AdHoc - Regarding, "There is NO rapture for the Jews.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Up to the Abomination of Desolation we have "men's wrath against Christians". From the Abomination of Desolation. God vents His wrath against men.

Nothing in Matt. 24:4-31 speaks of God's wrath. Neither does anything in Rev. 6 up to the very last verse, after the 6th seal's cataclysms (= Matt. 24:29) have taken place.

The Great Tribulation will be the wrath and chaos of Satan and his dupes, not God.

[The Light]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I'll give you two out of three.   Those being Matt. 24 and Rev. 6, which both foretell the same order of events.

With respect to the harvest of Rev. 14, however, this is an entirely different, post-rapture animal. Why? because there is a big difference between the firstfruits and the harvest.

 

Agreed, there is a big difference between first fruits and the harvest. That said, the Word proves my point.

Here are the first fruits of the harvest.

Rev 14

 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here is the harvest.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The first fruits are 12,000 from each tribe. Therefore, the harvest will be the 12 tribes across the earth. We also note at this harvest the wicked are cast into the wrath of God.

Exact same thing happens in Rev 6 and 7.

Here is the harvest in Rev 7

Rev 7

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here is what happens when Jesus comes in Rev 6 and the wicked are cast into the wrath of God.

Rev 6 

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I've already shown you where the Great Tribulation is in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14. How many Great Tribulations are there? One. 

The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the same coming of Jesus in Rev 6, is the same coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

Edited December 3, 2021 by The Light

[The Light]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In your first section you maintain that Israelites, because they are sealed, are saved. You give an example then of a Church. But you failed to show that;

1. Israel stay in unbelief till the end of the age - how could they be saved. One is not saved by being sealed. One is saved through FAITH
2. The Church at Ephesus is first saved THEN sealed.
3. The Isralites were sealed so that the disaters that were to come upon men would not hurt them (Rev.9:4)
4. The saints at Ephesus were sealed for resurrection
5. In both cases sealed had nothing to do with salvation

 

1. The end of the age is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Matt 24

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Israel does not stay in unbelief until the end of the age. Only part of Israel stays in blindness, they are the those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection. The other part of Israel, (the twelve tribes across the earth who are the seed of the woman) have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Also, of course one is saved through faith. And when they are saved, they are sealed. The 144,000 that are sealed are the first fruits of the second harvest. The Church is already in heaven and that is when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

2. I agree, and it doesn't change the facts. Those that are sealed, believed. Read the Word.

Eph 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

3. Those 144,000 are already in heaven and DO NOT go through the wrath of God. I've showed you, several times, that the tribulation is OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. We can see the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14. There is only one Great Tribulation. And we can see it is over BEFORE the wrath begins.

4. OK

5. I'll show you again. They believed and are sealed.

Eph 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[The Light]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your second section is fully based on the belief that the Great Tribulation is different from God's wrath. The word "wrath" is used 13 times in Revelation. TEN of these thirteen say that what was happening was GOD'S WRATH. I propose that what happened in Revelation is God's wrath. Added to this, God's wrath is predicted in Romans 1:18. It is issued because of ungodliness. What the Nations have done from the Abomination of Desolation is ungodliness. Up to the Abomination of Desolation we have "men's wrath against Christians". From the Abomination of Desolation. God vents His wrath against men.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Read what it says. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We know what days they are talking about because we can see the Great Tribulation in Matt 24.

Matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

 

[AdHoc]

50 minutes ago, The Light said:

1. The end of the age is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Matt 24

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Israel does not stay in unbelief until the end of the age. Only part of Israel stays in blindness, they are the those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection. The other part of Israel, (the twelve tribes across the earth who are the seed of the woman) have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Also, of course one is saved through faith. And when they are saved, they are sealed. The 144,000 that are sealed are the first fruits of the second harvest. The Church is already in heaven and that is when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

2. I agree, and it doesn't change the facts. Those that are sealed, believed. Read the Word.

Eph 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

3. Those 144,000 are already in heaven and DO NOT go through the wrath of God. I've showed you, several times, that the tribulation is OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. We can see the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14. There is only one Great Tribulation. And we can see it is over BEFORE the wrath begins.

4. OK

5. I'll show you again. They believed and are sealed.

Eph 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You did not address my objection. The seal of the 144,000 is a mark on their bodies so that the things that happen in the Great Tribulation don't hurt them (Rev.9:4). The Ephesians, and you and I have the Holy Spirit dwelling IN us. He is not only God, but the divine and eternal life and nature of God. He is also given as a "SEAL" to guarantee RESURRECTION. The two are totally different. 

Where does it say that "part" of Israel believes? And according 2nd Cor 5:17 when an Israelite believes he CEASES to be an Israelite. He is a NEW CREATURE and the old has passed away. He cannot be an Israelite any more. Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 clearly say that there is NO JEW in the New Man. At conversion to faith in Christ an Israelite is a "NEW CREATURE". His ethnicity disappears.

Israel do not believe until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That is, Armageddon. Israel are Lke Thomas. They believe when they SEE. According to Hebrews 11:1 this is NOT faith.

[AdHoc]

57 minutes ago, The Light said:

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Read what it says. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We know what days they are talking about because we can see the Great Tribulation in Matt 24.

Matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

You have stressed Matthew 24:29 as the wrath of God. Where does it say so. It says the powers of HEAVEN are shaken, not earth. 

The powers of heaven are the principalities. They are shaken - not the earth. The Tribulation is OVER.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have stressed Matthew 24:29 as the wrath of God. Where does it say so. It says the powers of HEAVEN are shaken, not earth. 

The powers of heaven are the principalities. They are shaken - not the earth. The Tribulation is OVER.

No. You are not getting it. I am not saying that Matthew 24:29 is the wrath of God. I am stressing that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Immediately after the tribulation, Jesus comes. He is not coming to set up His kingdom on earth, He is coming for a rapture, or harvest. THEN the world is cast into the wrath of God.

 

[AdHoc]

39 minutes ago, The Light said:

No. You are not getting it. I am not saying that Matthew 24:29 is the wrath of God. I am stressing that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Immediately after the tribulation, Jesus comes. He is not coming to set up His kingdom on earth, He is coming for a rapture, or harvest. THEN the world is cast into the wrath of God.

 

OK. I see your approach. We'll just have to agree that we disagree.

I will give you brief summary of how I see the sequence of events.

The Lord is finished taking a people for His name - the Church. He has offered His Son Jesus as Savior for 2,000 years and the time of Gentile rule of the earth is over. Our Lord Jesus, Who has administered things in heaven and on earth in favor of the Church, is crowned and given His own throne - not for heaven, but for earth. He starts His jounrey from heaven to earth, but before He does so, He starts the wrath of God on men who have rejected God, rejected Jesus and rejected the disciples of Jesus.

This journey will take the Lord Jesus from heaven to Mount Olives at Jerusalem. On the way, in the clouds, He pauses and the Church is Raptured to Him IN THE CLOUDS. This is where He is as a THIEF. He comes stealthily in the darkest hour and takes something precious. He judges the Church in the clouds. Meanwhile, on earth the Seals are doing their work. The earth is plagued first by natural disasters and then by supernatural disasters. Israel is at the center of this troubled time, so it is called Jacob's Trouble. But the Gentiles have committed iniquity after iniquity and so for them this tie is called "The Great Tribulation". 

Having judged the Church in the clouds and the allotted time of 3½ years of Great Tribulation over, our Lord bursts through the clouds as LIGHTENING, which is seen from east to west. He touches down on Mt. Olives and proceeds to Armageddon where He has gathered the armies of the Gentiles. He fights a very bloody battle there and destroys, in one move, the military and political might of the Gentiles. He then commands His angels to gather Israel from their dispersion to the four winds.

Having set up His throne on earth, the Lord gathers the Gentiles who survived the Great Tribulation and judges them for how they treated Christians and Jews during the Great Tribulation. Having done this, our Lord Jesus establishes His throne in Jerusalem as Son of David ruling over Israel, and as King of kings ruling over the whole earth.

• This sequence allows only ONE COMING
• This sequence allows for our Lord to be the THIEF as He raptures the Church
• This sequence allows for out Lord to burst out of the clouds like LIGHTENING over Jerusalem
• This sequence allows for 3½ years of GREAT TRIBULATION, which is the WRATH of God on ungodliness
• This sequence ends with our LORD'S KINGDOM ON EARTH and Him living in Jerusalem
• This sequence allows for Christ to judge the Church first, then Israel and then the living of the Nations
• This sequence allows for the beginning of Christ's everlasting Kingdom ON EARTH.
• This sequence covers every major scripture concerning the end of the age and the "revealing" of Jesus from heaven. 

Go well brother.

[choir loft]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:46 AM, The Light said:

AdHoc,

I would like to get some clarification for this statement that you made in another thread:

"It is for those "who SEE" it and must flee. That is, those who live in and around Jerusalem. The whole context is about things Jewish, and Christ on appears to Israel AFTER the Great Tribulation - or Jacob's Trouble. There is NO Rapture for the Jews.

I agree with most of the things that I see you have posted, regarding the rapture of the Church and other events. Your posts are well supported with scripture and well thought out. But as to the statement that there is NO Rapture for the Jews, I think it is incorrect. 

Regarding these verses in Matthew, do you see this as the time that Jesus returns with His armies from heaven and puts his feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up his kingdom on earth? If not, what do you think is happening?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NO RAPTURE FOR THE JEWS......

I am alarmed at the direction this subject is taking among people who otherwise consider themselves good people.  If there were a greater anti-Semitic remark published by Joseph Goebbels himself I'd be hard pressed to find it. 

Why do you hate Jews so much?  

What have they done to you and your family?  

Most likely you'd respond that they've done nothing and that you have no ulterior motive for publishing such HATEFUL LANGUAGE.  Yet you espouse a doctrine of demons that teaches a 2nd holocaust - death to Jews during the Tribulation because they won't join your church.  

I cannot think of a more disgusting perversion of God's inspired Word than such purely demonic filth.  (1 Tim 4:1 & 1 Corinthians 10:21)

RAPTURE is false doctrine initially created by Francisco Ribera, a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest.  It was published along with a lot of other rubbish in a work entitled FUTURISM.   It was intended to counter arguments by Reformation fathers; Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, etc.  However, American Protestants embraced the lie as gospel along with all the ramifications of RCC anti-semitism it implies.  

* * * * *

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked. 

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” - Luke 17:34-37

* * * * *

The above section of Luke's gospel is often quoted by rapture believers who think it promises a cruise to the clouds and dinner with the divine.  They conveniently ignore the implications of the last line.  THOSE WHO ARE REMOVED don't go to heaven with Jesus.  They go to the grave, to the place of the unregenerate dead, to the place of the damned.  

Such people will obviously fuss and claim the last line is out of context (of their beliefs) and that it means something it doesn't.  These deliberately ignorant types will completely ignore the obvious intent of Jesus' words.

The obvious being that no righteous Jew would be caught DEAD along with THEM.  Neither would Our Lord be in the same place.  They would be condemned to be apart from Christ - permanently.  They would be escorted to their final demise BY DEMONS not angels.

I doubt anyone will accept this and that most will continue their closeted hatred of Jews - disregarding any and all efforts to clarify scripture and shine a light upon anti-Semitism where it flourishes in our churches.

My appeal here is to clarity of thought and innocence of the heart.  Abandon false doctrines that teach unreasoning hatred of Jews.  Why would any Jew read this drivel and come to your house of worship?  

Why would any clear minded person do so?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by choir loft

[The Light]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

OK. I see your approach. We'll just have to agree that we disagree.

I will give you brief summary of how I see the sequence of events.

The Lord is finished taking a people for His name - the Church. He has offered His Son Jesus as Savior for 2,000 years and the time of Gentile rule of the earth is over. Our Lord Jesus, Who has administered things in heaven and on earth in favor of the Church, is crowned and given His own throne - not for heaven, but for earth. He starts His jounrey from heaven to earth, but before He does so, He starts the wrath of God on men who have rejected God, rejected Jesus and rejected the disciples of Jesus.

This journey will take the Lord Jesus from heaven to Mount Olives at Jerusalem. On the way, in the clouds, He pauses and the Church is Raptured to Him IN THE CLOUDS. This is where He is as a THIEF. He comes stealthily in the darkest hour and takes something precious. He judges the Church in the clouds. Meanwhile, on earth the Seals are doing their work. The earth is plagued first by natural disasters and then by supernatural disasters. Israel is at the center of this troubled time, so it is called Jacob's Trouble. But the Gentiles have committed iniquity after iniquity and so for them this tie is called "The Great Tribulation". 

Having judged the Church in the clouds and the allotted time of 3½ years of Great Tribulation over, our Lord bursts through the clouds as LIGHTENING, which is seen from east to west. He touches down on Mt. Olives and proceeds to Armageddon where He has gathered the armies of the Gentiles. He fights a very bloody battle there and destroys, in one move, the military and political might of the Gentiles. He then commands His angels to gather Israel from their dispersion to the four winds.

Having set up His throne on earth, the Lord gathers the Gentiles who survived the Great Tribulation and judges them for how they treated Christians and Jews during the Great Tribulation. Having done this, our Lord Jesus establishes His throne in Jerusalem as Son of David ruling over Israel, and as King of kings ruling over the whole earth.

• This sequence allows only ONE COMING

And yet there are three. The Church is in heaven in Rev 5 because they were raptured in the pretribulation rapture. Are you just going to ignore this fact? What are you going to do with those kings and priests?

The twelve tribes across the earth are in heaven after the gathering from heaven and earth and are part of the great multitude in Rev 7. That is also a coming of Jesus IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. 

Then Jesus returns from heaven with His armies at the conclusion of the wrath of God. Those that flee from the nation of Israel to a place of protection will be on earth during God wrath.

Three comings, that can seen in the scripture.

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence allows for our Lord to be the THIEF as He raptures the Church

So does the sequence where the Church is seen in heaven as kings and priests in Rev 5. This occurs before the 70th week. The fullness of the Gentiles must happen before God deals with the Jews.

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence allows for out Lord to burst out of the clouds like LIGHTENING over Jerusalem

All sequences allow this.

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence allows for 3½ years of GREAT TRIBULATION, which is the WRATH of God on ungodliness

As has been proven with scripture multiple times. The Great tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. I know there are many that think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming where Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth, but the coming of Jesus clearly occurs at the 6th seal...BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence ends with our LORD'S KINGDOM ON EARTH and Him living in Jerusalem

All sequences allow this

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence allows for Christ to judge the Church first, then Israel and then the living of the Nations

And yet you do not align your sequence to scripture.

The Church is in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins. The tribulation occurs during the 70th week of Daniel. See Rev 5.

The twelve tribes across the earth are raptured to heaven before the wrath of God at the 6th seal. They become believers and accept Christ after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. See Rev 6.

Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection remain on earth during the wrath of God.

 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence allows for the beginning of Christ's everlasting Kingdom ON EARTH.

As do all sequences. Jesus returns to earth FROM HEAVEN with his armies after the wedding supper. 

Rev 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

• This sequence covers every major scripture concerning the end of the age and the "revealing" of Jesus from heaven. 

Go well brother.

It does not line up with scripture brother. You have the tribulation occurring during the wrath of God. You also have God's people appointed to wrath which is unscriptural.

1 Thes 5

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Make it a good day Brother.