The MARK of the Beast is literal

[other one]

That would be typical of these kinds of hearings.

[fenwar]

Hi Ovedya, thanks for your comments

I disagree.  Although the book of Revelation is largely symbolic in many areas, there are some matters that are purely literal.  Thus far I have not seen a symbolic interpretation of Revelation 13:17. This verse tells us that, "...no one may be able to buy or sell except him who has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of his name."

What this says to me is that the evil in that society (in general) is such that you can't even participate in trade without supporting it.

In other words, suppose every single item of clothing was produced in a sweat shop by child labourers. Every item of food was priced so low that farmers received less than it cost to grow. You couldn't buy anything without contributing to the system that was exploiting them. (This is, sadly, not that hard to imagine today.)

Now, "the number of his name" is definately symbolic, which is why John says that wisdom is required to interpret its meaning. The number is the number of a man, which is actually Caesar Nero.

So the mark is a literal mark, but the number given is symbolic of a name. Actually it's sort of a numerical code that requires wisdom to interpret.  However, there is simply no reason whatsoever to believe that the mark of the beast will not be a literal mark.

Or on the other hand, it could just be that in order to do business in the Roman marketplace you had to proclaim your allegiance to Caesar as "Lord".

If the beast is Nero - why does anyone think this passage is talking about a future event? I don't quite get it.

I think John is describing every corrupt society, throughout history, from the Roman Empire onwards. Every government that persecutes Christians and forces them into the shadows, every regime that glorifies hedonism and the pursuit of personal gain at the expense of the weak.

The beast is, quite simply, man at his worst.

In any case, I'm not looking for the appearance of the mark.  As fenwar pointed out, it's interesting to speculate.  But otherwise it's all just a distraction.  Whether it is a literal mark or not, I'm going to play it safe and just gain Christ every day. I am going to endeavor to build up the church, which is the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, and be built into the church as a living stone, a holy place of God in Christ Jesus, until He returns to claim me inthe glorious and fearful day of His appearing.

That's the best policy.

Fenwar

[other one]

Fenwar, if what you are saying is true, then any of us that are buying and selling now have condemned ourselves to hell. If we are partaking of things on a daily basis we are in effect using the mark today.........

Most likely the closest thing to a saved person today would be minnonites.

I just can't see this......

[Guest goodfig]

Hi everyone

fenwar, you said........... " Or on the other hand, it could just be that in order to do business in the Roman marketplace you had to proclaim your allegiance to Caesar as "Lord"."

I agree, that's exactly what I believe it to be. to buy things we'll have to profess (proclaim our allegiance) that we believe in the one(satan) that is claiming to be God. we have to remember satan is coming to play God, claiming that he(satan) is God...it wouldn't deceive anyone if he was passing out tattoo's or micro chips.

[Ovedya]

Fenwar,

Just a quick comment, then I have a lot of work to do today. I won't be able to get back to the specifics of why I believe that the beast will be the resurrection of the spirit of Caesar Nero until much later, perhaps not until tomorrow:

If the beast is Nero - why does anyone think this passage is talking about a future event? I don't quite get it.

It has to be a future event, because Caesar Nero was already dead at the time of John's writing. Consider Rev. 17:8a, "The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition..."

[Smalcald]

At one time I looked at Revelation as both figurative and something that happened under Nero.

But if we trust the bible as the Word of God, I think we really must address the entire bible as being meant for us today. There is much in Revelation that is talking about the end of the world and judgement, now some may be figurative in the specifics, I don't know, but it is definitely written as a prophesy to believers, and we are believers.

If we start looking at the bible as something "in" history I think we have a major problem. Because if Revelation was written only to those at that time, then the writings of Paul could be perceived as the same. Maybe the Gospels themselves were written for only those people. How would we differentiate, thus the bible is not an historical document, but the living Word of God to all of us in the past, present and future. So Revelation was meant for us to read as believers today getting ready for the coming of Christ.

[Guest hilltop]

There has been a suggestion of putting a chip underneath our skin instead of having a passport. (This was to make it harder for terrorist, to enter western contries)

There has also been suggested that we can scan our eye's in a maschine, instead of having a visacard or creditcard. Revelations 13:16-17

This wouldn't be obvious for non-believers, what do you people think about that?

[cag7800]

i know this isn't about the mark,but i would like to share a story that happened a couple weeks ago.we were going out to eat,my daughter and 2 of my grandchildren,my husband and myself. we were going in my van the dececided to go in my daughter car,we forgot to close the van doors,i decided not to take my purse or my cell phone since my daughter had her cell.i had meant to tell my husband to go back and lock the dead bolt on the front door(it has a film on it and you can't see inside the house ).well my son who is agonstic came home the fron't door was open,my van door was open and my purse and cell phone in the house,he call my daughter but she didn't hear it ring,he called my oldest son (who is also agnostic)and told him something weird was going on,mom never leaves without her purse and cell phone,about that same time someone on the computer messaged my son and said *where is everybody ,i can't find anyone. they called my daughters cell again and my daughter answered it my youngest son came up to where we were and he just looked and me and said," don't do that again',i realized that he that he thought that we had been raputured,he said mom you better call"tommy,he thinks ya'll done been raputured,laughing,he said he thought the aliens had got us..made me feel that they are listening to mama and that our Lord is coming soon

[CarolineS]

Fenwar,

Just a quick comment, then I have a lot of work to do today.  I won't be able to get back to the specifics of why I believe that the beast will be the resurrection of the spirit of Caesar Nero until much later, perhaps not until tomorrow:

If the beast is Nero - why does anyone think this passage is talking about a future event? I don't quite get it.

It has to be a future event, because Caesar Nero was already dead at the time of John's writing. Consider Rev. 17:8a, "The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition..."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<Rev. 17:8>

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

The beast that is resurrected is papel rome. Isn't it just like Satan to imitate or copy Jesus? He wants to take the place of Christ. That has been His wish or desire since he was thrown out of heaven.

Satan crucified Christ using the Roman Empire as his tool. Under Nero, he persecuted and killed many Christians. However, this persecution was not working. It only made the true church stronger. So the Roman Empire was not longer useful to Satan. He needed to do something different. So he did.

He moved into the church. And thus papel Rome grew out of the fall of the Roman Empire. The little horn came up when Rome fell. Now Satan could use the church itself to persecute the true church, which is exactly what he did during the Dark Ages. For 1,260 yrs. Christians were put to death for following Christ and the true doctrines of scripture.

So we have the beast that was....Rome and Papal Rome.

The beast that is not......Papal Rome lost it's political power when Napoleon attempted to reunite Europe and took the pope captive.

The beast that yet is....in the 1900's a pact was signed and gave the vatican the right to be a sovereign government.

Just like Jesus was crucified and resurrected, Satan has copied the resurrection by bringing back to life the beast power.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Pilgrim7]

The mark of the beast has to do with worshiping a false Christ or anti-christ. You don't need to bow down to worship, scriptures say who you obey, he is your master. Anti-christ means one who stands in for or impersonates christ or claims to have the authority of Christ. The essence of the mark is worship.

Who is the one who claims to be the representative of Christ on this earth. He is here right now. 'Vicar of Christ' means one who represents or substitutes for Christ. Almost the whole Protestant world knew this a hundred years ago.

Jesus said that we are all brothers. He also said to call no man father, how much more so 'Holy Father'. He who humbles himself will be exalted and he who would be first must be the servant of all. There is no need to be deceived or in confusion.

God Bless and keep,

Dennis