ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

While I might have some questions about how that position was reached I wholeheartedly commend that statement. If that statement were fully embraced in the depth of its scripturally-informed necessity there'd a lot fewer posts in this board .  Well done.

Hi Josheb,

Now if you desire to develop that point, then go right ahead. Good to get some depth to the discussion.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You are very courteous. In Ephesians 4, in the first verses, we are told to keep the unity of the Spirit by being prepared to step back. Then the intermediate verse tell us that the Lord gave GIFTED ONES to the Church to function "UNTIL" we come to the unity of the FAITH. "THE faith" is what we believe doctrinally. And it is obvious from the word "UNTIL" that quite some time passes. We have to accept that we are all on a journey and that we cannot expect anyone to be at the same point on the journey to "The unity of the faith".

Hi AdHoc,

Now it is interesting to note that you are from Europe. Most here are from the USA with a sprinkling of Aussies and others. Good to get your thoughts too.

So on that point of us coming to the Unity of the Faith, how do you see the Lord doing this by His Holy Spirit? Obviously, individually, we are in different stages of growth however as the Body of Christ coming to the Unity of the Faith, how do you see that?

Interested in your comments. I do have some thought too, as I have pondered on this for a while.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Jaydub said:

A friend of mine gave me a analogy concerning the fullness of the gentiles

She said, picture a large rain barrel being filled a drop at a time, when the time comes at some point the barrel will be filled, but the drops keep coming. Then the barrel starts to over flow, salvation will start to flow. not only to gentiles, but to Jews as well

Hi Jaydub,

I do appreciate your friend`s picture, yet we need to remember that God`s great mercy was poured out before and will be after the Body of Christ.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

38 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

How do you read that in light of the fact the body of Christ being complete does not depend on a certain number of Gentiles?

Hi Josheb,

Interesting question. And you certainly have done your homework with referencing all those scriptures. I did look up some. And I think you may bring up some to bring up your point later.

So....I believe that God has purposes in Christ for 3 groups - the Body of Christ, for Israel, (with 2 inheritances) and the nations.

Thus we see God dealing with each to prepare rulership under Christ in all of God`s great kingdom - third heaven, universe, earth.

Interested to see where you are heading.

 

Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

Now it is interesting to note that you are from Europe. Most here are from the USA with a sprinkling of Aussies and others. Good to get your thoughts too.

So on that point of us coming to the Unity of the Faith, how do you see the Lord doing this by His Holy Spirit? Obviously, individually, we are in different stages of growth however as the Body of Christ coming to the Unity of the Faith, how do you see that?

Interested in your comments. I do have some thought too, as I have pondered on this for a while.

regards, Marilyn.

The following verses give much light. Ephesians 4:8-16

⁸ Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. ⁹ (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? ¹⁰ He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ¹¹ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; ¹² For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: ¹³ Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ¹⁴ That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; ¹⁵ But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: ¹⁶ From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The gists are only given AFTER ascension. The 12 and the 70 received these gifts for Israel BEFORE the ascension from Emanuel, Son of David. For the Church our Lord Jesus undergoes additional experiences - that of resurrection and the receiving of all authority in heave and on earth (Jn.7:39). In John 14;25-26 the teaching and the "bringing to memory" are only when the Holy Spirit is come.

The giving of the Holy Spirit is in TWO ways. (i) Inwardly for LIFE, and (ii) outwardly for POWER. It is always ONE SPIRIT, but He is applies Himself two ways. Theologians call this; 

The ESSENTIAL Spirit, which imparts the divine Life of Christ as the ESSENCE of the believer. This Spirit as ESSENCE enables the Believer to start as journey to be transformed into the image and likeness of Christ (see Romans 8). The Spirit as the LIFE-giving Spirit was given on resurrection day (Jn.20:22).

The ECONOMICAL Spirit, which gives POWER to Christians to execute God's ECONOMY. The Greek word used for God's purpose is "oikonomia", from which we get "economy" or "household management". The connotation of the Greek is of a mother working on the kitchen to prepare a meal for the family. The ESSENTIAL Spirit is given OUTWARDLY like a uniform. Thus we are IMMERSED, or FURBISHED with this aspect of the Holy Spirit. The ESSENTIAL Spirit does not need a rebirth to operate. It is this Spirit who inspired the prophets, empowered Samson and even made a donkey talk in the case of Balaam.

Five Gifts are mentioned here because the passage is describing GROWTH IN LIFE - not Church Government. The goal is the MATURITY of the saint in what he/she believes. When government is included like Romans and 1st Corinthians 12-14, the other gifts are also mentioned. (i) The Apostle receives the written Word from God and writes it down. (ii) The prophets speaks the instant Word of God - that speaking that God wants to impart to that particular Assembly. (iii) The Evangelist speaks to bring in material for the Church. (iv) The Pastor creates an atmosphere where God's Word is not hindered. Unlike today where we call a leader "Pastor", the true Biblical pastor is a "shepherd" who steers the Lord's sheep to pastures, wards off the enemy and binds wounds. (v) The Teacher studies what the Apostle has written, rightly cuts it and dispenses it to the Assembly.

The source is Christ - the HEAD. He supplies each member from heaven via the holy Spirit. Then those who have been supplied make sure that the supply reaches the next Christian in the same Local Assembly. The God initiates the plan, Christ realizes what God has planned, and the Holy Spirit applies it to each member. The members in turn make sure their portion is available to every other member of the Local Assembly. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by AdHoc

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The following verses give much light. Ephesians 4:8-16

⁸ Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. ⁹ (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? ¹⁰ He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) ¹¹ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; ¹² For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: ¹³ Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ¹⁴ That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; ¹⁵ But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: ¹⁶ From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The gists are only given AFTER ascension. The 12 and the 70 received these gifts for Israel BEFORE the ascension from Emanuel, Son of David. For the Church our Lord Jesus undergoes additional experiences - that of resurrection and the receiving of all authority in heave and on earth (Jn.7:39). In John 14;25-26 the teaching and the "bringing to memory" are only when the Holy Spirit is come.

The giving of the Holy Spirit is in TWO ways. (i) Inwardly for LIFE, and (ii) outwardly for POWER. It is always ONE SPIRIT, but He is applies Himself two ways. Theologians call this; 

The ESSENTIAL Spirit, which imparts the divine Life of Christ as the ESSENCE of the believer. This Spirit as ESSENCE enables the Believer to start as journey to be transformed into the image and likeness of Christ (see Romans 8). The Spirit as the LIFE-giving Spirit was given on resurrection day (Jn.20:22).

The ECONOMICAL Spirit, which gives POWER to Christians to execute God's ECONOMY. The Greek word used for God's purpose is "oikonomia", from which we get "economy" or "household management". The connotation of the Greek is of a mother working on the kitchen to prepare a meal for the family. The ESSENTIAL Spirit is given OUTWARDLY like a uniform. Thus we are IMMERSED, or FURBISHED with this aspect of the Holy Spirit. The ESSENTIAL Spirit does not need a rebirth to operate. It is this Spirit who inspired the prophets, empowered Samson and even made a donkey talk in the case of Balaam.

Five Gifts are mentioned here because the passage is describing GROWTH IN LIFE - not Church Government. The goal is the MATURITY of the saint in what he/she believes. When government is included like Romans and 1st Corinthians 12-14, the other gifts are also mentioned. (i) The Apostle receives the written Word from God and writes it down. (ii) The prophets speaks the instant Word of God - that speaking that God wants to impart to that particular Assembly. (iii) The Evangelist speaks to bring in material for the Church. (iv) The Pastor creates an atmosphere where God's Word is not hindered. Unlike today where we call a leader "Pastor", the true Biblical pastor is a "shepherd" who steers the Lord's sheep to pastures, wards off the enemy and binds wounds. (v) The Teacher studies what the Apostle has written, rightly cuts it and dispenses it to the Assembly.

The source is Christ - the HEAD. He supplies each member from heaven via the holy Spirit. Then those who have been supplied make sure that the supply reaches the next Christian in the same Local Assembly. The God initiates the plan, Christ realizes what God has planned, and the Holy Spirit applies it to each member. The members in turn make sure their portion is available to every other member of the Local Assembly. 

Hi Adhoc,

Some very good points there. Much appreciated.

Now what truths do you see has and will bring the whole Body of Christ to the unity of faith?

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

I am unaware that God has made two into three. Can you show me where that is written and, if possible, provide me with as plain a scripture as possible? 

Thx

 

 

.

Hi Josheb,

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God..` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

God clearly delineates three people groups there. Then looking in all of God`s word we see the different inheritances for them.

As to Israel being the `root` of the Olive tree in Rom. 11: 11 - 26, when we have a closer look we actually realise that it is the Lord. The `root` is holy, nourishes us and supports us, (v. 16 - 18), and Israel certainly cannot do that.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

One people in Christ. One people outside of Christ. God's purpose for those in Christ is an eternal inheritance of incorruption and immortality. God's purpose for those outside of Christ is an eternal inheritance of torturous destruction. But as far as Israel and the fullness of the Gentiles in Romans 11 that was a set of conditions existing at that present time, not the 21st century. 

 

Hi Josheb,

Yes I think I gave the wrong impression. Sorry. Perhaps I should have said `because of Christ` all of God`s purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations, will be accomplished.

The Body of Christ`s inheritance is in the third heaven with Christ on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

The Old Testament saints were promised the city, which comes down out of heaven from God. (Heb. 11: 16,  Rev. 21: 2)

Israel was promised that they would rule the nations of the world. ( Dan. 7: 26 & 27,  Rev. 21: 24)

Clearly God has purposes for 3 people groups, and all under Christ`s rule.

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Adhoc,

Some very good points there. Much appreciated.

Now what truths do you see has and will bring the whole Body of Christ to the unity of faith?

Marilyn.

That's a difficult question. The Unity of the faith is when Christians in one Local Assembly believe the same thing. What I can do is, if you'll allow, to reverse the question and give several of the most important truths that cause problems. And again, while I'm a firm believer in taking a step back to maintain the unity of the Spirit, there comes a time when it is humanly intolerable to sit and listen to patently false doctrines. The reason is that one's doctrine decides one's behavior. So after spending the first three Chapters of 1st Corinthians telling us that any division over doctrine is a work of the flesh, Paul goes on to say in 1st Corinthians 11:18-19;

¹⁸ For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. ¹⁹ For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Our Lord always tests His Church, and this test can go both ways.

Case 1. The Elder(s) or Teacher(s) teach the correct doctrine. But the Assembly will not have it. After a while, somebody who is charismatic but holds the wrong doctrine will raise up and be able, by what ever means, to put away the correct Teacher(s). This what happened to the prophets. Israel killed her prophets and God allowed it. Later His wrath descended on Israel for this, and still will.

Case 2. Two Teachers teach different things. After a while, one of them will be uncomfortable (for whatever reason) and leave. The other one will prevail by the grace of God.

Returning to your question, I have found the most divisive doctrine to be those concerning the Triune God and the Person of Christ. This is understandable. Both are mysteries and both quickly lead even the most gifted minds outside of their limits. God is that great. Should we be surprised when He reveals something of Himself and our puny intellects cannot cope? This is an area where humility is the best answer. Do I fully understand the Triune God? No! Do I believe that He is both Three and One? Yes! But that is not logical my opponents will say. My answer is yes. I am taxed beyond my human intellect but I believe what God has revealed.

The most damaging doctrine I believe is the doctrine that Christians die and go to heaven - with the rest of mankind consigned to the hell. It (i) demeans the "ALL"-mighty by saying that He was not able to fulfill His purposes (see Genesis 1:26-28). (ii) It demeans God's Character by saying that people who could not possibly have hear the gospel are punished by Him. (iii) It demeans God by saying that Satan is greater than God. (iv) It causes a complacency among Christians, leading to abominable behavior. (v) It makes liars of the prophets who predicted Israel's recovery DESPITE UNBELIEF. (vi) This in turn dishonors God Who made Abraham's Covenant immutable twice over (Heb.6:17-18). (vii) It cause Christians to be dishonest with the Bible because they have to force things to say what they don't say. (viii) It demeans Christ's position of HEIR to all things. (ix) It makes God a liar because the Kingdom of Heaven, when it is set up on earth, is His REWARD to both Christ and the Overcoming saints.

The second most damaging doctrine is a return by a born again Christian to the Law of Moses. The letter to the Galatians contains some of the hardest language of any New Testament book. And there is a reason why. God has approved Christ's Work as complete and Approved for salvation. Any man who has embraced Jesus Christ, and then returns to the Law to justify himself is saying that the Lord Jesus' Work was not enough. There are few things that can anger the Father more than insulting His Son's Work.

But, after naming some of the worst things, I've been a Christian for 44 years, and I've seen a lot of things. I've seen good upright brothers and sisters fall apart over a simple comment - never mind a mind-taxing doctrine. This forum, and all the others, are full of saints who take offense over nothing. Where is the Lord's teaching about turning the other cheek? And because I'm just a man, and but dust, let me watch out for myself in this matter.

Edited November 18, 2021 by AdHoc

[Marilyn C]

31 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

That's a difficult question. The Unity of the faith is when Christians in one Local Assembly believe the same thing. What I can do is, if you'll allow, to reverse the question and give several of the most important truths that cause problems. And again, while I'm a firm believer in taking a step back to maintain the unity of the Spirit, there comes a time when it is humanly intolerable to sit and listen to patently false doctrines. The reason is that one's doctrine decides one's behavior. So after spending the first three Chapters of 1st Corinthians telling us that any division over doctrine is a work of the flesh, Paul goes on to say in 1st Corinthians 11:18-19;

¹⁸ For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. ¹⁹ For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Our Lord always tests His Church, and this test can go both ways.

Case 1. The Elder(s) or Teacher(s) teach the correct doctrine. But the Assembly will not have it. After a while, somebody who is charismatic but holds the wrong doctrine will raise up and be able, by what ever means, to put away the correct Teacher(s). This what happened to the prophets. Israel killed her prophets and God allowed it. Later His wrath descended on Israel for this, and still will.

Case 2. Two Teachers teach different things. After a while, one of them will be uncomfortable (for whatever reason) and leave. The other one will prevail by the grace of God.

Returning to your question, I have found the most divisive doctrine to be those concerning the Triune God and the Person of Christ. This is understandable. Both are mysteries and both quickly lead even the most gifted minds outside of their limits. God is that great. Should we be surprised when He reveals something of Himself and our puny intellects cannot cope? This is an area where humility is the best answer. Do I fully understand the Triune God? No! Do I believe that He is both Three and One? Yes! But that is not logical my opponents will say. My answer is yes. I am taxed beyond my human intellect but I believe what God has revealed.

The most damaging doctrine I believe is the doctrine that Christians die and go to heaven - with the rest of mankind consigned to the hell. It (i) demeans the "ALL"-mighty by saying that He was not able to fulfill His purposes (see Genesis 1:26-28). (ii) It demeans God's Character by saying that people who could not possibly have hear the gospel are punished by Him. (iii) It demeans God by saying that Satan is greater than God. (iv) It causes a complacency among Christians, leading to abominable behavior. (v) It makes liars of the prophets who predicted Israel's recovery DESPITE UNBELIEF. (vi) This in turn dishonors God Who made Abraham's Covenant immutable twice over (Heb.6:17-18). (vii) It cause Christians to be dishonest with the Bible because they have to force things to say what they don't say. (viii) It demeans Christ's position of HEIR to all things. (ix) It makes God a liar because the Kingdom of Heaven, when it is set up on earth, is His REWARD to both Christ and the Overcoming saints.

The second most damaging doctrine is a return by a born again Christian to the Law of Moses. The letter to the Galatians contains some of the hardest language of any New Testament book. And there is a reason why. God has approved Christ's Work as complete and Approved for salvation. Any man who has embraced Jesus Christ, and then returns to the Law to justify himself is saying that the Lord Jesus' Work was not enough. There are few things that can anger the Father more than insulting His Son's Work.

But, after naming some of the worst things, I've a Christian for 44 years, and I've seen a lot of things. I've seen good upright brothers and sisters fall apart over a simple comment - never mind a mind-taxing doctrine. This forum, and all the others, are full of saints who take offense over nothing. Where is the Lord's teaching about turning the other cheek? And because I'm just a man, and but dust, let me watch out for myself in this matter.

King James Version (WORDsearch Edition). (n.d.). (1 Co 11:18–19). WORDsearch.

Hi AdHoc,

It is so, so refreshing talking to you bro. I so agree with most of what you say, with a hearty `Amen.` Well put I might add.

So let me put my question regarding the `unity of Faith,` another way. We know that the Apostle Paul taught the whole counsel of God, but said that after he was gone savage wolves would come in and also come up from among the believers. And through out the many succeeding centuries we can see that bit by bit the main truths were `lost.` (Obviously some believers held true, but the outward form of Christendom became `religious.`)

Then at the reformation and from then on we see that great truths were clarified to the Body of Christ, starting with - salvation by faith in Christ. 

Can you now think of other great truths the Holy Spirit has guided the believers in over the years till we today, I would say have all the counsel of God concerning Christ, His character and His purposes?

 What other great truths....?

Also would like to pick up on your comment regarding our reward. Can you give further detail with scripture please?

Marilyn.