Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[JoeCanada]

16 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus, and Seleucus (known as the Diadochi or 'successors')?

I even know who the fourth is and I only took one course in Macedonia history.

Who are your scholars?

Look them up. 

the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, the Seleucid Empire, the Attalid Dynasty of the Kingdom of Pergamon, and Macedon

Hi Reinitin,

And then there is Lysimachus in Thrace....and Polyperchon in Epirus.... and....???

So many variables.

It all boils down to WHO was left. What started out with 24 generals all vying for a piece of the pie, after many wars and many decades, there were really only 3 generals that remained, and they remained for about 200 years.

Who were you scholars that you studied under? And what books did they use?

Here is some evidence for the 3 dynasties after Alexanders death:

With the death of Seleucus the Diadochi Wars came to an end. Alexander’s empire was split in three – Macedonia, Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire, which briefly held most of the area that had made up the Persian Empire in the years before Alexander’s invasion. After a period of frequent and dramatic changes, these three states would now gain a certain amount of permanence, and would form the basis of the Hellenistic World for the next century and a half.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_diadochi.html

 

Diadochi: The Founders Of The Three Great Dynasties

As we saw, the three great dynasties that emerged after Alexander’s death were the Ptolemies, the Seleucids, and the Antigonids. The first two were established by the original Diadochi who had served in Alexander’s army. Only the Antigonids were established by Antigonus II Gonatas, the grandson of the original Diadochos, Antigonus I Monophthalmos.

http://turningpointsoftheancientworld.com/index.php/category/wars-of-the-diadochi/

Finally, nearly fifty years after the death of Alexander, relatively stable dynasties ruled Alexander's kingdom. The Ptolemies ruled Egypt and Southern Judea until the Age of Cleopatra, the Attalids ruled in Asia Minor, became allies of Rome and eventually voluntarily became a Roman province, and the Seleucid Dynasty, ruled much of the old Persian empire until being gradually conquered by the Parthians in the East, and Rome in the west.

https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=war-dir&f=wars_diadochi

By 276 BC, there were just 3 Diadochi Dynasties left, their territories roughly divided between the three continents that the Empire straddled: the Antigonids in Europe; the Seleucids in Asia; and the Ptolemies in Egypt (see map 4 - 276 BC). These three kingdoms gradually stabilized themselves and would remain ruled by the same dynasties for another couple of centuries.................... http://explorethemed.com/diadochi.asp?c=1

https://medium.com/exploring-history/the-cast-of-alexander-the-greats-sequel-the-diadochi-5bacaab33220

[Reinitin]

21 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Reinitin,

And then there is Lysimachus in Thrace....and Polyperchon in Epirus.... and....???

So many variables.

It all boils down to WHO was left. What started out with 24 generals all vying for a piece of the pie, after many wars and many decades, there were really only 3 generals that remained, and they remained for about 200 years.

Who were you scholars that you studied under? And what books did they use?

Here is some evidence for the 3 dynasties after Alexanders death:

With the death of Seleucus the Diadochi Wars came to an end. Alexander’s empire was split in three – Macedonia, Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire, which briefly held most of the area that had made up the Persian Empire in the years before Alexander’s invasion. After a period of frequent and dramatic changes, these three states would now gain a certain amount of permanence, and would form the basis of the Hellenistic World for the next century and a half.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_diadochi.html

 

Diadochi: The Founders Of The Three Great Dynasties

As we saw, the three great dynasties that emerged after Alexander’s death were the Ptolemies, the Seleucids, and the Antigonids. The first two were established by the original Diadochi who had served in Alexander’s army. Only the Antigonids were established by Antigonus II Gonatas, the grandson of the original Diadochos, Antigonus I Monophthalmos.

http://turningpointsoftheancientworld.com/index.php/category/wars-of-the-diadochi/

Finally, nearly fifty years after the death of Alexander, relatively stable dynasties ruled Alexander's kingdom. The Ptolemies ruled Egypt and Southern Judea until the Age of Cleopatra, the Attalids ruled in Asia Minor, became allies of Rome and eventually voluntarily became a Roman province, and the Seleucid Dynasty, ruled much of the old Persian empire until being gradually conquered by the Parthians in the East, and Rome in the west.

https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=war-dir&f=wars_diadochi

By 276 BC, there were just 3 Diadochi Dynasties left, their territories roughly divided between the three continents that the Empire straddled: the Antigonids in Europe; the Seleucids in Asia; and the Ptolemies in Egypt (see map 4 - 276 BC). These three kingdoms gradually stabilized themselves and would remain ruled by the same dynasties for another couple of centuries.................... http://explorethemed.com/diadochi.asp?c=1

https://medium.com/exploring-history/the-cast-of-alexander-the-greats-sequel-the-diadochi-5bacaab33220

Ok.. I have no clue what your trying to figure out.

What i remember is Alexander died. His Four Generals succeeded him and it divided the kingdom into 4 fractions i already listed. And they had battles and had scuffles for power to restore the Empire but none of them were able to restore Alexander's Empire. So it broke up. Im sure you know who was the little horn that desicrated the temple after that? (I would have to look up the spelling of his name) Is that what your looked for? I think its in Maccabees.

Prederest use him to say the prophecies are fulfilled, christ already had his second coming.

But there is a times and time or something that theologians argue that means that dude was a type or shadow of The anti christ that will be destroyed with the big rock from heaven also know as the brightness of his coming. 

[Reinitin]

51 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Reinitin,

And then there is Lysimachus in Thrace....and Polyperchon in Epirus.... and....???

So many variables.

It all boils down to WHO was left. What started out with 24 generals all vying for a piece of the pie, after many wars and many decades, there were really only 3 generals that remained, and they remained for about 200 years.

Who were you scholars that you studied under? And what books did they use?

Here is some evidence for the 3 dynasties after Alexanders death:

With the death of Seleucus the Diadochi Wars came to an end. Alexander’s empire was split in three – Macedonia, Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire, which briefly held most of the area that had made up the Persian Empire in the years before Alexander’s invasion. After a period of frequent and dramatic changes, these three states would now gain a certain amount of permanence, and would form the basis of the Hellenistic World for the next century and a half.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_diadochi.html

 

Diadochi: The Founders Of The Three Great Dynasties

As we saw, the three great dynasties that emerged after Alexander’s death were the Ptolemies, the Seleucids, and the Antigonids. The first two were established by the original Diadochi who had served in Alexander’s army. Only the Antigonids were established by Antigonus II Gonatas, the grandson of the original Diadochos, Antigonus I Monophthalmos.

http://turningpointsoftheancientworld.com/index.php/category/wars-of-the-diadochi/

Finally, nearly fifty years after the death of Alexander, relatively stable dynasties ruled Alexander's kingdom. The Ptolemies ruled Egypt and Southern Judea until the Age of Cleopatra, the Attalids ruled in Asia Minor, became allies of Rome and eventually voluntarily became a Roman province, and the Seleucid Dynasty, ruled much of the old Persian empire until being gradually conquered by the Parthians in the East, and Rome in the west.

https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=war-dir&f=wars_diadochi

By 276 BC, there were just 3 Diadochi Dynasties left, their territories roughly divided between the three continents that the Empire straddled: the Antigonids in Europe; the Seleucids in Asia; and the Ptolemies in Egypt (see map 4 - 276 BC). These three kingdoms gradually stabilized themselves and would remain ruled by the same dynasties for another couple of centuries.................... http://explorethemed.com/diadochi.asp?c=1

https://medium.com/exploring-history/the-cast-of-alexander-the-greats-sequel-the-diadochi-5bacaab33220

If you love to study this stuff. This book is good. Im old:) I use books.

The Wars of the Diadochi: The Battle for Alexander the Great's Legacy https://www.amazon.com/dp/1095491881/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glc_fabc_YBFRRW8ACMHCM9DZK2PR

[truth7t7]

56 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Ok.. I have no clue what your trying to figure out.

What i remember is Alexander died. His Four Generals succeeded him and it divided the kingdom into 4 fractions i already listed. And they had battles and had scuffles for power to restore the Empire but none of them were able to restore Alexander's Empire. So it broke up. Im sure you know who was the little horn that desicrated the temple after that? (I would have to look up the spelling of his name) Is that what your looked for? I think its in Maccabees.

Prederest use him to say the prophecies are fulfilled, christ already had his second coming.

But there is a times and time or something that theologians argue that means that dude was a type or shadow of The anti christ that will be destroyed with the big rock from heaven also know as the brightness of his coming. 

Scripture strongly suggest Daniel's little horn is a future human man

Daniel chapter 7:8-11 has this bad guy present on earth to witness the second coming and final judgement when the "Books Are Opened"

Daniel chapter 9:27 shows the bad guy will be present on earth to see the "Consummation" or "Ultimate End"

The (Little Horn) of Daniel is a future human man (Unfulfilled)

Daniel 7:8-11AKJV

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.  11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 9:27AKJV

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Edited December 19, 2021 by truth7t7

[JoeCanada]

53 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Ok.. I have no clue what your trying to figure out.

I was just showing you that there is a dispute over who was left after the Diadochi Wars. Some say there were five, some say four but there is disagreement on who the four were, and some say three. And history shows that 3 main kingdoms remained for two hundred years. That's significant. But it doesn't line up with Scripture.

Everyone says Scripture has the final word. I agree.

So why do so many people try to fit things in where they don't belong? It baffles me.

 

44 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

The Wars of the Diadochi: The Battle for Alexander the Great's Legacy https://www.amazon.com/dp/1095491881/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glc_fabc_YBFRRW8ACMHCM9DZK2PR

Thank you for this.

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Charlie,

There is a notable problem with equating Alexander to the shaggy goat in Daniel 8:21.

" The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king...."

Alexander the 111 of Macedonia, he was the 111 Alexander, and he was not the FIRST king, he was the 23 king.

The first king will die and his empire will be split into four. Scripture is very specific..... "first king"...."split into 4"

I have stated numerous times that the outcome of the Wars of the Diadochi was 3 empires. And these 3 empires were significant and they remained for close to two hundred years. There were actually two that were dominant, the Seleucids and Ptolemy. It is only in the writings of theologians where we see the kingdom broken up into 4. Even then, there is disagreement on who the fourth one was. 

Then there is the problem of Antiochus Epiphanes.... King of the Seleucid Empire, and equating him to the little horn.

AE did not cause some of the stars of heaven (angels) to fall to the earth... Dan 8:6

AE didn't magnify himself to be equal to the Prince of Princes and oppose Him, as Jesus was not born for another 160 years....Dan 8:11.... How could he have known about Jesus?

AE did not destroy mighty men and the holy people...Dan 8:24.... Yes, he did persecute the Jews, but he never conquered the Egyptians, and he backed down and turned away from the Romans. He was quite ineffective as a military leader.

AE was not broken without human agency...Dan 8:25... he was defeated by the Maccabees, some say he got sick and died, others say he was defeated by hostile tribesmen.

Prophecy tells us that the little horn will arise when the four nations reaches its end, when the transgressors have run their course...Dab 8:23...as well the angel Gabriel tells us three times that the vision pertains to the end of time...Dan 8:17,19............ Antiochus reigned around 160 BC but the Diadochi continued their reign for another 100 years until the Romans finally acquired the territory.

Almost every book written on Daniel in the first two millennia is flawed. Why do I say that? It's because the book of Daniel was sealed.... and it is only being unsealed since the start of this millennia. We still see thru a glass darky, but  scripture is being opened up more and more. We just have to keep digging.

If some piece of the puzzle doesn't quite fit, getting a bigger hammer won't help. 

Everything has to line up exactly with scripture. 

 

 

 

 

Hey Joe, always good to read your responses! Unlike yourself I am NO history guy. 

I do not have the understanding of Ancient Greece but I thought Alexander’s father conquered the city-states and consolidated them into what we now call Greece. And Alexander took the throne after his father died shortly thereafter- 1st king of Greece?

In any event, if we were to go back to chapter 2 for a minute.... Do you agree that Greece is the 3rd kingdom? ( I believe you do).

Then, do you believe Greece was conquered by Rome? (I think you do). 

Despite all the activity/conflicts and wars, etc., AFTER Alexander’s death, why do you find they cross over to become the 4th kingdom of iron? 

Do you disagree that the metal man image was chosen by God for specific purposes - to establish 4 separate kingdoms identified not only by their metal type, body part section, and also their very specific purpose within HIS Plan of Salvation for mankind?

If you look at the activities that would and have taken place within the first 500 years (0 to 500 AD), after Rome conquered Greece in 2nd century BC, this is when the Messiah arrived, was crucified, resurrected, etc. It is also during this kingdom / time period when the church grew, when the legs of iron began to break down and would be taken over by papal Rome and this ‘little horn’ would arise. 

This same little horn would fulfill (still does) the prophecies in Daniel - think to change times and laws, even goes against the host, and more. 

There are no Greek kings, kingdoms, powers, etc., that could have any connection with the Messiah and these events. 

The Diadochi belongs in the 3rd kingdom of bronze. They can not bleed over the boundaries of chapter 2. 

Joe, let me know your thoughts- I understand you are invested and committed to a non-Roman 4th kingdom... you are not alone on this. 

But would you also mind commenting on my finding or belief that chapter 2 establishes the framework or structure (boundaries and restrictions top to bottom and also between the kingdoms) which must be honored in 7 & 8?

Thanks Joe, best wishes Charlie 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

24 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Scripture strongly suggest Daniel's little horn is a future human man

Hi truth7t7,

Not only is the little horn a future human man, a human ruler,

but he is also a demonic being......

and a political empire.

 It would be an interesting topic for sure.

[angels4u]

7 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi truth7t7,

Not only is the little horn a future human man, a human ruler,

but he is also a demonic being......

and a political empire.

 It would be an interesting topic for sure.

I believe he's alive today ,not possesed yet ,but that will change ,I believe he will come from Europe ,when the world will be in such a mess that they can't fix it,he will come on the scene to be the savior of this world.

[truth7t7]

14 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi truth7t7,

Not only is the little horn a future human man, a human ruler,

but he is also a demonic being......

and a political empire.

 It would be an interesting topic for sure.

Thanks for the response Joe!

I disagree, I believe scripture clearly teaches that the future (Little Horn/Antichrist) will be a (King/Ruler) of (Jewish/Hebrew) decent as seen below

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by truth7t7

[angels4u]

8 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Thanks for the response Joe!

I disagree, I believe scripture clearly teaches that the future (Little Horn/Antichrist) will be a (King/Ruler) of (Jewish/Hebrew) decent as seen below

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

 

 

I had a conversation with a Jewish teacher and asked him who they think the AC is and he told me they accept anybody who can help them economically.