lies?  How many believers have seen through the whole COVID / fake vaccine deception?

The body of Christ is currently in the process of being brought to the unity of the faith through the decisions we are making based on the spiritual discernment we gained from walking with Christ.

[FortifiedbyFaith]

SANHEDRIN BEGINS TO PREPARE OIL TO ANOINT KING MESSIAH/KOHEN GADOL

Nov 8, 2021

https://www.israel365news.com/201272/sanhedrin-begins-to-prepare-oil-to-anoint-king-messiah-kohen-gadol/

Exerpt  from the article - 

“Rabbi Hillel Weiss, the spokesman for the Sanhedrin, announced the beginning of the anointing oil project last week appropriately enough just before the holiday of Hannukah in a sermon he gave on the Temple Mount. Rabbi Weiss emphasized that a Kohen Gadol (High Priest) and Temple utensils will be anointed when the Temple service begins, which does not need an actual Temple structure, only an altar.

“The Temple and the Temple service benefit all the nations,” Rabbi Weiss explained. “For that reason, we made the announcement on the 27th of Cheshvan, the day that Noah exited the ark and made a sacrifice to God. At that time, God made a covenant with the entire world, promising never to bring another such catastrophic flood but also requiring that mankind perform the Seven Noahide Laws.””
(The bit about the Noahide Laws being a covenant of GOD is a blatant lie. The Noahide Laws are also specific to Gentiles. This is not part of Torah/Bible and does not come from the Bible. The laws are listed in the Talmud -not Bible sourced, but rather Rabbi interpretations meant to suppress personal Biblical knowledge and relationship with GOD and divert all teaching through the Rabbi’s themselves- and elaborated on by post-Talmudic authorities.)
 

and then there is this…

Remember Weiss’s words “a temple is not needed”. It is a significant statement relating back to the OP. For if the Jews do not need a temple, then the OP has been answered.

[MrBear]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

1 Cor 3

"Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple."

1 Cor 6

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God?"

2 Cor 6

"What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God."

The above is indisputable fact.

But so is this:

2 Thess 2

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

So if the body corporate is the only Temple of God  then the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will have to unseat God in His own Temple by invading the physical existence of every believer and in effect possessing millions of individuals.

It's more than obvious the 'he' in 2 Thess 2 has no such power or authority to body check the Holy Spirit out of His own house, a house and home decreed by our Father to be His dwelling place. Ergo, this Temple of the body corporate and individual is not the Temple in which the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will seat himself and declare himself God.

So which Temple is it? Since the Holy Spirit and our Father do not any longer inhabit a Temple of stone, as in ancient times, this 'he' can only ascend and seat himself in a Temple of stone. Therefore there must be a stone Temple ostensibly dedicated to God, but not sanctioned by our Father, a Temple of pretense and unapproved ritual wholly outside God's desires, intent, purpose and the truth of the real Temple and it's natural existence.

So 'when' is the 2 Thess 2 Temple? I would offer a parallel. If it's been established the true Temple of God and the dwelling of the Holy Spirit is the body corporate and individual, and that was true in the 1st century and it is true today, then it must be the true Temple exists now in 2021. If the truth Paul taught about the real Temple spans 20 centuries the prophecy of 2 Thess 2 can also span the centuries; and did not require a 1st century fulfillment.

That and the fact the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement has been working on this since 1967 and has everything required to build another Temple, is quite telling.

Bless the Lord!

He is coming!

 

 

 

 

 

 

There will be another temple built but it won’t be ordained by God

Gods new Jerusalem will decend from heaven it’s 1500 square miles ( someone did the math) 

It is also speculation ( again because no one knows the end of days but the Father) that this is when the false prophet will show up

Because remember

2 Chronicles 7

When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from the sky and burned up the burnt offering and the sacrifices. The Glory of the LORD filled the Temple

this is why the Jews are susceptible to being fooled by the False Prophet

REVELATION 13:13 

And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men.

this will happen for the whole world to see, But God won’t ordain the temple nor will there be a Leviticus Priesthood to oversee the process

As believers we have been given the word of God and been warned of things to come so it will be no surprise to us that the world falls under the False Prophet’s spell

Praise the Father for preparing us in advance?

SHALOM❤️

 

 

 

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

1 Cor 3

"Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple."

1 Cor 6

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God?"

2 Cor 6

"What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God."

The above is indisputable fact.

But so is this:

2 Thess 2

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

So if the body corporate is the only Temple of God  then the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will have to unseat God in His own Temple by invading the physical existence of every believer and in effect possessing millions of individuals.

It's more than obvious the 'he' in 2 Thess 2 has no such power or authority to body check the Holy Spirit out of His own house, a house and home decreed by our Father to be His dwelling place. Ergo, this Temple of the body corporate and individual is not the Temple in which the 'he' of 2 Thess 2 will seat himself and declare himself God.

So which Temple is it? Since the Holy Spirit and our Father do not any longer inhabit a Temple of stone, as in ancient times, this 'he' can only ascend and seat himself in a Temple of stone. Therefore there must be a stone Temple ostensibly dedicated to God, but not sanctioned by our Father, a Temple of pretense and unapproved ritual wholly outside God's desires, intent, purpose and the truth of the real Temple and it's natural existence.

So 'when' is the 2 Thess 2 Temple? I would offer a parallel. If it's been established the true Temple of God and the dwelling of the Holy Spirit is the body corporate and individual, and that was true in the 1st century and it is true today, then it must be the true Temple exists now in 2021. If the truth Paul taught about the real Temple spans 20 centuries the prophecy of 2 Thess 2 can also span the centuries; and did not require a 1st century fulfillment.

That and the fact the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement has been working on this since 1967 and has everything required to build another Temple, is quite telling.

Bless the Lord!

He is coming!

Hello Diaste,

I agree with all of your reasoning here.  If I said it any differently, I would be hard pressed to say it any better.

Concerning your question, "'when' is the 2 Thess 2 Temple?"  the way I see things shaping up, it will definitely be in existence for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.  Whereas I have a lot of thoughts concerning this, there are a few things that I would like to put forth in support of your position, things that I don't believe will distract from the goal of your thread.

Something that has been for a long time very interesting to me is something that scholarship has completely missed.  I have yet to find what I am fixing to point out commented on in print or in the web world or anywhere for that matter---except by me.  Consider afresh from Revelation 11:

¹ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Now, while the "temple of God" is here mentioned and there is worship going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  I submit that the primary Scripture reference that you use for your opening post gives us some of the most valuable commentary directly related to what John sees going on here.  Consider Paul's words from II Thessalonians 2:

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You know, I believe that the Father would like for His children to be able to do some simple math, and according to my country boy ciphering, it is easy to deduce that the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" of which Paul speaks is the one John sees being worshiped in Revelation 11:1.  It is certainly not hard to gather that the time frame of this worship that John speaks of connects hard with the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week.  The next two verses give us the two 3-1/2 year time periods (Rev. 11:2-3).  We see "the beast" then mentioned in verse 7.  And, in this same time frame of time, it is stated explicitly that the beast is being worshiped.  Consider from Revelation 13:

⁴ And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And, a few verses later...

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Taken with what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse, things come into focus more and more.  Consider from Matthew 24:

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Or, Mark 13:

¹⁴ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Of course, with all the foregoing, I can't help but to be reminded of what was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" in Daniel chapter nine.  On this one, it could all be emphasized, so I will just leave it as it is and let the good Lord do the emphasizing...

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Finally, what is spoken of in Revelation 11:1 comes right after John is told to digest the "little book" that he at this time sees "open" (Rev. 10:2, 8-10).  What "little book open" would this be?   Just a little more math.  Consider once again from Daniel, chapter 12:

⁴ But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And a few verses further...

⁸ And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

⁹ And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

¹⁰ Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Again, what "little book open" would this be?  My guess (the biggest understatement of my post!) would be that it is the little book of Daniel.

Well, admittedly, it is a little bit more than 2+2=4.  More like 2+2+2+2+2=10.   I'm kinda thinking that the scholars need to remember again what they learned in the first grade.  And, we can't forget what Jesus said in John 16:13.  He is the best teacher, the Teacher of teachers.

Just think pardner, I said all that and no one by this post could pick up on whether I'm pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, or something else.  But, anyone can pick up on this---I most certainly believe, based on Scripture, that there is going to be another temple, in exact accord with what I perceive your position to be.  And, that's about all I have to say about that.  I won't be drawn into any arguments about it.  I only put this forth in support of your position and for the other brother's and sister's consideration...

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, FortifiedbyFaith said:

SANHEDRIN BEGINS TO PREPARE OIL TO ANOINT KING MESSIAH/KOHEN GADOL

Nov 8, 2021

https://www.israel365news.com/201272/sanhedrin-begins-to-prepare-oil-to-anoint-king-messiah-kohen-gadol/

Exerpt  from the article - 

“Rabbi Hillel Weiss, the spokesman for the Sanhedrin, announced the beginning of the anointing oil project last week appropriately enough just before the holiday of Hannukah in a sermon he gave on the Temple Mount. Rabbi Weiss emphasized that a Kohen Gadol (High Priest) and Temple utensils will be anointed when the Temple service begins, which does not need an actual Temple structure, only an altar.

“The Temple and the Temple service benefit all the nations,” Rabbi Weiss explained. “For that reason, we made the announcement on the 27th of Cheshvan, the day that Noah exited the ark and made a sacrifice to God. At that time, God made a covenant with the entire world, promising never to bring another such catastrophic flood but also requiring that mankind perform the Seven Noahide Laws.””
(The bit about the Noahide Laws being a covenant of GOD is a blatant lie. The Noahide Laws are also specific to Gentiles. This is not part of Torah/Bible and does not come from the Bible. The laws are listed in the Talmud -not Bible sourced, but rather Rabbi interpretations meant to suppress personal Biblical knowledge and relationship with GOD and divert all teaching through the Rabbi’s themselves- and elaborated on by post-Talmudic authorities.)
 

and then there is this…

Remember Weiss’s words “a temple is not needed”. It is a significant statement relating back to the OP. For if the Jews do not need a temple, then the OP has been answered.

I don't know. Paul was Jew. Met Jesus. Taught by Apostles. He said "So he will seat[To sit down] himself in the temple of God, proclaiming[prove] himself to be God."

That seems pretty plain to me.

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I agree with all of your reasoning here.  If I said it any differently, I would be hard pressed to say it any better.

Concerning your question, "'when' is the 2 Thess 2 Temple?"  the way I see things shaping up, it will definitely be in existence for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.  Whereas I have a lot of thoughts concerning this, there are a few things that I would like to put forth in support of your position, things that I don't believe will distract from the goal of your thread.

Something that has been for a long time very interesting to me is something that scholarship has completely missed.  I have yet to find what I am fixing to point out commented on in print or in the web world or anywhere for that matter---except by me.  Consider afresh from Revelation 11:

¹ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Now, while the "temple of God" is here mentioned and there is worship going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  I submit that the primary Scripture reference that you use for your opening post gives us some of the most valuable commentary directly related to what John sees going on here.  Consider Paul's words from II Thessalonians 2:

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You know, I believe that the Father would like for His children to be able to do some simple math, and according to my country boy ciphering, it is easy to deduce that the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" of which Paul speaks is the one John sees being worshiped in Revelation 11:1.  It is certainly not hard to gather that the time frame of this worship that John speaks of connects hard with the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week.  The next two verses give us the two 3-1/2 year time periods (Rev. 11:2-3).  We see "the beast" then mentioned in verse 7.  And, in this same time frame of time, it is stated explicitly that the beast is being worshiped.  Consider from Revelation 13:

⁴ And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And, a few verses later...

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Taken with what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse, things come into focus more and more.  Consider from Matthew 24:

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Or, Mark 13:

¹⁴ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Of course, with all the foregoing, I can't help but to be reminded of what was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" in Daniel chapter nine.  On this one, it could all be emphasized, so I will just leave it as it is and let the good Lord do the emphasizing...

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Finally, what is spoken of in Revelation 11:1 comes right after John is told to digest the "little book" that he at this time sees "open" (Rev. 10:2, 8-10).  What "little book open" would this be?   Just a little more math.  Consider once again from Daniel, chapter 12:

⁴ But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And a few verses further...

⁸ And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

⁹ And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

¹⁰ Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Again, what "little book open" would this be?  My guess (the biggest understatement of my post!) would be that it is the little book of Daniel.

Well, admittedly, it is a little bit more than 2+2=4.  More like 2+2+2+2+2=10.   I'm kinda thinking that the scholars need to remember again what they learned in the first grade.  And, we can't forget what Jesus said in John 16:13.  He is the best teacher, the Teacher of teachers.

Just think pardner, I said all that and no one by this post could pick up on whether I'm pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, or something else.  But, anyone can pick up on this---I most certainly believe, based on Scripture, that there is going to be another temple, in exact accord with what I perceive your position to be.  And, that's about all I have to say about that.  I won't be drawn into any arguments about it.  I only put this forth in support of your position and for the other brother's and sister's consideration...

I think it to be inescapable there are two temples. The Temple of God which is the true Temple where He dwells, the body corporate and individual, and the false Temple of cold hard stone the truth cannot penetrate. It's always the case. There is truth and lies, right and wrong, the great battle of good versus evil. 

Until Jesus returns and sets things right during His reign there will always be opposition to Him and His truth and the attempt to usurp His power and authority. It must be just by the nature of things. An ostentatious power grab in an edifice ostensibly dedicated to the Most High would send a powerful message to everyone, including God.

The Jews actually want this. By their own words their Messiah is an earthly king from the line of David[they missed that is exactly who Jesus is in one of His roles]. What better show of power could there be than to become that Messiah, build the Temple, ascend the Temple, sit in the holy place and declare godhood in the full sight of all Israel? 

It'll be quite the shocker. Not to me. I can't wait. 

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I think it's more a matter of coercion and choice, not force.  When the man of sin deceives the world through the signs he performs (Rev 13:14) and claims to be God, everyone in the world will have a choice to make . . . worship the image or be killed.  In claiming to be God, he presumes authority over those who say they worship God.  This will be a continuation of the segregation process that's currently underway.  Who will have the spiritual discernment to see through the lies?  How many believers have seen through the whole COVID / fake vaccine deception?

The body of Christ is currently in the process of being brought to the unity of the faith through the decisions we are making based on the spiritual discernment we gained from walking with Christ.

Possibly. For some.  Unity in the faith is the domain of the Spirit not organized religion, true unity I mean. I think most are so fat and happy in the western church, not to mention unaccountable for their misdeeds and false speeches, that unity in the scope we see in scripture will be unattainable until enough pressure is brought to bear.

Something will have to overcome that comfort and the fear of losing that comfort. I imagine that not even the ultimate destiny of the lake of fire will scare some enough to make the change.