ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

So the reader understands:

I was asked a question that was answered by the one making the inquiry in the same post in which it was asked. I have not been provided with any reconciliation of the dispersion the inquirer broached with the destruction promised in the very same text. Neither has the matter of Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and its relevance to Christian eschatology been resolved.

You started a line of inquiry you weren't willing to follow through to its end. 

So be it. 

 

As far as the op goes, the "fullness of the Gentiles" and the "remnant" of Israel spoken of in Romans 9-11 are plainly stated by Paul to occur "at the present time." They are, therefore, not future to us in the 21st century. They were occurring at the time present to Paul's writing that epistle. Were Deuteronomy 30:1-5 to have any relevance to the fullness of the gentiles it too would be a condition relevant to Paul's statement "at the present time," but the fact is the Deuteronomy text promises destruction to those who do not keep the Law and abide by the covenant that was promised Abraham. The promise of land was fulfilled in Joshua 21:45. The promise to Abraham of a seed has also been fulfilled; Jesus is it. God promised the Deuteronomy 30 crowd blessing is they obeyed and curses if they did not. 

They did not. 

The divorce-hating God divorced Israel, and the covenant-making God declared Israel covenant breakers and called a new people His own, grafting them into an already-existing tree that is Israel. 

Good. I'll allow you the last word. The postings and their content are there for all to see. 

Nevertheless, go well brother. We'll no doubt meet again on another subject.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Every human has its own God-given Adamic spirit. When that spirit becomes its own god, its becomes cut off from God: this is spiritual death. When Adam and Eve chose to follow the dictates of their own spirits, they fell out of the Presence, becoming spiritually dead. As did Satan, when he chose to follow after his own will.

We find this principle in 1 John 2:16 -- "For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh ["good for food"], the lust of the eyes ["pleasant to the eyes"], and the pride of life ["desirable to make one intelligent"] —is not of the Father but is of the world."

Flesh [food], soul [eyes], spirit [pride]. All fell out of the Presence. To be separated from the Presence brings flesh/soul/spirit death.

I'm am aware of this broadly circulated myth. Wouldn't it be much simpler if you just quoted the scriptures that say a spirit can die, and then given two or three examples?

I have a scripture that says spirits cannot die. In Psalm 104:4 we learn that angels are spirits. 

⁴ Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

And in Luke 20:36 our Lord says that angels cannot die any more than a man in resurrection. The word "for" gives the reason why those in resurrection cannot die. They are EQUAL to angels which cannot die. 

³⁶ Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 

Come brother. the wages of "sin" is death - physical death. And the solution to physical death is resurrection (1st Cor.15:22). All men IN Adam DIE, and a ALL men are made alive IN Christ. That is, the sin-nature causes physical death - not spiritual death. 1st Corinthians 15 deals with "with what BODY do they come" (v.35) In Romans 7 it is not "this 'spirit' of death", but "this BODY of death" in which "sin dwelleth".

[AdHoc]

25 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Do angels die in the fiery lake of Revelation? 

Yes. But their death is "The Second Death". In Matthew 10:28 the Lord alluded to those who can kill the body, but that we should fear Him Who can kill the body AND the soul IN GEHENNA. The Lake of Fire is used interchangeably with "The Second Death", which in turn is used interchangeably with "destruction". And the Greek word for "destruction", or "perdition" means "intense lack of well-being". Thus, the second death is the death of the soul. The death of the soul is exquisite lack of well-being. While physical death is a cessation of senses, the death of the soul is the opposite. It is extraordinary sense of no well-being. Our Lord cried out in Gethsemane; 

"My SOUL is sorrowful unto death!"

He experienced all the anquish of what lay before Him. The Lake of Fire is a term to allude to being overflowed, not with water, but fire. Our Lord uses "Gehenna" to depict it. Gehenna comes from the Valley of Hinnom, the valley on the south side of Jerusalem where (i) the trash of the city was burned, and (ii) where the Canaanites, and later, Israel, caused their children to pass through fire for the demon-god Molech.

Isaiah, and later Mark, describe it as "their (personal) worm will not  die" and "their (personal) fire will not be quenched". Most probably worms are to show the suffering of the flesh (since Herod was eaten by worms), and "fire" is to depict the suffering of the soul. We can survive "fiery trials" but they tax us to the limit.

Edited November 22, 2021 by AdHoc

[Marilyn C]

While a lot of these side topics are interesting I think they need to be on another thread.

So perhaps we can turn again to the OP, as to what the Lord, the Head of the Body is doing to bring it to maturity.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then spirits can die. 

 

I am in full agreement with you regarding the nonsense about adamic spirits that become gods . I also think correlations between the three lusts and the tripartite man is nonsense. But in a text-based medium words matter. Spirits can and will die. Anything uncreated can be created; only God is eternal and immutable. Luke 20:36 does not conflict with Revelation 20:14. If death is not dead then neither is anything else thrown in the fiery lake and if death is not dead then death remains in eternity. 

 

Besides, I don't think the other poster was saying a person's spirit is literally dead; only that it was dead in sin, as Paul puts it, or as the other poster put it, "cut off from God". That's what most people mean when they say "spiritually death". @WilliamL, perhaps you mean they become their own idols, not gods in any literal sense. 

I think Marilyn C has a point. We've (I've) derailed her thread. If you'd like to start a new thread on spiritual death, I'll be interested to see your treatise. 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

While a lot of these side topics are interesting I think they need to be on another thread.

So perhaps we can turn again to the OP, as to what the Lord, the Head of the Body is doing to bring it to maturity.

You're quite right. I apologize.

[AdHoc]

46 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I do not use the phrase. I use "dead in transgression" or "transgressional death." The former is something I can actually find stated in scripture; "spiritual death" is not. I don't think it requires a lengthy or separate discussion. 

 

As far as the op goes, my position has been posted: the fullness of the Gentiles is something said to be occurring at the time Paul was writing his letter. It's not a 21st century phenomenon. Therefore, the eschatological idea that a certain number of Gentiles must be accumulated before the body of Christ is complete is misguided. Although we come to this conclusion by different avenues I am in agreement with the op on that point. 

And I would venture to say that one means of understanding the "completeness" of the body of Christ would be Ephesians 4 but I also thing the term should be defined so everyone is in agreement about what is being discussed. Even though Colossians 2:10 says each of us has been made complete in Christ, I personally would not say the body of Christ is complete on this side of the grave because until its members are incorruptible and immortal it is not complete. 

 

 

.

I have nothing to add to my very first posting halfway down page 1 of postings.

I am in agreement that the Church is not completed by numbers. It is complete by its content - Ephesians 4:13.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

As far as the op goes, my position has been posted: the fullness of the Gentiles is something said to be occurring at the time Paul was writing his letter. It's not a 21st century phenomenon. Therefore, the eschatological idea that a certain number of Gentiles must be accumulated before the body of Christ is complete is misguided. Although we come to this conclusion by different avenues I am in agreement with the op on that point. 

And I would venture to say that one means of understanding the "completeness" of the body of Christ would be Ephesians 4 but I also thing the term should be defined so everyone is in agreement about what is being discussed. Even though Colossians 2:10 says each of us has been made complete in Christ, I personally would not say the body of Christ is complete on this side of the grave because until its members are incorruptible and immortal it is not complete. 

 

Hi Josheb,

I glad you have pointed out (correctly I believe) the two aspects -individual maturity in Christ and the whole Body coming to maturity. Though you see that that will happen after we are in glory. (If I read you right.)

However let us look at the scripture again - The 5 fold ministries are given -

`till we all come to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness  of Christ..` (Eph. 4: 13) 

So the `unity of Faith...` Put that with what the Lord said in John 16: 13, `the Spirit of truth...He will guide you into all truth..` 

We know that the `unity of the Spirit,` is by the Spirit and for us to `keep` that by our attitude otherwise we disqualify ourselves. Then we read of this `unity of the faith.` I think people see that as everyone believing everything the same. And we know that is not possible individually as some are new believers and some are more mature in their understanding and belief.  It refers to a corporate belief, I believe, in what the Holy Spirit has revealed over the centuries. 

These truths of Christ have come across the Body of Christ and is bringing us all to the unity of the faith - salvation through Christ, adult baptism, holy living, infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the 5 five ministries to build up the Body of Christ, and finally the eternal purposes of God through Christ - for the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations.

Some people have revelation of all those truths. Some hold fast to one or more of them. Thus I believe that the Lord the Head of His Body has by His Spirit guided His Body into ALL the truth of Himself and His purposes. Those who eagerly wait for Him and see heaven as their inheritance (not earthly) will go to be with the Lord.

That is the final dividing, the heart attitude and the truth/s they stand for.

What are your thoughts on this?

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I have nothing to add to my very first posting halfway down page 1 of postings.

I am in agreement that the Church is not completed by numbers. It is complete by its content - Ephesians 4:13.

Hi AdHoc,

I would appreciate your thoughts too on what I have outlined to Josheb.

regards, Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

44 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Point of clarification: five "ministries" are listed but that list is not exhaustive. There are many more "offices" or "ministries" than those five. To limit what Christ has provided to the body in the way of leadership to those five is to woefully misconstrue both the text of Ephesians for and the whole of scripture. 

 

 

.

Hi Josheb,

Would you like to name those other `offices or ministries?` 

Marilyn.