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AdHoc - Regarding, "There is NO rapture for the Jews.


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Posted
35 minutes ago, The Light said:

And yet there are three. The Church is in heaven in Rev 5 because they were raptured in the pretribulation rapture. Are you just going to ignore this fact? What are you going to do with those kings and priests?

The twelve tribes across the earth are in heaven after the gathering from heaven and earth and are part of the great multitude in Rev 7. That is also a coming of Jesus IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. 

Then Jesus returns from heaven with His armies at the conclusion of the wrath of God. Those that flee from the nation of Israel to a place of protection will be on earth during God wrath.

Three comings, that can seen in the scripture.

So does the sequence where the Church is seen in heaven as kings and priests in Rev 5. This occurs before the 70th week. The fullness of the Gentiles must happen before God deals with the Jews.

All sequences allow this.

As has been proven with scripture multiple times. The Great tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. I know there are many that think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming where Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth, but the coming of Jesus clearly occurs at the 6th seal...BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

All sequences allow this

And yet you do not align your sequence to scripture.

The Church is in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins. The tribulation occurs during the 70th week of Daniel. See Rev 5.

The twelve tribes across the earth are raptured to heaven before the wrath of God at the 6th seal. They become believers and accept Christ after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. See Rev 6.

Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection remain on earth during the wrath of God.

 

As do all sequences. Jesus returns to earth FROM HEAVEN with his armies after the wedding supper. 

Rev 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

It does not line up with scripture brother. You have the tribulation occurring during the wrath of God. You also have God's people appointed to wrath which is unscriptural.

1 Thes 5

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Make it a good day Brother.

Thank you for the reply. WE see things very differently. You emphasize scripture for everything, but posted only Revelation 5 in general and 19 in particular.

So as not to go into overload, let us just take one of your statements. Prove to me, with exhaustive scriptures, that the four living creatures, which are found in Ezekiel Chapter 1 and in Revelation Chapter 5 are the Church. If you cannot, I will be satisfied with proof, with exhaustive and plain scriptures, that the 24 Elders are Christians. I mean scriptures that state it plainly, or which build a sustained logical summation. The reason I ask is that if we explain scripture with scripture, the only time 24 comes up is the Tabernacle/Temple service instituted by Moses and David. You'll have to show me how God's people, who are designated the number 12, got to be 24 and four living creatures making 28. You will have to show me how they are different from the 144,000 of Revelation 14, and why the are called "Elders" when Christ is the "ancient of Days" And lastly, how they got crowns before Christ did? They had them on their heads, but must now relinquish them in favor of Christ.

I thank you in advance and wish you clear thinking.


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Posted
7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for the reply. WE see things very differently. You emphasize scripture for everything, but posted only Revelation 5 in general and 19 in particular.

So as not to go into overload, let us just take one of your statements. Prove to me, with exhaustive scriptures, that the four living creatures, which are found in Ezekiel Chapter 1 and in Revelation Chapter 5 are the Church. If you cannot, I will be satisfied with proof, with exhaustive and plain scriptures, that the 24 Elders are Christians. I mean scriptures that state it plainly, or which build a sustained logical summation.

Thank you for your detailed question, Brother. I am not saying that the 4 beasts of Rev 4 and 5 are the Church. I am however saying that the Church is in heaven in Rev 5.

Rev 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You seem to like numbers as I see in the rest of your question below. So, if there are 4 beasts and 24 elders that is 28 which you say below. If those in heaven in Rev 5 say that thou hast redeemed us out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation... we know there are more than 28 kindreds, and tongues, and people, and nations. Therefore, there are obviously more people in heaven in these verses than just the 24 elders. We also see that they are kings and priests who are the Church.

We can prove using scripture that the Church is referred to as kings and priests.

Rev 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

An additional point is that we see these kings and priests, the Church, in heaven before the seals are opened. This alone is proof of a pretribulation or pre 70th week rapture.

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The reason I ask is that if we explain scripture with scripture, the only time 24 comes up is the Tabernacle/Temple service instituted by Moses and David. You'll have to show me how God's people, who are designated the number 12, got to be 24 and four living creatures making 28.

Covered in above answer.

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You will have to show me how they are different from the 144,000 of Revelation 14,

We can prove without doubt that the kings and priests in Rev 5 are not the 144,000 of Rev 14. 

The 144,000 of Rev 14 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. That is only 12 kindreds, and tongues and people and nations.

Secondly, those kings and priests in Rev 5 are in heaven before the seals are opened and the 144,000 are in heaven after the seals are opened.

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

and why they are called "Elders" when Christ is the "ancient of Days"

I don't know WHY they are called elders any more than I know why a horse is called a horse.

I do, however, think that they represent the Church, which I believe scripture proves.

What does the Word say about the 24 elders? The Word says that they sit around the throne. The Word says that they are clothed in white. The Word says that they have crowns. And the Word says they will reign on the earth. See below in Rev 4 and 5.

Rev 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now what does the Word say to the seven Churches? The Word says the exact same thing. The Church will be given crowns, reign on earth, clothed in white, and sit around the throne.

Rev 2

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 3

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And lastly, how they got crowns before Christ did? They had them on their heads, but must now relinquish them in favor of Christ.

I'm pretty sure Christ already had His crown before those crowns are cast to Him.

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I thank you in advance and wish you clear thinking.

Thanks. I did my best. I hope that it is adequate.


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Posted
7 hours ago, The Light said:

Thank you for your detailed question, Brother. I am not saying that the 4 beasts of Rev 4 and 5 are the Church. I am however saying that the Church is in heaven in Rev 5.

Rev 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You seem to like numbers as I see in the rest of your question below. So, if there are 4 beasts and 24 elders that is 28 which you say below. If those in heaven in Rev 5 say that thou hast redeemed us out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation... we know there are more than 28 kindreds, and tongues, and people, and nations. Therefore, there are obviously more people in heaven in these verses than just the 24 elders. We also see that they are kings and priests who are the Church.

We can prove using scripture that the Church is referred to as kings and priests.

Rev 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

An additional point is that we see these kings and priests, the Church, in heaven before the seals are opened. This alone is proof of a pretribulation or pre 70th week rapture.

Covered in above answer.

We can prove without doubt that the kings and priests in Rev 5 are not the 144,000 of Rev 14. 

The 144,000 of Rev 14 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. That is only 12 kindreds, and tongues and people and nations.

Secondly, those kings and priests in Rev 5 are in heaven before the seals are opened and the 144,000 are in heaven after the seals are opened.

I don't know WHY they are called elders any more than I know why a horse is called a horse.

I do, however, think that they represent the Church, which I believe scripture proves.

What does the Word say about the 24 elders? The Word says that they sit around the throne. The Word says that they are clothed in white. The Word says that they have crowns. And the Word says they will reign on the earth. See below in Rev 4 and 5.

Rev 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now what does the Word say to the seven Churches? The Word says the exact same thing. The Church will be given crowns, reign on earth, clothed in white, and sit around the throne.

Rev 2

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 3

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I'm pretty sure Christ already had His crown before those crowns are cast to Him.

Thanks. I did my best. I hope that it is adequate.

Thank you for your effort and your honesty. Instead of countering every point you made, I will set forth my understanding to the scene in heaven when John is raptured there, and we, and any interested reader can compare and decide.

1. God is a God of order and He manages His universe with Government and Laws - whether moral or physical. So we learn in Colossians 1:16 that the principalities and powers that exist were made by Him. That is, from the early dawn of creation God had His government. And we see that in Job 38:7 the angels rejoiced when God made the earth. That means God first made the heavens. Then He populated them with angels. Then He made earth and the angels who were already there, rejoiced. Then only did He make Man to populate the earth. How much time this took we cannot fathom, but the delay between making the universe and its inhabitants is apparent. And so would His Government be one of the first things He made. He would have appointed angels to have authority over certain areas and domains. This we see clearly  in the case of Lucifer in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

Because God is uncreated and His creature is created, God is totally separate from His creation. Psalm 113:6 say He must humble Himself just to look a the creature. And the way God preserved Himself and His holiness is separate Himself from it by a building called a Temple. So when God decided to dwell WITH Israel, He commanded Moses to build Him a Tabernacle. And the design of this "Tent" was not left to man's imaginations. Moses was to copy the Tabernacle in heaven (Ex.25:9, 30, Heb.8:5). Now, both Moses, and later David who also had to copy the pattern of the Temple for the plans he gave Solomon, instituted the service to this House by 24 "courses" of Priests - each doing a 2-week stint per year where they never left the Temple (1st Chron.27).

Now if Moses, and later David, had to copy the heavenly Temple so accurately, where do you think the 24 priests would fit in? God, in His wisdom, has chosenIsrael to be made of 12 Tribes, and the Church to be on the foundation of 12 Apostles. That is, 12 is the number of God's people on earth, but in the Tabernacle, the service is 24. The 24 in heaven would have probably the highest position in heaven, seeing as they were the "go-between" a holy God and a profane creation. They not only would serve God, but bring God's instruction to the rest of the angels. That would entail authority - or crowns.

And not only that, but if God was to shield Himself by a Temple, it would have been the first thing He made. Anybody serving in this House would have been the first creatures made - giving them the designation of "Elder". I propose that the term "Elders" s because they were the first of the angels and thus the oldest, and I propose that their proximity to God and their authority would entail crowns. They would have had these crowns from the dawn of creation - being a crucial part of God's government in the universe.

2. The four Living Creatures are sparsely documented, but enough is said to form an opinion. They appear three times in the Bible. They are Cherubims so they were at the Gate of Eden in Genesis 3, Ezekiel 1 and 10, and Revelation. What is common to all these three appearances? They were all situations where God was judging a sinful man and the future looked hopeless. In Genesis God's plan for man to eat from the Tree of Life and have dominion seemed to have failed. In Ezekiel God was abandoning the earth, His people and His Temple because of their sins. And in Revelation God is about to pour out His wrath on men and the earth which could end it all.

Looking at the Cherubim we see that they represented a part of God's living creatures. God made six living creatures; (i) man, (ii) the domestic beasts, (iii) the wild beasts, (iv) the birds of the sky, (v) the fish of the sea, and (vi) the creeping things. Of these six, four are represented; (i) man, (ii) a bull for serving man, (iii) a lion - a wild beast, and (iv) an eagle - chiefest bird. And then we find an interesting fact. When God brings in the New Earth, no place is found for the other two. There is no sea on the New Earth, and there is no recovery for the creeping things - the Serpent. I propose that the four Living Creatures are God's guarantee that He will not end the creation because of sins by angels and men. But that this guarantee includes the removal of the sea - for it pictures death. Twice does it cover the whole earth and all but 8 die. This is confirmed by the Rainbow round the Throne. And there is no recovery for the serpent who went against God's plan.

The 4 Living Creatures are Cherubim that serve God in that they shield Him at the Mercy seat of the Tabernacle, but that they are proof that God will not annihilate creation, but restore it, but with the absence of fish and creeping things.

3. I have written all this to show my next point. If I am correct, then the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures DID NOT NEED TO BE REDEEMED. They are faithful angels serving God since the dawn of creation. Thus, it behooves us to carefully consider the grammar of Revelation 5:8-10;

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The preferred way to read this is to say that the 24 Elders and the 4 living creature SANG the song, especially as they had harps. But was it their song? The rule of grammar about the verb modifying the last mentioned subject has exceptions. But normally, the verb modifies the last mentioned subject. If so, the song is that of the SAINTS who prayed and whose prayers were taken by the 24 Elders to God. That is, the last mentioned subject is not the 24 Elders, but the saints. It could read;

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they who had prayed, the saints, sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Then all would make sense. The 24 Elders, who serve the heavenly Temple, have been replaced by the New High Priest - Jesus. It is He, Jesus who stands between God an man and brings their prayers. And Jesus is the new King. The crowns of the 24 Elders have become obsolete. And the Lord Jesus not only made the universe, but by His Works He is able to bring in the New Heaven and New Earth. And if so, it is ONLY the prayers of the sainst that come up to God, and not the saints themselves. That is, while there is God's servants and God's government present in heaven, they are not men. They are the "ancients" - the "Elders" who now relinquish their power and principality to Jesus. Jesus is now;

  1. New High Priest and Mediator between God and man
  2. New King of creation and above every principality
  3. The One authorized to carry out the restoration of heaven and earth
  4. The new song BY MEN is that MEN, and not ANGELS, will rule the earth. A New Principality is born

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Posted
11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your effort and your honesty. Instead of countering every point you made, I will set forth my understanding to the scene in heaven when John is raptured there, and we, and any interested reader can compare and decide.

Pretty tough to counter the point that the Church are kings and priests because the scripture plainly states it. The scripture also states what Jesus promises the Church which is exactly what happens to the 24 elders. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

 Rev 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

 


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Posted
16 hours ago, The Light said:

Pretty tough to counter the point that the Church are kings and priests because the scripture plainly states it. The scripture also states what Jesus promises the Church which is exactly what happens to the 24 elders. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

 Rev 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Sorry for the delay in answering. I think you've misread my answer in just one point. I do not deny that the Church is a company of kings and priests. My argument was that the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures are NOT the Church. The matter hangs around who sand the song? And the Church do not have to be in heaven to sing that song. So, my question to you is then, what evidence is there that the Church is present in heaven in Chapter 4 and 5 IF the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures are NOT the Church.

If you refuse my arguments in my posting, then my question is, the 4 living creatures appear in Ezekiel Chapter 1 and 10 I believe. But the Church neither existed then, nor was it revealed to the Old Testament prophets. What was the Church doing there? 

You have to decide whether you want the 4 Living Creatures as the Church (if you ignore the subject / verb rule) - for then they sang the song.


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Posted
On 12/3/2021 at 6:30 AM, The Light said:

Here is the harvest in Rev 7

Rev 7

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

No, this is not the harvest, this is the firstborn, which are, according to the law, also taken to the temple; just as the firstfruits of the field are. Prophesying the rapture, Paul wrote,

Heb. 12:22 But you are come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men having been made perfect...

There are separate gatherings to heaven of the 144,000 of Israel (Rev. 14) and those of the Church (Rev. 7). These are two distinct groups. The harvest of the fields and the vines is separate from both of them.


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Posted
2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

No, this is not the harvest, this is the firstborn, which are, according to the law, also taken to the temple; just as the firstfruits of the field are. Prophesying the rapture, Paul wrote,

Heb. 12:22 But you are come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men having been made perfect...

There are separate gatherings to heaven of the 144,000 of Israel (Rev. 14) and those of the Church (Rev. 7). These are two distinct groups. The harvest of the fields and the vines is separate from both of them.

I'm sorry, but it is part of the harvest. 

Those that I quoted in Rev 7 are of the House of David. They are the ones that come out of the great tribulation. We can see this in Rev 15. They sing the song of Moses.

Rev 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The great multitude of Rev 7 below is a gathering from heaven and earth

Rev7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who is gathered from the earth? The twelve tribes and the dead that were not in the 1st rapture.

Who is gathered from heaven? The church that was raptured alive and the dead in Christ

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The great multitude that is gathered from heaven and earth returns to heaven for the marriage supper.

Rev 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The Church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel. Then God turns His attention to His chosen people. Even as Jacob was married Leah and worked 7 more years for the bride that he loved, Rachel, his chosen.


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Posted (edited)
On 11/26/2021 at 12:29 PM, AdHoc said:

They are then judged in the air, in the clouds and it is decided who gets a kingship in the Millennium and who goes into the Wedding Feast.

Sorry to butt in on an interesting conversation, but I'd like to get both your thoughts on something I've been struggling to correctly understand. 

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The three tenses of Salvation: (1) Justification - you were. (2) Sanctification - you are, present. (3) Glorification - you will be, future.

I'm starting to question; it is possible to be saved (a born-again believer), and be denied entrance in to the marriage of the Lamb, and the wedding supper? I base my question on a number scripture.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Based on my studies and Greek wording, "outer darkness" does not imply eternal damnation, Haides and Hell. It seems like outer darkness is simply, removed and away from the Light. Admittedly, this could be a euphemism for Haides. 

In the above scripture, we see that this is still a "servant", but an unprofitable one. Just like the servant given the one talent in Matthew 25:28-30, he was not faithful, was slothful and lazy, and sat on what he had. What he had was taken away from him (any previous rewards), not his Salvation I'm assuming? 

If that is a person's understanding, it makes sense he would be crying and angry at him or herself, losing out of everything he or she could have had in rewards and future responsibility? The question seems to rest on; what and where is "outer darkness?" Likewise:

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There seems to be a huge difference in context between, "I know you not" and "I never knew you."

Matthew 12:33 (KJV) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

It seems, without any fruit (works for the Kingdom), Jesus will not acknowledge that person, but has not lost his or her Salvation by faith, through Grace.

There are no contradictions in our Bible: In my mind, James 2:24 contradicts my thought process.

I'm pondering over the parable of the Ten Virgins. The five foolish virgins were not ready and prepared, were caught off guard. There was the Light inside for the wedding, and the door was shut to them. It was dark outside (outer darkness), and they had no light to shine, because they ran out of oil (their works?) to provide any light.

Is my thinking and reasoning plausible? I'm looking forward to your thoughts...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dennis1209

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Posted
50 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Sorry to butt in on an interesting conversation, but I'd like to get both your thoughts on something I've been struggling to correctly understand. 

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The three tenses of Salvation: (1) Justification - you were. (2) Sanctification - you are, present. (3) Glorification - you will be, future.

I'm starting to question; it is possible to be saved (a born-again believer), and be denied entrance in to the marriage of the Lamb, and the wedding supper? I base my question on a number scripture.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Based on my studies and Greek wording, "outer darkness" does not imply eternal damnation, Haides and Hell. It seems like outer darkness is simply, removed and away from the Light. Admittedly, this could be a euphemism for Haides. 

In the above scripture, we see that this is still a "servant", but an unprofitable one. Just like the servant given the one talent in Matthew 25:28-30, he was not faithful, was slothful and lazy, and sat on what he had. What he had was taken away from him (any previous rewards), not his Salvation I'm assuming? 

If that is a person's understanding, it makes sense he would be crying and angry at him or herself, losing out of everything he or she could have had in rewards and future responsibility? The question seems to rest on; what and where is "outer darkness?" Likewise:

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There seems to be a huge difference in context between, "I know you not" and "I never knew you."

Matthew 12:33 (KJV) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

It seems, without any fruit (works for the Kingdom), Jesus will not acknowledge that person, but has not lost his or her Salvation by faith, through Grace.

There are no contradictions in our Bible: In my mind, James 2:24 contradicts my thought process.

I'm pondering over the parable of the Ten Virgins. The five foolish virgins were not ready and prepared, were caught off guard. There was the Light inside for the wedding, and the door was shut to them. It was dark outside (outer darkness), and they had no light to shine, because they ran out of oil (their works?) to provide any light.

Is my thinking and reasoning plausible? I'm looking forward to your thoughts...

 

 

 

 

 

I my understanding you got it about 95% correct. The only point, and I understand that it is not yet settled in your mind, is the fate of those who Jesus did not "know".

To cut a long story short, the Roman Catholic Church, or better designated, the Holy Roman Empire, has mixed pagan beliefs with the Bible. One of the most damaging doctrines is that one dies and goes to heaven or hell. But this is not what the Bible reveals. the Bible reveals that God made man to rule the earth. This thought is never abandoned. Israel are promised a piece of it, and later the Promise to Abraham was extended to the whole "earth" (Rom.4:13). Thus, the Christians look the wrong way. They look to heaven, not for the coming of their King, but for "pearly gates" and golden streets.

The Bible reveals another scheme. Adam fell badly. He not only sinned and set himself up to die, he was banned from the Tree of Life, banned from the Garden of Fellowship, corrupted in his humanity and had relinquished his kingship over the earth. The story of the Bible is the utter failure of the first man and his offspring, and the total success of the last Man - Jesus, and His Offspring. The process of salvation involves five stages:

  1. Man must have his sins judicially put away or be consigned to the trash-heap of the earth - Gehenna
  2. Man must under go a new and heavenly birth in his human spirit to give him the divine nature to be a "help, meet" for his heavenly Bridegroom, and to have the nature to be in the image and likeness of God (Jn.1:12-13, 3:6, 2nd Pet.1:4)
  3. Man's soul must be transformed, or sanctified so that he thinks, feels and decides like Jesus (Rom.8:29, 2nd Cor.3:18)
  4. Man's body is a write-off. It must be remodeled, not in the womb, but by the Holy Spirit in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-5)
  5. Man must prove to God that he is fit to rule the earth without bringing God's Kingdom into disrepute. His righteousness must be impeccable. 

Points 1, 2 and 4 are beyond man. He is just not in the position to do anything. He is like a snowball heading downhill - gaining momentum for the "lowest". So God does a work through His Son Jesus to accomplish a solution for those three problems. The man can come into the power and enjoyment of points 1 and 2 by siply BELIEVING into Jesus and all He has done. Point 4, resurrection, is guaranteed to all men because God's restoration will be complete, whether the man fulfills the plan or not. But point 3 and 5 are difficult. God made man in His likeness and God has a free will. So God cannot just infringe on this and force the man to be transformed and to be righteous.

Point number 3 needs the man to cooperate with God by  denying his soul-life and denying, even unto death, the desires of the flesh. Added to this, the man must willingly have the right diet of spiritual food, and he must have a deep love affair with his coming Bridegroom - Jesus. In short, the man must love the things of God and love His Bridegroom much more than himself.

Point number 5 needs two things. It needs a total denial of the self-interests and it needs, when the man weakens, a "grievous" chastisement from God (Heb.12.). Being righteous in God's matters for His Name's sake, needs one, not only to will to do God's will, but to embrace God's chastisement when you need to be "exercised" by it.

So God, in His wisdom, while He gives points 1, 2 and 4 freely through FAITH, knew that not all of His sons would be motivated to deny the self unto death. fallen man, even the reborn Christian, loves himself and his things so much. So God set a REWARD for the Christian's cooperation. He sets aside the first 1,000 years of Christ's Kingdom as a REWARD. The REWARDS are:

  1. Christ's favor
  2. Christ's joy
  3. Christ's presence
  4. To be a co-king with Christ over a city or cities of the Nations
  5. To be a guest AND representative Bride at Christ's Wedding Feast
  6. To be part of Christ's army that destroys His enemies and changes the earth's government at Armageddon
  7. To have fame on all the earth
  8. To have power to do miracles
  9. To have a special glory in resurrection

The slthful, self-loving, self-promoting Christians will suffer the following loss. But it must be remembered that points 1, 2 and 4 are done by Christ and the Father has approved them. THEY CAN NEVER BE OVERTHROWN. That is, the slothful and habitually sinful Christian who has no real love for his Bridegroom, will FOREVER be a son of God. His sins are put away, and he will be resurrected with other Christians. BUT ....

  1. He must swallow Christ's rebuke for 1,000 years
  2. He is cast out of Christ's presence for 1,000 years
  3. He must live with his failure and weep for 1,000 years
  4. He must regret his actions for 1,000 years and gnash his teeth
  5. He could be actively punished for 1,000 years if he was wicked
  6. He still must undergo transformation, but not in the age of grace
  7. He may not be co-king with Christ over the Nations
  8. Rather he will be treated worse than the heathen
  9. He may not enter the Wedding Feast of Christ
  10. He will be the subject of scorn of angels, and the heathen
  11. He will lose any spiritual gifts he had in this age

BUT ... because he believed in Christ's work, and because he is a son of God, unlike the heathen who can go to the Lake of Fire, he cannot be lost. God is almighty and cannot be thwarted. As a loving Father, He will use all that suffering to produce a fully mature Christian who can serve and rule and love Christ on the New Earth. At the end of the 1,000 years, he will be fully restored and enjoy the privileges of a son of God and seed of Abraham.

It is clear that I have posted nearly no scriptures. It is also clear that I have not expanded on any one point. I will discuss any point in this posting with scriptures if anyone asks, but I wanted to answer your questions concisely at first reading to get the overall picture in one posting. It is clear that this thesis goes against contemporary Christian beliefs. Just like the foolish Virgins, the Christians think everything is for free. The thought of self denial and being righteous even to their loss is abhorrent. They like teachers who tell them fairy tales. They think that they can ignore the righteous demands of a holy and fearsome God just because He has been so merciful for 2,000 years. They think that they can fornicate, steal and mistreat their fellow brethren and God will still reward them. 

NOT SO! Here below is to whom the first letter to the Church at Corinth is addressed, and then what Paul, under inspiration said. BEWARE! 

1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

....

3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


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Posted
6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Sorry to butt in on an interesting conversation, but I'd like to get both your thoughts on something I've been struggling to correctly understand. 

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The three tenses of Salvation: (1) Justification - you were. (2) Sanctification - you are, present. (3) Glorification - you will be, future.

I'm starting to question; it is possible to be saved (a born-again believer), and be denied entrance in to the marriage of the Lamb, and the wedding supper? I base my question on a number scripture.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Based on my studies and Greek wording, "outer darkness" does not imply eternal damnation, Haides and Hell. It seems like outer darkness is simply, removed and away from the Light. Admittedly, this could be a euphemism for Haides. 

In the above scripture, we see that this is still a "servant", but an unprofitable one. Just like the servant given the one talent in Matthew 25:28-30, he was not faithful, was slothful and lazy, and sat on what he had. What he had was taken away from him (any previous rewards), not his Salvation I'm assuming? 

If that is a person's understanding, it makes sense he would be crying and angry at him or herself, losing out of everything he or she could have had in rewards and future responsibility? The question seems to rest on; what and where is "outer darkness?" Likewise:

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There seems to be a huge difference in context between, "I know you not" and "I never knew you."

Matthew 12:33 (KJV) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

It seems, without any fruit (works for the Kingdom), Jesus will not acknowledge that person, but has not lost his or her Salvation by faith, through Grace.

There are no contradictions in our Bible: In my mind, James 2:24 contradicts my thought process.

I'm pondering over the parable of the Ten Virgins. The five foolish virgins were not ready and prepared, were caught off guard. There was the Light inside for the wedding, and the door was shut to them. It was dark outside (outer darkness), and they had no light to shine, because they ran out of oil (their works?) to provide any light.

Is my thinking and reasoning plausible? I'm looking forward to your thoughts...

 

 

 

 

 

The point about our Lord Jesus "not knowing" the man making claim to the kIngdom deserves a separate posting. I will try to make it short. Our Lord Jesus was required by the Father to fulfill the Law. This He did in OBEDIENCE. But then the Father asked our Lord Jesus to go outside of His Law and suffer, innocent for the guilty. This our Lord did in OBEDIENCE. But there was another element involved. In John 14 our Lord Jesus told what was necessary to face the horror that He faced. Verse 31 says;

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

The Lord Jesus said that the putting aside of His life for God's purpose, and the obedience needed to do it, proved what LOVE He had for the Father. This simple, but almost impossible solution is the only solution that will enable a fallen man to be obedient. Romans Chapter 7 establishes a "Law" dwelling in our members that always wins and leads to death. The normal man, when left to his own devices, will never be obedient to the Father, not in matters of Law NEITHER in matters outside of Law when God asks the impossible.

But according to the plain and unambiguous statement of Jesus Himself, you can only enter the Millennial Kingdom as a co-king "IF YOU DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN" A man's rebirth only makes him ROYAL and eligible to "SEE" the Kingdom. It does not guarantee entry into the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth. Prince Charles of Great Britain is born royal and in line for the crown one day. For this high calling he must have a rigorous upbringing. Much more was required of him than his fellows. But if Charles was lazy, wanton, slothful and broke the laws of England, his mother, the Queen would disown him and he would never see the crown. Rather he would see the inside of a dungeon.

God has put a mechanism in place to restore man to his former glory. This plan cost God His Son. This plan needs a part done by God and it needs man's cooperation. The requests of God in this matter can be quite outside of normal living and outside of justice. He might ask you to give your car away to a brother who has just trashed your reputation and slapped your face in public. If you do not love the Father with the appropriate LOVE, you will not be able to "do His will". He might even ask you to sacrifice your only son - like He did with Abraham. That is what it might cost you to be obedient.

And to love God is to Love His Son. And to love His Son, you, just like any courting couple, need two things:

  1. You need to spend large amounts of time with Him and get to know Him
  2. You need to walk His road to know what He has been through

Only this way will you "know" Him and be known of Him. Wives of soldiers who have been to war cannot understand what happens to a man who is in fear of his life 24/7 and who sees his best buddies shredded by enemy devices and fire. What happens in the end. The soldier leaves his wife and cleaves to his fellow soldiers.

In Matthew 7:23 the Greek word for "Knew" is "ginosko". It has the sense of being intimately acquainted. Even better than its various  meanings, is how the Holy Spirit uses it. Jospeh did not "KNOW" (ginosko) Mary until after Jesus was born. It means the closest of intimacy - sexual intercourse.

In Matthew 25:12 the Greek word rendered "know" is "oida" which means "to know by perception". It is used elsewhere in scripture to denote knowledge that isn't obvious. In Mark 9:2 Jesus KNEW their faith. That is, nothing physical was displayed but Jesus was aware of, knew of, faith in men. The sense is of a man in the dark knowing of his wife nearby.

In both these cases, the "servants" and the Virgins where born-again Christians. Even after they re rebuked and cut out of the presence of Christ, they do not lose their rank or designation. They are still servants and Virgins. But the problem was that they did not have that INTIMACY with Jesus that LOVERS have. Jesus, Who knows His own, had INTELLECTUAL knowledge of them, but no INTIMATE knowledge. The servants and Virgins had not walked His road and He had never had the joy of intimacy with them. He could not sense them nearby. He had no connection to them in His emotions.

And if you have not fostered this "KNOWLEDGE" with your Lord and Savior, you will NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS - the way into the kIngdom.*

* When I say Kingdom, I ALWAYS mean the Kingdom that Christ will set up on EARTH when He returns to earth. He prayed to the Father, "Thy Kingdom COME ... (from heaven to earth), Thy WILL be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven". The problem is not in heaven. It is on earth. 

 

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