Two questions for pretribulationists

[truth7t7]

52 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You are showing that you do not understand Greek. αὐτός in Greek means both "he" and "it," depending upon the context. And since nothing in the context of Rev. 13 shows that the Beast is definitively a man or a fallen angel, the KJV's use of "he" is purely conjectural, a presumption.

As far as Satan being released from the Abyss as you claim, Rev. 12 shows the contrary, that he is to be cast down from heaven. 12:7-9

 

(The Beast) will be a future human man, that has a human body, that will be cast alive into the lake of fire, this human man is described in Revelation chapter 13 with personal pronouns He, His, Him

As Seen below, (The Beast) is a human man, that has a human body

Revelation 19:19-20AKJV

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 7:11AKJV

I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

[truth7t7]

14 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Strong's definitions are not Scripture. They are just his opinion.

Apollyon/Abaddon is actually the fallen angel Azazel of Leviticus 16.

And you pointedly ignored Satan's being cast down from heaven. If God identifies Satan in Rev. 12 along with his various other names, then there is no reason that He would not also do so in Rev. 9, if he were indeed Abaddon. But He did not, because that is not the case.

So far you claim personal pronouns in the AKJV He, His, Him, in Revelation chapter 13 should be "It", then you denounce Strong's interpretation of Apollyon as being Satan

It appears we have no standard except yours 

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord 

Strong’s Definitions

Ἀπολλύων Apollýōn, ap-ol-loo'-ohn; active participle of G622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):—Apollyon.

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KJV Translation Count — Total: 1x

The KJV translates Strong's G623 in the following manner: Apollyon (1x).

You claimed (The Beast) is released after the 5th Trump, and my response is that the figure seen is (Satan) Abaddon/Apollyon being released as seen below

Satan and The Beast are two different beings, Satan is spiritual, The Beast is mortal human

Revelation 9:11AKJV

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You claimed (The Beast) is released after the 5th Trump, and my response is that the figure seen is (Satan) Abaddon/Apollyon being released as seen below

  

12 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

And you pointedly ignored Satan's being cast down from heaven. If God identifies Satan in Rev. 12 along with his various other names, then there is no reason that He would not also do so in Rev. 9, if he were indeed Abaddon. But He did not, because that is not the case.

End of discussion.

[truth7t7]

4 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

  

End of discussion.

Thanks For The Dialogue, Jesus Is The Lord

Edited December 21, 2021 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

As far as Satan being released from the Abyss as you claim, Rev. 12 shows the contrary, that he is to be cast down from heaven. 12:7-9

 

 

Satan being cast out of heaven is a historical event not future as you suggest, as Jesus clearly explains he witnessed the event "Prior" to his words spoken below, thousands of years ago

Luke 10:18AKJV

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:7-9AKJV

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

RE: Rev. 13:5, the nearest antecedent to the latter HIM is mouth, not the first him. In biblical-speak, a mouth in this sense is a spokesman. God made Aaron the "mouth" for Moses. Ex. 4:14-16

RE: the Beast killing saints, I think "beheading" counts for killing. Rev. 20:4

RE: Rev. 12, this flight comes at the beginning of the Trib., before the Beast comes on the scene. And all in Rev. 7 is likewise before the Beast, which, as I pointed out already, does not arrive until the abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

Wrong. The grammar of the Hebrew, a language with which you are evidently not familiar, requires that the leader of verse 26 is the same as the one of verse 27. The vav-consecutive that begins verse 27 shows this. As explained in the blog entries I posted.

Ah, a King James Only man. Can't help you there. Scholarship did not stop in 1611. I guess then you are convinced that "Easter" is the proper translation for pascha in Acts 12:4. 

But the object of power was "him", not his mouth. The conjunction "and" introduces another subject - him. This is plain language.

You do err. Those of Revelation 20:4 are not stated to be the "saints". Rather, the "saints", those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ", pass through the 1260 days. How could they if they were dead? Much more, the grammar of 13:15-16 allows for a contingent of men to be killed by the Beast. So does Revelation 11 - those who gave God glory at the rapture of the Two Witnesses. You have assumed.

There is no record of the Beast ascending after the fifth trumpet. As a previous king he is a man. He would be in Hades and our Lord has the keys for that. Our Lord is also the "life-giving Spirit" in 1st Corinthians 15:45. Resurrection is not effected by a falling star. Added to this, a department of the bottomless pit is Tartaroo, the place of the angels who sinned at Noah's time. This section could very well be the bottomless pit opened after the 5th trumpet. You have assumed.

You may try to intimidate me with a Doctorate in Hebrew, but overwhelmingly do the best scholars agree on what the English transmits. To claim advanced scholarship is no argument. It is my understanding that textual criticism is a modern ploy to annul God's Word. I'll stick to what the King James scholars thought, despite their mistakes. You see brother, you have ignored a very simple flaw in men in your argument. Peer pressure. From the 49 scholars of the King James to Sir Robert Anderson, no-one willingly translates it incorrectly for fear of lost status. That is what gave energy to textual criticism. It is the text they call into question, not the translation.

So, I'll let my posting stand despite your point of view.

[WilliamL]

On 12/21/2021 at 5:41 PM, AdHoc said:

I'll stick to what the King James scholars thought, despite their mistakes.

Then you will continue to build your arguments upon a foundation of mistakes.

On 12/21/2021 at 5:41 PM, AdHoc said:

no-one willingly translates it incorrectly for fear of lost status. That is what gave energy to textual criticism. It is the text they call into question, not the translation.

However, I don't call the original Hebrew text into question at all; just the incorrect translations thereof, no matter from what version. As should any true scholar. Because otherwise, I will have become just another parrot, parroting out the doctrines and traditions of men.

On 12/21/2021 at 5:41 PM, AdHoc said:

There is no record of the Beast ascending after the fifth trumpet.

But Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 say that the Beast will ascend out of the Abyss. Which Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet. You can just ignore this all you want, but it won't stop it from being true.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Then you will continue to build your arguments upon a foundation of mistakes.

However, I don't call the original Hebrew text into question at all; just the incorrect translations thereof, no matter from what version. As should any true scholar. Because otherwise, I will have become just another parrot, parroting out the doctrines and traditions of men.

But Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 say that the Beast will ascend out of the Abyss. Which Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet. You can just ignore this all you want, but it won't stop it from being true.

A good scholar appreciates a good argument. And good scholars also use reference works. Am I belittled for doing just what any scholar did on his academic journey? And have we not ample proof that some of the best scholars were wrong? Does a good scholar find it strange that a layman follows the majority of accredited scholars? We have, in Daniel 4:35 the following statement by an arch enemy of God;

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Now, my argument is first, is this above statement true? And if so, did this God that I have faith in, keep His correct Word from His servants for 1,900 years? Next, I ask if this great God wanted His people mislead for 1,900 years. And then I academically pit the company of scholars who, in independent groups, and with no agenda except to please the king who wanted to break with Rome, translated the Hebrew - against you. Then I academically pit all the scholars since the AV, who could have objected, and who did not, against you. Who, with your scholarly brilliance, do you think wins?

You might be right, but my faith lies elsewhere.

[WilliamL]

On 12/26/2021 at 3:52 PM, AdHoc said:

You might be right, but my faith lies elsewhere.

Sad. If I "might be right," but you reject it anyway, then your faith lies in men, not the Word.

There were scholars before the AV, and there have been scholars after the AV. Your faith (not any actual evidence) is in those AV scholars, not in the search for truth.

On 12/26/2021 at 3:52 PM, AdHoc said:

And have we not ample proof that some of the best scholars were wrong?

Certainly. And that applies equally to the AV scholars as to others.

[truth7t7]

55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Sad. If I "might be right," but you reject it anyway, then your faith lies in men, not the Word.

There were scholars before the AV, and there have been scholars after the AV. Your faith (not any actual evidence) is in those AV scholars, not in the search for truth.

Certainly. And that applies equally to the AV scholars as to others.

Fact is, 60 God fearing christian scholars were on the KJV committee, that brought forth a masterpiece that has been established for 410 years and going strong

Fact is, the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) that supports almost all new translations NIV, NASB, ESV, Etc, was created by (Kurt & Barbara Aland) adulterers and (Carlo Maria Martini) a roman catholic Jesuit cardinal and homosexual Union supporter

I'll take the 60 God fearing Christian's, you can have the adulterers and homosexual union supporter

Edited December 30, 2021 by truth7t7