When is 'the Church' judged?

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Hmmm. The Chosen People of God will know EXACTLY when He is coming. He is coming at the Last Trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets toward the end of the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week of Daniel will begin after a covenant is confirmed. They will know that He is coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.  That day, THE DAY OF THE LORD, will not take them unaware.

As for the Church, the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. The GOODMAN is told to watch and be ready.

How can that co exist with this?  


Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience   3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us  5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus  7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus  8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God  9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them  11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

being ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL,

STRANGERS FROM THE PROMISE 

having no hope,

and without God in the world
 

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 FOR HE IS OUR PEACE WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE AND HATH BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US.  

DID HE OR DID HE NOT MAKE CITIZENSHIP INTO THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL POSSIBLE FOR THE GENTILES?   yes or no

DID HE OR DID HE NOT MAKE THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL AND THE ADOPTED GENTILES INTO ONE BODY?  yes or no
 

I read all this to say THAT THE GENTILES ARE NO LONGER STRANGERS TO THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL BUT  have become A PART OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL and AS SUCH are no longer strangers to the promises but are to be partakers of the promises.  

Can 'the church' REMAIN 'partakers of the PROMISE' if they don't remain of the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL? 

The church doesn't want to have any laws to follow, wants Jesus to be held responsible for everything they do or don't do, don't want to go through any tribulations yet wants to receive all of the promises that come from making it through the tribulations?  


All generations go though being murdered and suffering for the name of God, but NOT the last one?
Why would the final generation be the only generation that it wouldn't be required of?  For all eternity there will be those who got eaten by lions as ENTERTAINMENT, or set on fire to light up the streets at night, or tortured for endless days to change their beliefs but for ONE GENERATION of believers that was just too much to ask.  Never mind that OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR was perfected by what He suffered but no way for the final 'church'.  I just don't know how that could ever be explained.  

WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES 'GREAT' TRIBULATION DIFFERENT THAN anyone elses 'TRIBULATION'?  Isn't the worst thing that can happen 'death of the flesh'?  Hasn't that happened to everyone always?  Isn't that something that is promised to happen?  IDK

Ephesians 2:15 Having ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace  16 And that He might reconcile BOTH unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

IF BOTH the commonwealth of Israel and the gentile converts ARE IN ONE BODY  how is it some stay and some go?  How can some be ready and some not?

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God

AKA OF GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE 

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone

THE CHURCH IS BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS AND IF THE CHURCH WOULD GET TO KNOW THEIR 'FOUNDATION' 
THEN maybe they would quit boasting about being something SPECIAL AND TREATING THEMSELVES as somehow different and separate from rather than adopted into

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

1/2 TO be pre trib raptured and the other 'left behing' ?

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
 

alienated
From apo and a derivative of allotrios; to estrange away, i.e. (passively and figuratively) to be non-participant -- alienate, be alien.

the commonwealth
politeia: citizenship
Usage: (a) commonwealth, polity; citizen body, (b) (the Roman) citizenship, citizen-rights, franchise.

Is it possible to make what is written here MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT than what is written here? 

d

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

You lost me here.  Judgment comes when the vials are poured out right, not when the seals and trumpets blow.  Up until then DECEPTION/the Deceiver is ruling, right?


I only know of these 2 places for  SCROLL and neither of them seem to speak to 1260 days on this earth.  

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isaiah 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

Isaiah 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

Isaiah 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Isaiah 34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Isaiah 34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.




Here I go Judaizing???  That's a good thing right?  Showing how the OT was the shadow of things to come?  Even though this isn't a 'shadow' but more a replica.  

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I am aware of this time

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not for it is given unto the Gentiles and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

But this isn't a time of Judgment either, still a time of teaching that is taking place during the tribulation of Satan.  The two witnesses are here for prophesy, not to judge.  They are here TO CORRECT.  

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

If you could just give some clarification maybe tomorrow or the next day or the day after that, in other words no hurry.  Sometimes I feel like I am in a race (like the other day) and I don't like that 'contest' feeling.  I would rather slow down and have time to talk to God (read and pray) and ponder over these things.  If not, it will come up again and we can get to it then....  thank you    d

OK. I am going to take a step back and, instead of answering the details you so diligently posted here, I'm going to post an overview. Then we can see where our paths diverge.

The Book of Revelation is named from the Greek word "Apokalypsis", which means "the REVEALING". It is a book that describes the events in heaven and on earth at the time of the REVEALING of Jesus to the earth. Although the Churches can be fitted into their history, four of the seven Churches are warned of the coming of the Lord. So even this points to the last few years of this age. From Revelation Chapter 4 on, we never hear of the Church again. We hear of saints and groups of saints but the "Ekklesia" is never mentioned again. There are various reasons for this, but not the subject we discuss.

The focus from Chapter 4 is events that take place in heaven and on earth when Jesus is about to be revealed. And the only timeline we have for this is Israel. The prophecies of the Bible are mainly for Israel. The Church is to live by FAITH, so although it can enjoy the information concerning Israel, the only prophecies given to the Church are; (i) its moral degradation called apostasy, (ii) the revealing of the man of sin, and (iii) the leaves of the Fig Tree. But, however informative they are, they do not give a timeline. But Daniel, the Jewish prophet, does.

Daniel first addresses the Gentiles, so Chapters 2 to 7 are written in Aramaic. In it he outlines their glory and their ending. From Chapter 8, Daniel returns to Hebrew and addresses Israel. And in Chapter 9 he sets forth two timelines. One is the time leading up to the death of their Messiah. Then follows a gap because Israel is under foreign rule and there is again no Temple. After this undetermined gap, Daniel sets up a second timeline, the last seven years before Israel is restored. This seven years starts with Israel able to keep the Law (the daily oblations). This coincides with the leaves of the fig tree (leaves are the covering of a tree and in parable a covering or garment is its works (Rev.19:7-8 etc.,).

But this worship is rudely interrupted after 3½ years and the Beast abolishes all worship except to himself. This event of the Beast setting himself up in the Temple of God is called, by Daniel, "The Abomination of Desolation". And in Matthew 24 God warns that this event is what unleashes His utter fury on earth (v.21). In the book of Revelation, "wrath" is mentioned 13 times and TEN of them refer to God's wrath. Satan's wrath is only mentioned once, and although a warning goes out to the inhabitants of the earth, the wrath of Satan is directed at the Woman and her seed (Rev.12). Thus the main wrath that falls upon men and the earth is from God. And God says that if He did not cut it short the Jewish Remnant (seen in Chapter 7:1-8) would not survive.

Thus, the Great Tribulation lasts 3½ years, 1260 days, 42 months and/or a time, times and half a time. Now, God's wrath is predicted upon men for one main reason - worshiping the creature (Rom.1:18-23). And this scripture also informs us that the wrath of God is revealed FROM HEAVEN. So in Revelation 4 we have Jesus, with His throne given, in Chapter 5 the book with the seals, and in Chapter 6 the "revealing" of what the seals will do to men and the earth. Nobody disputes that what the seals reveal is damaging to the earth and men. Even the White Horse and rider "conquer" indicating war. And the fifth seal, though it shows martyrs, promises revenge on men for their deaths.

To summarize:

1. The events of Revelation pertain to the REVEALING of Christ from a throne in heaven to a bloody battle 70 miles from Jerusalem
2. The Church "disappears" from the events right at the onset
3. The rest of the Book, except the last two Chapters, centers around the last 3½ years of this age
4. The center of events is where the Beast sets up his seat of worship - Jerusalem
5. The wrath meant in the book of Revelation is God's wrath and fury
6. The wrath starts with the abolition of the daily oblation and the Beast causing himself to sit in God's place calling for all worship to be directed at Himself
7. The wrath is cut short after 3½ years.
8. Jesus is REVEALED from the clouds with His armies, stands on Mt Olives, relieves Jerusalem and marches to Armageddon to defeat the Beast and his armies militarily and politically.
9. Jesus then sends His angels to gather the scattered of Israel from the four winds.
10. Then He judges the survivors of the Great Tribulation
11. Then He starts a rule of the rod of iron for 1,000 years  the first 1,000 years of an everlasting Kingdom on earth

If you were to set forth a very rough summary (as I have), what is you understanding and timeline?

[choir loft]

The church is being judged NOW.  1 Peter 4:17

Indeed, the church is already ICHABOD (1 Smauel 4:21)

Rubbish about the rapture notwithstanding, the church is essentially dead already.  There is no need to remove that which is already expired.  The rapture is false doctrine.  Scripture references are falsely interpreted.   

From Luke 17:34-37 Jesus is quoted thus;

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked. 

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

Scripture references are falsely interpreted.  It is SINNERS who are evicted from the earth and it is SINNERS who are consigned to the Second Death.  They are escorted there by DEMONS, not angels.  Read the scripture.  Don't read INTO IT that which is a Vatican doctrine of demons.

Look around with clear vision.  What do we see regarding the church?  Do we see something holy and respected and above reproach?  WE DO NOT.

Corruption of all sorts has riddled our churches to the point that several respected denominations have openly rejected the Word of God and His Holy Spirit.  The spirit has departed as per their demands and as a result the church-plant is withering from its severed root - Jesus.

Not long ago the LGBTQ community was considered a feral part of society.  This is no longer true.  Today it is the LGBTQ community that is respected and admired, not the church.  Not so long ago the church was untouchable.  There were no jokes about it from beer hall comedians and there was an attitude of respect. The church today is considered to be rabid, not the gays. Today it is the LGBTQ community that is untouchable.  We are told we WILL respect them, whether we like it or not.  

The church and the LGBTQ community have switched places.

Interpretations that hold the church in high regard, whether it be invisible or physical, are invalid.  Today we SEE that which could only be inferred a few years ago.  To all intents and purposes the church is dead.  We are only witness to its continued corruption even as we deny what is really happening - as we reinvent the intent of scripture regarding rapture and tribulation.  

Anybody who believes otherwise is only kidding themselves.  Nobody else believes the rubbish we've thrust upon ourselves - that being the rapture and the notion the church is alive and well.  Both are lies.

The REAL question is not how to argue the point, which is done ad nauseam here, but what ought we to do about it?  There are no answers because we're all too busy beating a literally dead horse.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

[The Light]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How can that co exist with this?  


Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience   3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us  5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus  7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus  8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God  9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them  11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

being ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL,

STRANGERS FROM THE PROMISE 

having no hope,

and without God in the world
 

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 FOR HE IS OUR PEACE WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE AND HATH BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US.  

DID HE OR DID HE NOT MAKE CITIZENSHIP INTO THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL POSSIBLE FOR THE GENTILES?   yes or no

DID HE OR DID HE NOT MAKE THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL AND THE ADOPTED GENTILES INTO ONE BODY?  yes or no

I read all this to say THAT THE GENTILES ARE NO LONGER STRANGERS TO THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL BUT  have become A PART OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL and AS SUCH are no longer strangers to the promises but are to be partakers of the promises.  

Can 'the church' REMAIN 'partakers of the PROMISE' if they don't remain of the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL? 

 

Yes, Yes and No.

And yet you ask all the wrong questions. The question you should be asking is WHEN. And that's what you NEVER understand.

Did Jacob marry both Leah and Rachel? Yes. Did it happen at the same time? No. Jacob worked 7 more years before He married Leah. Just as there are 7 more years before the 70th week of Daniel is complete.

You never grasp when God is talking to the Church and when God is talking to the 12 tribes. You seem oblivious to the fact that the Church is not mentioned in Revelation after Rev 3 except in Rev 19 which is actually the marriage supper which occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth.

Does God deal with the with the Gentiles and the 12 tribes at the same time. No.

Hos 9

 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the twelve tribes as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Meaning that God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other gods, so THEY WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST HARVEST.

Matt 22

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Those of the 12 twelve tribes are not worthy because our worthiness is based on accepting the free gift of the Messiah. They cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah and part of them will not see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. 

What happens when the 1st harvest occurs? 

Jer 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

When the harvest is past part of Israel will have its eyes opened. They are the seed of the woman. They will realize that they were not in the first harvest and see that Jesus is the Messiah. That is why you have 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. That's because they are the first fruits of the second harvest.

If you don't understand the timing of God's Word, you don't understand.

[The Light]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The church doesn't want to have any laws to follow, wants Jesus to be held responsible for everything they do or don't do, don't want to go through any tribulations yet wants to receive all of the promises that come from making it through the tribulations?  


All generations go though being murdered and suffering for the name of God, but NOT the last one?
Why would the final generation be the only generation that it wouldn't be required of?  For all eternity there will be those who got eaten by lions as ENTERTAINMENT, or set on fire to light up the streets at night, or tortured for endless days to change their beliefs but for ONE GENERATION of believers that was just too much to ask.  Never mind that OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR was perfected by what He suffered but no way for the final 'church'.  I just don't know how that could ever be explained.  

WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES 'GREAT' TRIBULATION DIFFERENT THAN anyone elses 'TRIBULATION'?  Isn't the worst thing that can happen 'death of the flesh'?  Hasn't that happened to everyone always?  Isn't that something that is promised to happen?  IDK

Ephesians 2:15 Having ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace  16 And that He might reconcile BOTH unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

IF BOTH the commonwealth of Israel and the gentile converts ARE IN ONE BODY  how is it some stay and some go?  How can some be ready and some not?

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God

AKA OF GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE 

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone

THE CHURCH IS BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS AND IF THE CHURCH WOULD GET TO KNOW THEIR 'FOUNDATION' 
THEN maybe they would quit boasting about being something SPECIAL AND TREATING THEMSELVES as somehow different and separate from rather than adopted into

Is it possible to make what is written here MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT than what is written here? 

d

It puzzles me that you don't understand these things. This is pretty basic stuff. The Jews rejected Jesus.

Matt 21

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It's all about timing, timing, timing, timing. The kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. But is that the end of the story? NO! The Jews will be regrafted into the kingdom. But that can't happen until they can see. And that can't happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

You claim that the believers of the pretribulation rapture think that they are special because they don't go through the tribulation. We don't go through the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. That's because God has turned His attention to His other bride, the Chosen People.

I'm not sure why you seem to reject what the Word says. And the Lord gives HIS explanation.

Rev 3

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The Lord is clear. 

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It's all about timing, timing, timing, timing. God will turn His attention to His chosen as soon as the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Be not ignorant of this mystery.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Yes, Yes and No.

And yet you ask all the wrong questions. The question you should be asking is WHEN. And that's what you NEVER understand.

Did Jacob marry both Leah and Rachel? Yes. Did it happen at the same time? No. Jacob worked 7 more years before He married Leah. Just as there are 7 more years before the 70th week of Daniel is complete.

You never grasp when God is talking to the Church and when God is talking to the 12 tribes. You seem oblivious to the fact that the Church is not mentioned in Revelation after Rev 3 except in Rev 19 which is actually the marriage supper which occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth.

Does God deal with the with the Gentiles and the 12 tribes at the same time. No.

Hos 9

 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the twelve tribes as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Meaning that God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other gods, so THEY WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST HARVEST.

Matt 22

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Those of the 12 twelve tribes are not worthy because our worthiness is based on accepting the free gift of the Messiah. They cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah and part of them will not see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. 

What happens when the 1st harvest occurs? 

Jer 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

When the harvest is past part of Israel will have its eyes opened. They are the seed of the woman. They will realize that they were not in the first harvest and see that Jesus is the Messiah. That is why you have 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. That's because they are the first fruits of the second harvest.

If you don't understand the timing of God's Word, you don't understand.

I ask all the wrong questions because all the questions I ask directly confront the problems associated with PRE TRIB THEORY.  I can understand how they would seem wrong.  It isn't from a lack of understanding 'the timing', it is from a lack of understanding the conclusions predicated on the theory.  The questions that get asked over and over and over again would be answered if in fact there was any truth to it.  But they never are.  Just the whitewashing to cover what is impossible to make true. UNTIL the VERY beginning IS SHOWN TO BE TRUTH, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.  No matter how many  details are given on the back end there remains the foundational problem. 

HOW can there be a gathering BEFORE when NO GATHERING takes place until AFTER?

and/or 

How can the 'church' be returning WHEN it never left?


Pre trib STARTS out with a lie about WHO is taken to heaven and so returning with Christ.  BOLDLY, it presses on, changing as objections that can't be overcome are proven.  But a TRUTHFUL beginning just can't be found  Pre trib keeps coming up with more details about harvests and marriages and what ever else it can in an effort to BY PASS THAT VERY false FOUNDATION and bolster credibility. 

2 THESS directly addresses the problems brought in by 1 THESS, but that is glossed over or not addressed?   What are the FACTS of the gathering given in scripture?  

2 THESS tells them EXACTLY WHEN THE GATHERING 'of the church/alive and remaining' takes place and that GATHERING only takes place the TRIBULATION caused by the man of sin and the son of perdition is REVEALED. (Not just once but 3 times).    

1 THESS 4 is talking about those who have gone to SLEEP/DIED, NOT THE CHURCH. 

Isn't this like the biggest problem EVER??  What the 'church' claims is the pre trib rapture is nothing more than the dead/sleep rising AT THEIR DEATH.
(very unexpectedly for some.  We best keep watching because we never know when death comes and Christ brings us to the Father)

'THE CHURCH' (or the remnant of it since we know of the falling away)  will be  THE ALIVE AND REMAINING who will be gathered and caught up 

IF the church were to be 'raptured' today there would be all sorts of sin brought up into heaven and THAT WOULD BECOME THE ETERNAL STATE OF IT.  

Of course THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION because NO ONE KNOWS.  NO ONE knows if everyone suddenly dies or not.  (BUT since there will be no flesh and blood allowed then they all must die and be raised in their incorruptible bodies).  It was an evil generation that seeked a sign,  how is it a billion carcasses are not a sign?  NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  When is the church judged?  What is done with unrepented sin? NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  How does the church become the elders?  NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  Why can't God control His wrath at the end and not have it fall upon those who love and obey Him like He always has?  NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  Paul talks about how he was delivered over and over yet that doesn't hold true for the church.  Why wouldn't it?  Who could know because nothing is written about it. Being given all the information before hand makes us know all Satan does is lie, how is it the church believes it could be tempted if it remained especially for just an hour?  NO ONE KNOWS because there isn't anything written about that either.  Actually NOTHING IS WRITTEN ABOUT IT.  So much for 'I have foretold you all things'  Seems Jesus completely forgot all about the biggest miracle EVER EVER EVER. 

God tells us IN DETAIL about the parting of the sea, Noah s flood, bloodlines, clean and unclean foods, what happens when we obey and when we don't, prophecies, what it will be like when Satan is cast to earth and everything in between but when it comes to what would amount to THE BIGGEST BY FAR MIRACLE He tells us  SPECIFICALLY NOTHING.  Not one single verse to confirm it's truth.  Does anyone realize that every SINGLE VERSE IS SUPPOSITION.  EVERY SINGLE ONE.  NOT once does Jesus mention coming or returning for 'the church'.  Not coming and returning again.  Not descending followed by ascending.  

Jesus DOES speak about PRE TRIB EVENTS but He only speaks of the beginning of sorrows.  WHY mention those and leave out the most IMPORTANT AND BIGGEST MIRACLE TO EVER HAPPEN?  The beginning of sorrows really shouldn't be referred to as the beginning of sorrows if the church IS ABOUT TO BE RAPTURED should they?  They would be the traffic jam for the 'flight for the feast'. 

When asked what the end times will be like WHY DOESN'T JESUS SAY 'DON'T WORRY AS YOU WON'T BE HERE FOR ANY OF IT but let me tell you what will be going on for those who will.  NO, JESUS speaks to them AS IF it was going to happen to them. 
BUT why even speak to it IF THE ONLY PEOPLE IT CONCERNS ARE THOSE WHO WILL NEVER READ ABOUT IT? Not once does He say 'the rest of this information is for informational purposes only.  He speaks it like it is a warning, knowledge 'the church' would need to know. LIKE DON'T BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.  

AFTER, NOT BEFORE

1 THESS is what is used for 'pre trib rap'  2 THESS MAKES  SURE states again and again NOT TILL AFTER.  

UNTIL these BASIC problems are addressed all the harvests and marriages and other information don't mean a thing.  If PRE TRIB RAP can't be found then all those things are nothing more than a continuation of a delusion. 

AM I SUPPPOSED to believe 

GOD sends BLINDNESS upon His own people SO HE CAN THEN SEND WRATH on them for being blind WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, the people who are SAVED  through that blindness are to be a people whos foundation is supposed to be in the prophets but isn't and are to have  no accountability (OSAS), and are NOT to suffer affliction (PRE TRIB) and instead of Gods wrath falling on them for anything (messages to the 7 churches) instead  are taken  to a marriage feast (Christ not remaining at the right of God for that time at least) instead FOLLOWED UP by receiving  all the GIFTS and promises those who did endure to the end (are afflicted by going through tribulation)  receive.  AND ON TOP OF THAT,  NO ONE has a clue about ANY INDIVIDUAL and what they know or don't know or how long they had been a part of the church YET THEY will be the PRIESTS FOR THE LORDS DAY.  

It's no wonder the 'churches' are having a hard time bringing in new souls.  Look at all the things a newbie is told.  There is a difference between 'returning and coming'.  Gathering is done before even though we are told no gathering will take place till after.  Once you believe for a moment, nothing you ever do can force God to let you go.  God blinds His own people then pours out His wrath upon the final generation for remaining blind.  God gives information to those who don't need it and keeps it from those who do. 

These are a few of the things I have learned in the last couple years.  

Since gentiles are made ONE with the 12 Tribes until you can show me where they are separated BY GOD as clearly as they are made one there is nothing to discuss.   Skipping over the parts that don't fit doesn't help.  Not addressing all these concerns and going back to the beliefs that come about because of it does no good.

FAITH in Gods promises are completely lacking when it comes to pre trib belief.  Faith in Gods Power or in our being given power over all our enemies

is destroyed by pre trib because it renders it all unnecessary.  THESE are some of the reasons God who never changes never changes.  It is impossible for Gods words to remain true if ONE GENERATION OF SOULS is treated different than all others.  IMPOSSIBLE. 
 

The BODY OF CHRIST marries the BRIDE OF CHRIST? Talk about confusion.

Christ came for the lost sheep of which He will lose none.  The gentiles were grafted into that family of which Christ is the head and the root and all are the many membered body. 

For pre trib to be possible as it is put forth the lost sheep must be separated from the gentiles. 

When does that happen?
NO ONE KNOWS because it isn't written.  

d

[DeighAnn]

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

That's because God has turned His attention to His other bride, the Chosen People.

I'm not sure why you seem to reject what the Word says. And the Lord gives HIS explanation.

MADE ONE.  

Let me try it this way.  

The gentiles were made one with ___________
The gentiles were aliens from_____________________
The gentiles were strangers from the promises made to __________________
Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition between the gentiles and ____________
The Gentiles are no more strangers and foreigners, but ________________ with the saints, and of the _________________ of God
The chosen people and those who received the promise are AKA 
the common wealth of ___________________, or _________________ or ________________
ALL THESE THINGS WERE WRITTEN BEFORE OR AFTER THE REJECTION OF CHRIST?

[DeighAnn]

47 minutes ago, The Light said:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Where is it written that the only way to be 'KEEP THEE' is being 'caught up' to heaven.  

5083. téreó ►
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

1537. ek or ex ►
Strong's Concordance
ek or ex: from, from out of
Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.
HELPS Word-studies
1537 ek (a preposition, written eks before a vowel) – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it out-come oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).

Watches and keeps guard over our SOULS.  His words KEEP US SAFE.  Don't fear those who kill the body AND CHRIST WILL MAKE SURE YOUR SOUL STAYS INTACT AND YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR ETERNAL SALVATION. 

HIS VERY WORDS KEEP UP FROM THE DAY, HOUR, MONTH, YEAR, LIFE OF BEING TEMPTED BY EVIL.  WE work on not being tempted everyday.  WHEN we keep the word of HIS PATIENCE we naturally end up being kept from 'the hour of temptation'.  WE must NOT look at this FROM THE SAVE THE LIFE OF YOUR BODY POINT OF VIEW but save the soul.  THAT is done right here on earth.  



 

 

WHEN we add to this 

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Ephesians 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

Ephesians 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

WHY take the bodies TO HEAVEN when it is SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS THAT IS THE PROBLEM?

Why take the bodies  TO HEAVEN WHEN THE WRESTLING WE ARE TO WRESTLE ARE OF THIS WORLD?

Why give us the armor need to withstand if we are not to withstand?

 

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

If it is not the CHURCH,  who is to 'do all to stand'?  AREN'T ALL THE REST BLIND AND SO UNABLE?  

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness

Who is to GIRT THEIR LOINS WITH TRUTH and have on the BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IF NOT THE CHURCH?  I am sure you know that 'loins were girt' when going to war. 

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

ALL the fiery darts.  Will there be no fiery darts when Satan comes?  How could the church be gone AND quench all the fiery darts at the same time?

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

1 hour ago, The Light said:

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There are those who will not be under Gods protection, they will not escape.  Those who ARE under the wing of Gods protection DO ESCAPE simply by BEING UNDER THAT PROTECTION.  FAITH in the power of GOD.  IF WE ENDURE TO THE END we shall STAND before the Son of man.   IT DOESN'T TAKE an escape from EARTH to accomplish.  THAT IS A VERY NARROW VIEW of GODS ABILITIES, IMO. 

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Has it come in or has it not?  I say it has and that it did quite a long time ago.  I believe that not just the gentiles but also the lost sheep and the Jews are coming to Christ.

The gentiles have been given the full words of God just the same as the lost sheep with no difference between 'being of the bloodline' and not for the past 1800 years or so.  I guess it all depends on ones perspective of what 'fulness' of the Gentiles means.  SINCE NO ONE KNOWS, there is no sense in arguing.  I always like to think of it as 'if it's a test on how quickly I forgive' I always want to be as forgiving as possible since THAT IS HOW I WILL BE JUDGED.  But that is just me......d

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I ask all the wrong questions because all the questions I ask directly confront the problems associated with PRE TRIB THEORY.  I can understand how they would seem wrong.  It isn't from a lack of understanding 'the timing', it is from a lack of understanding the conclusions predicated on the theory.  The questions that get asked over and over and over again would be answered if in fact there was any truth to it.  But they never are. 

Well, gee. All you have to do is read the scriptures that I posted. It speaks for itself. God directly says that He is going to take the kingdom from the Jew and give it to another nation. He says the branches are cut off but if they believe, they will be regrafted.

All you have to do is read the scripture and accept what is written. Simple stuff here.

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

Just the whitewashing to cover what is impossible to make true. UNTIL the VERY beginning IS SHOWN TO BE TRUTH, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.  No matter how many  details are given on the back end there remains the foundational problem. 

HOW can there be a gathering BEFORE when NO GATHERING takes place until AFTER?

and/or 

How can the 'church' be returning WHEN it never left?

I wonder, just wonder who those kings and priests in Rev 5 are. I wonder if we can accept what is written or there is confusion on the simple things.

Rev 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Pre trib STARTS out with a lie about WHO is taken to heaven and so returning with Christ.  BOLDLY, it presses on, changing as objections that can't be overcome are proven.  But a TRUTHFUL beginning just can't be found  Pre trib keeps coming up with more details about harvests and marriages and what ever else it can in an effort to BY PASS THAT VERY false FOUNDATION and bolster credibility. 

2 THESS directly addresses the problems brought in by 1 THESS, but that is glossed over or not addressed?   What are the FACTS of the gathering given in scripture?  

2 THESS tells them EXACTLY WHEN THE GATHERING 'of the church/alive and remaining' takes place and that GATHERING only takes place the TRIBULATION caused by the man of sin and the son of perdition is REVEALED. (Not just once but 3 times).    

1 THESS 4 is talking about those who have gone to SLEEP/DIED, NOT THE CHURCH. 

Isn't this like the biggest problem EVER??  What the 'church' claims is the pre trib rapture is nothing more than the dead/sleep rising AT THEIR DEATH.
(very unexpectedly for some.  We best keep watching because we never know when death comes and Christ brings us to the Father)

'THE CHURCH' (or the remnant of it since we know of the falling away)  will be  THE ALIVE AND REMAINING who will be gathered and caught up 

IF the church were to be 'raptured' today there would be all sorts of sin brought up into heaven and THAT WOULD BECOME THE ETERNAL STATE OF IT.  

Of course THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION because NO ONE KNOWS.  NO ONE knows if everyone suddenly dies or not.  (BUT since there will be no flesh and blood allowed then they all must die and be raised in their incorruptible bodies).  It was an evil generation that seeked a sign,  how is it a billion carcasses are not a sign?  NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  When is the church judged?  What is done with unrepented sin? NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  How does the church become the elders?  NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  Why can't God control His wrath at the end and not have it fall upon those who love and obey Him like He always has?  NO ONE KNOWS because nothing is written about it.  Paul talks about how he was delivered over and over yet that doesn't hold true for the church.  Why wouldn't it?  Who could know because nothing is written about it. Being given all the information before hand makes us know all Satan does is lie, how is it the church believes it could be tempted if it remained especially for just an hour?  NO ONE KNOWS because there isn't anything written about that either.  Actually NOTHING IS WRITTEN ABOUT IT.  So much for 'I have foretold you all things'  Seems Jesus completely forgot all about the biggest miracle EVER EVER EVER.

I don't think I can explain these things any better than the scriptures I posted explain. However, I don't understand you confusion. The Word says that the Jews will not accept the Messiah. Do they accept the Messiah today? Will they accept the Messiah in the future? It's all written in the book for you to see. You just seem to have a problem accepting what is written. When God says we can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass, that's what He means. You can accept it or reject it.

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

God tells us IN DETAIL about the parting of the sea, Noah s flood, bloodlines, clean and unclean foods, what happens when we obey and when we don't, prophecies, what it will be like when Satan is cast to earth and everything in between but when it comes to what would amount to THE BIGGEST BY FAR MIRACLE He tells us  SPECIFICALLY NOTHING.  Not one single verse to confirm it's truth.  Does anyone realize that every SINGLE VERSE IS SUPPOSITION.  EVERY SINGLE ONE.  NOT once does Jesus mention coming or returning for 'the church'.  Not coming and returning again.  Not descending followed by ascending.  

Jesus DOES speak about PRE TRIB EVENTS but He only speaks of the beginning of sorrows.  WHY mention those and leave out the most IMPORTANT AND BIGGEST MIRACLE TO EVER HAPPEN?  The beginning of sorrows really shouldn't be referred to as the beginning of sorrows if the church IS ABOUT TO BE RAPTURED should they?  They would be the traffic jam for the 'flight for the feast'. 

When asked what the end times will be like WHY DOESN'T JESUS SAY 'DON'T WORRY AS YOU WON'T BE HERE FOR ANY OF IT but let me tell you what will be going on for those who will.  NO, JESUS speaks to them AS IF it was going to happen to them. 
BUT why even speak to it IF THE ONLY PEOPLE IT CONCERNS ARE THOSE WHO WILL NEVER READ ABOUT IT? Not once does He say 'the rest of this information is for informational purposes only.  He speaks it like it is a warning, knowledge 'the church' would need to know. LIKE DON'T BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.  

AFTER, NOT BEFORE

1 THESS is what is used for 'pre trib rap'  2 THESS MAKES  SURE states again and again NOT TILL AFTER.  

UNTIL these BASIC problems are addressed all the harvests and marriages and other information don't mean a thing.  If PRE TRIB RAP can't be found then all those things are nothing more than a continuation of a delusion. 

AM I SUPPPOSED to believe 

Are you having trouble finding the pretribulation rapture?  Well, you know He is coming after the falling away, after the man of sin is revealed, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. So you know when He is coming. However, He will be coming when you think not. That's why He has to come more than once. That why He comes when it is like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Likewise, also He will come when it is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. I know Jesus speaks in a lot of parables. I wonder why He did that?

24 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

GOD sends BLINDNESS upon His own people SO HE CAN THEN SEND WRATH on them for being blind

 

 First off, God said He sent blindness on the Jews. Second off His children are not appointed to wrath.

The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel begins. I know that you can't see those kings and priests in Rev 5 that are in heaven before the seals are opened, but they are there.

The twelve tribes across the earth will be in heaven before the wrath of God begins. I know that you can't see the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the sixth seal, but it occurs at that time.

That leaves the woman, those that have fled in the nation of Israel as instructed, to go through the wrath of God with the unbelievers. However, the woman will be in a place of protection that was prepared for her. None of God's people are appointed to wrath.

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

OK. I am going to take a step back and, instead of answering the details you so diligently posted here, I'm going to post an overview. Then we can see where our paths diverge.

The Book of Revelation is named from the Greek word "Apokalypsis", which means "the REVEALING". It is a book that describes the events in heaven and on earth at the time of the REVEALING of Jesus to the earth. Although the Churches can be fitted into their history, four of the seven Churches are warned of the coming of the Lord. So even this points to the last few years of this age. From Revelation Chapter 4 on, we never hear of the Church again. We hear of saints and groups of saints but the "Ekklesia" is never mentioned again. There are various reasons for this, but not the subject we discuss.

The focus from Chapter 4 is events that take place in heaven and on earth when Jesus is about to be revealed. And the only timeline we have for this is Israel. The prophecies of the Bible are mainly for Israel. The Church is to live by FAITH, so although it can enjoy the information concerning Israel, the only prophecies given to the Church are; (i) its moral degradation called apostasy, (ii) the revealing of the man of sin, and (iii) the leaves of the Fig Tree. But, however informative they are, they do not give a timeline. But Daniel, the Jewish prophet, does.

Daniel first addresses the Gentiles, so Chapters 2 to 7 are written in Aramaic. In it he outlines their glory and their ending. From Chapter 8, Daniel returns to Hebrew and addresses Israel. And in Chapter 9 he sets forth two timelines. One is the time leading up to the death of their Messiah. Then follows a gap because Israel is under foreign rule and there is again no Temple. After this undetermined gap, Daniel sets up a second timeline, the last seven years before Israel is restored. This seven years starts with Israel able to keep the Law (the daily oblations). This coincides with the leaves of the fig tree (leaves are the covering of a tree and in parable a covering or garment is its works (Rev.19:7-8 etc.,).

But this worship is rudely interrupted after 3½ years and the Beast abolishes all worship except to himself. This event of the Beast setting himself up in the Temple of God is called, by Daniel, "The Abomination of Desolation". And in Matthew 24 God warns that this event is what unleashes His utter fury on earth (v.21). In the book of Revelation, "wrath" is mentioned 13 times and TEN of them refer to God's wrath. Satan's wrath is only mentioned once, and although a warning goes out to the inhabitants of the earth, the wrath of Satan is directed at the Woman and her seed (Rev.12). Thus the main wrath that falls upon men and the earth is from God. And God says that if He did not cut it short the Jewish Remnant (seen in Chapter 7:1-8) would not survive.

Thus, the Great Tribulation lasts 3½ years, 1260 days, 42 months and/or a time, times and half a time. Now, God's wrath is predicted upon men for one main reason - worshiping the creature (Rom.1:18-23). And this scripture also informs us that the wrath of God is revealed FROM HEAVEN. So in Revelation 4 we have Jesus, with His throne given, in Chapter 5 the book with the seals, and in Chapter 6 the "revealing" of what the seals will do to men and the earth. Nobody disputes that what the seals reveal is damaging to the earth and men. Even the White Horse and rider "conquer" indicating war. And the fifth seal, though it shows martyrs, promises revenge on men for their deaths.

To summarize:

1. The events of Revelation pertain to the REVEALING of Christ from a throne in heaven to a bloody battle 70 miles from Jerusalem
2. The Church "disappears" from the events right at the onset
3. The rest of the Book, except the last two Chapters, centers around the last 3½ years of this age
4. The center of events is where the Beast sets up his seat of worship - Jerusalem
5. The wrath meant in the book of Revelation is God's wrath and fury
6. The wrath starts with the abolition of the daily oblation and the Beast causing himself to sit in God's place calling for all worship to be directed at Himself
7. The wrath is cut short after 3½ years.
8. Jesus is REVEALED from the clouds with His armies, stands on Mt Olives, relieves Jerusalem and marches to Armageddon to defeat the Beast and his armies militarily and politically.
9. Jesus then sends His angels to gather the scattered of Israel from the four winds.
10. Then He judges the survivors of the Great Tribulation
11. Then He starts a rule of the rod of iron for 1,000 years  the first 1,000 years of an everlasting Kingdom on earth

If you were to set forth a very rough summary (as I have), what is you understanding and timeline?

We are here

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences,

waiting for   -   and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

While we are there

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Which is also the time of

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

THE CHURCH THAT GATHERS TO WORSHIP GOD WILL CEASE TO EXIST  NOT BECAUSE IT WAS RAPTURED AWAY BUT BECAUSE  THE WORSHIP IN THE CHURCHES WILL BE GOING TO THINGS AND PEOPLE OF THIS WORLD AND NOT TO GOD IN HEAVEN. IT WILL BE A FALLING AWAY FROM TRUTH, UNKNOWN TO THOSE WITHOUT THE GOPSEL ARMOR.  BY DECEPTION THEY ARE OVERCOME AND WILL NOT KNOW UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS

BUT GOD DOESN'T ABANDON US, HE INSTEAD 

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

The two will continue until 3 1/2 days before the Lords Return at which point - they will be killed and then
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

Jesus returns

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and THE FLESH OF ALL MEN BOTH FREE AND BOND BOTH SMALL AND GREAT

LIKE I KEEP SAYING 'NO EARTHY FLESH' WILL EXIST WHEN THE LORDS DAY BEGINS.  WE ARE GOING INTO A DIFFERENT REALM.  THAT IS WHY THE 'SACRIFICES' WILL BE 'SYMBOLIC' AS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST COVERS ALL TIME AND ALL BLOOD LETTING FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS HAS BEEN REMOVED FOREVER.  LIKE THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN.  NO EXCUSES FOR MENTAL DISEASE OR PHYSICAL DEFECT WHEN STANDING IN JUDGMENT.  NOT ABOUT THE BODY BUT THE HEART AND MIND.  

 

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

GOD MARRIED HE AND DIVORCED HER AND NOW IS TO BE MARRIED TO HER AGAIN
 

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 BUT THE FEARFUL AND UNBELIEVING  and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.




Back to the beginning of REVELATION  back to JOHNS time

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Super brief - and what written above should convey
we are here - mystery of iniquity working, body of Christ building
Satan comes - deception begins - Body of Christ falling or withstanding 
Jesus comes - NEW REALM - all in spiritual bodies some immortal, some not
 Satan bound - Truth being taught
The Lords Day - bringing whomsoever would and discipline being taught
Satan released - FINAL TRIB
good and evil separated
GOD DESTROYS evil. 
Good receive rewards

New heaven and New earth 

(the old is GONE with no remembrance of it).  (kinda like now) 

The rest is too good for words.