Separation of Body and Soul is Unbiblical.

[enoob57]

10 hours ago, Scott Free said:

When the word "psyche" is translated into soul in the Bible it is not being used in a dualistic way. The meaning is still faithful to the Hebrew definition of "nephesh."  

 

2 hours ago, Scott Free said:

That's nice.

my reply was to your comment meaning because of verbal plenary inspiration Paul would not have used two words meaning the same thing... hence the three distinct divisions listed By Spirit through Paul...

[enoob57]

@Starise I think this is a good treatment of your opposed opinion:
 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Language is given by God to transmit ideas. If God says that He made a body from the dust, breathed his breath (which is spirit) into it, and it BECAME a living soul,

 

[Starise]

Just now, enoob57 said:

@Starise I think this is a good treatment of your opposed opinion:
 

 

I'm am not necessarily opposed. I am trying to see why it's always three parts when in many parts of the bible we are mentioned as two. If there are indeed three parts, where does the third part go at death? I tend to think the "soul" has possession of the mind within it.

In the reference you posted God could still breathe His breath into a BODY to make a SOUL.

 

[Starise]

We don't really have a direct comparison to God's make up because ALL of Him is nothing like any of us other than a faint resemblance.

Does God possess a body as 1/3rd of His parts? I never read that expressly in the Bible. What I read is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. He surely can appear in bodily form, but I am not led to believe this is what 1/3rd of Him is.

[Scott Free]

11 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

 

my reply was to your comment meaning because of verbal plenary inspiration Paul would not have used two words meaning the same thing... hence the three distinct divisions listed By Spirit through Paul...

I am not an expert on the subject. I understand a little dualism was introduced, but that is generally discredited by scholars as Platonic/Greek influence and the full body of scripture does not support it. Personal bias in couching translations and the primitive understanding of linguistics in early translations also pose a hurdle.  

[B-B]

1 Thessalonians 5:23

KJV_Strongs(i)

23 G1161 And G846 the very G2316 God G1515 of

peace G37 sanctify [G5659] G5209 you G3651 wholly G2532;

and G5216I pray God your G3648 whole (G4151) spirit

G2532 and (G5590) soul G2532 and (G4983) body

 

 

 

Strong's Concordance 4151

pneuma: wind, spirit

Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Definition: wind, spirit
Usage: wind, breath, spirit.

 

 

Strong's Concordance 4983

sóma: a body

Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh; the body of the Church.

 

Strong's Concordance 5590

psuché: breath, the soul

Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual

Edited December 13, 2021 by B-B

[Starise]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Oh, I got it! Could this possibly be similar to a phrase we use today “kind, body and soul”? I don’t know the actual Greek used in this verse and it’s English translation but I believe it is something meant to be thought of as ‘general’ wish for one to hope for AS OPPOSED to commenting on the construction of a man and what happens to each part of that man.

The reason I brought this up is because, for me, it does not reflect the actual makeup of a man as he was created by God in Genesis. So, this leads me to take this comment that Paul is wishing/praying that all of man is saved and not meant to be proof of man’s construction. If it was then it would have to be in agreement with Genesis and it does not.

Hope that made sense, Charlie 

I would tend to see this the way Charlie sees it here.I mean, it gets kinda weird if we were to think that just MAYBE one of the parts gets accidentally left behind. Of Course we want ALL of us to be in Heaven eventually.  Surely this was not on Paul's mind when he made the statement.

[B-B]

'The things he prays for on behalf of the Thessalonians are their sanctification, that God would sanctify them wholly; and their preservation, that they might be preserved blameless. He prays that they may be wholly sanctified, that the whole man may be sanctified, and then that the whole man, spirit, soul, and body, may be preserved: or, he prays that they may be wholly sanctified, that is, more perfectly, for the best are sanctified but in part while in this world; and therefore we should pray for and press towards complete sanctification. Where the good work of grace is begun, it shall be carried on, be protected and preserved; and all those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus shall be preserved to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And because, if God did not carry on his good work in the soul, it would miscarry, we should pray to God to perfect his work, and preserve us blameless, free from sin and impurity, till at length we are presented faultless before the throne of his glory with exceeding joy.'

Source: https://www.biblecomments.org/c/9/matthew-henrys-whole-bible-commentary/1-thessalonians/5/23

Edited December 13, 2021 by B-B

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

For those who are born again believers in Jesus Christ our soul and spirit goes immediately to heaven. The outer body is buried at death or is cremated or destroyed depending on how a person dies. The outer body will be resurrected at the rapture of the Church to come together with the soul and spirit. 

Thank you! Let me start over since I believe I have severely failed to make any sense ... it must have been late and my brain froze, however, let me try again this morning and see if that was the norm or it was just the wrong time to respond.

There is a formula in Genesis where God describes how He made man. It is, to me, unambiquous and yet I understand how it can still cause some interpretation issues.

Let me know your thoughts on this-especially since if this interpretation is correct, there is no reason to think any words or phrases found later in the Scriptures would think to mean otherwise... they can then be considered as 'ways of getting a certain point across or a figure of speech king of thing.

In Genesis, God took earth and breathed into it and it BECAME a living soul. Meaning A + B = C. (two parts). The confusion, for me, is just what does B include?

Does B include the breath of life which gives the clay its ability to operate both in a physical manner (body) as well as in a mental capacity (call it spirit - lower case)?

If that is so, then we have our A and B identified and the product of those two coming together by the power of God will give us C. Meaning of course, that C is NOT anything of itself but a name given to something just created. If either A or B is lost or taken away then no more C. 

But there IS one more concern to this seemingly unambiguous formula; This creation, unlike the fish, the animals and any other life form on the planet was 'breathed' into A AND thus became a 'living soul' MADE IN HIS IMAGE. There are many interpretations of what that phrase may mean, but the only one that makes the most sense (again just my opinion) is when God 'breathed' into Adam (clay) He ALSO breathed into him the 'Spirit' (capital S) at the same time. This 'S'unlike the small 's' had to represent God's giving or providing this unique creation with 'His Spirit'. First, there was only one action from God and we are also told that Adam was (my terms) seen in a cloud like or spirit like or angelic like (difficult for me to get across at this time) covering. This, to me, would be the most significant part of Adam that represented his 'made in God's image' statement. He was at that time sinless and therefore would be able to 'see God and live' while in this state. So, perhaps we now have a change to man's formula; A + B + B (plus) = C where B (plus) represents God's Holiness or Spirit imparted into Adam at the time of his creation. And to take this a step further, when God made Eve from Adam's rib, this B (plus) also came with it. It had ALL the  same components of Adam - exact same formula. (I think of it and the Trinity (although this is certainly a simple way of trying to understand the Trinity), where you take a match that has already been lite and then take another small stick and place it next to the lite match. The fire will quickly catch on to the small stick and immediately become the same size, temperature, etc., as the lit match. And there is no change or reduction to the original lit match. 

So why bring all this up? Because God has defined the make up of man in Genesis and it can not change because of the use of words in the Scriptures. The ONLY change that takes place is the ONE also found in the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned. Immediately, they realized they were naked - meaning this B (plus) or this outer covering which represented their sinless nature or Holiness breathed into them by God, was taken away or lost. They had to be escorted out of the presence of God without this unique and Holy component imparted into them by God. 

This means that God's Plan of Salvation is to restore us to the original state that He created us - with the B (plus) the Holy Spirit (not to be confused with THE HOLY SPIRIT). Where did this B (plus) go? It went right back to its Giver, God.

Now, Adam has lost  B (plus) but is still alive and breathing and will continue on, but no longer 'holy'. Now when Adam dies, which was never intended to happen as long as he was sinless in this 'shroud like covering', there really is nothing more to occur then C (the living being (I changed it from 'living soul' only to differentiate it by man no longer having B(plus) within him). The body (which is now A + B is turned back to dust or the clay it was formed from. Nothing else to consider sine B (plus) had already been taken from Adam... he was now just 'from the earth' if you will. There was / is no longer a 'Spiritual / Holy' component within him. There still is A  and B (but the B component is just the mental / emotional / intellectual side of man. But this obviously will go away and die no differently than A at the time of death.

When a believer is resurrected by God he will then once again be given the B (plus) God's Holy Spirit within him and be able to be in His presence. For those who rejected Jesus, they too will be resurrected after the 1000 years along with Satan and will be immediately destroyed by HIS brightness since they, without His Holy Spirit (again not THE HOLY SPIRIT) was not restored to them. - Full circle.

Therefore, given this formula in Genesis, and knowing God indeed removed Adam and Eve from the Garden and the only thing lost by them was this B (plus), this is the only thing we need to get back with God. Nothing else can return to God after we die because nothing we are left with after we sinned came from God - it is ALL from the earth and NOTHING UNCLEAN OR UNHOLY COULD EVER BE ALLOWED IN HEAVEN. Only when God 'perfects' us once again will we be allowed to be with Him in heaven.

Just my thoughts, Charlie (look forward to your thoughts).

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Charlie744

[Reinitin]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:53 AM, Scott Free said:

 

"It is generally accepted that in biblical thought there is no separation of body and soul and, consequently, the resurrection of the body is central. The idea of an immortal soul is not a Hebrew concept but comes from Platonic philosophy. It is, therefore, considered a severe distortion of the NT to read this foreign idea into its teaching.", Vogels, "Review of "The Garden of Eden and the Hope of Immortality", by James Barr", Critical Review of Books in Religion, volume 7, p. 80 (1994).

"Indeed, the salvation of the 'immortal soul' has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical. Biblical anthropology is not dualistic but monistic: human being consists in the integrated wholeness of body and soul, and the Bible never contemplates the disembodied existence of the soul in bliss.", Myers (ed.), "The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary", p. 518 (1987).

"A broad consensus emerged among biblical and theological scholars that soul-body dualism is a Platonic, Hellenistic idea that is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible, from cover to cover, promotes what they call the "Hebrew concept of the whole person." G. C. Berkouwer writes that the biblical view is always holistic, that in the Bible the soul is never ascribed any special religious significance. Werner Jaeger writes that soul-body dualism is a bizarre idea that has been read into the Bible by misguided church fathers such as Augustine. Rudolf Bultmann writes that Paul uses the word soma (body) to refer to the whole person, the self, so that there is not a soul and body, but rather the body is the whole thing. This interpretation of Pauline anthropology has been a theme in much subsequent Pauline scholarship.", McMinn & Phillips, "Care for the soul: exploring the intersection of psychology & theology", pp. 107-108 (2001)

 

I would have to disagree with James Barr's perception. He obviously didn't consult the ancient sages and rabbinical teachings to form such a conclusions to speak for all Hebrews belief.

This is a debated topic with 5 different rabbinical teachings and the majority of teachings, have our souls waiting in a place for the resurrection of our body. Now of course their is much debate on exactly where our souls wait.. living is a continuous state. so that which living keeps living (our soul), (our born again spirit)

And that which is dieing keeps dieing till its dead. (Our body).

It think what these authors did. Is the same thing most people do. They create verse doctrins. Which are actually just adding and taking away from God's Word and just like the original offenders of this particular sin. (Adam and eve) will ultimately be proved liers.

Taking Genesis 2:7 and pointing out the actual translation says, He breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a living being. Since the words used for this breath and being is no different then being (animals) that died in a different chapter. So this creates and absolutute truth that proves the creation teachings of the soul communicated by a Greek launguage and understanding in the New Testiment false?

Well, someone should tell James Barr When God Speaks Power is present that creates. God didn't give animals a Command and a choice to operate with  free will. And doesn't the "soul" by any name contain our will, emotions and reasoning? And by eating from the tree we received in our earthen vessels a new corrupted life.

a corrupted self consciousness/ soul seeded by our conterfiet want to be God, Satan? 

Our born again Spirit seeded by Christ, a GOD consciousness?

Our Body is a earthen vessle made to die?

there is a rabbinical teaching Mr Barr should also study. Its about how God forms, deforms, and reforms to perfect. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Reinitin