Nebuchadnezzar - 7 times shall pass over you (Daniel 4:25)

[Charlie744]

55 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks again for your thoughts!! 

There are more than a few explanations..... I have found 7 within the chapter 5 or in an earlier chapter 2 of Daniel. I would ask you to consider the following comments (not all 7 are being mentioned):

1) The time element of 7 years is used because of no more than 3 reasons (at least this is what I found during my study of this chapter) -

                      a) Must be 7 years because many scholars have specifically mentioned there is NO way a 'punishment period' less than 7 years is satisfactory....When I read these comments I was floored given they have essentially determined Nebuchadnezzar must be punished for a time period OF THEIR SATISFACTION. A day or a week just would not do but they COULD consider a period of 7 months.... (Nothing more than that!!!!),

                     b) The infamous year for a day principle that certainly can be found in Scripture but unfortunately, it has been and is being applied in almost every prophetic verse where there is a time element (especially Daniel). It is clear the 70 weeks prophecy is in years and is equal to 490 years with the 3 sections specifically identified or carved out. The ONLY other time element in Daniel that is to be applied in years is the 'time, times and 1/2 time --- but that is NOT the ONLY issue with that time prophecy. All other time elements in Daniel are in days.

 

 

 

 

 

37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.

I apologize ... I do not know what I hit but apparently this response above represented ONLY A PARTIAL / INCOMPLETE REPLY TO THIS ISSUE...  I will be sending when completed and as intended. Sorry again, Charlie

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is no other explanation. I am the first to admit it. Daniel was an Hebrew prophet speaking to the Gentiles (that is why Chapters 2 to 7 are in Aramaic). It is generally accepted that besides the scriptures I gave you, the time from the command by Artaxerxes to the death of Jesus was 483 years exactly, giving more support for the day/year of prophecy.

I would advance another proof by saying that Nebuchadnezzar is a Type of the Beast, and he is the Beast for a seven, which the half, says John, some 600 years later, is a "time, times and a half a time". But I am hesitant to form doctrine from a Type.

Although I regard every word in scripture to be calculated by God, I cannot connect feathers and claws to time.

If you have a theory, I'm open.

Thanks again for your thoughts!! 

There are more than a few explanations..... I have found 7 within the chapter 5 or in an earlier chapter 2 of Daniel. I would ask you to consider the following comments (not all 7 are being mentioned):

1) The time element of 7 years is considered the “accepted interpretation’ for Nebuchadnezzar’s punishment period based one of the following 3 reasons (at least this is what I found during my study of this chapter from the scholars, academics writings on this issue):

                      a) Must be 7 years because many scholars have specifically mentioned there is NO way a 'punishment period' less than 7 years is satisfactory....When I read these comments I was floored given they have essentially determined Nebuchadnezzar must be punished for a time period OF THEIR SATISFACTION. A day or a week just would not do but they COULD consider a period of 7 months.... (Nothing more than that!!!!),

                     b) The infamous year for a day principle (Y-F-D) that certainly can be found in Scripture but unfortunately, it has been and is being applied in almost every prophetic verse where there is a time element (especially Daniel). It is clear the 70 weeks prophecy is in years and is equal to 490 years with the 3 sections specifically identified or carved out. The ONLY other time element in Daniel that is to be applied in years is the 'time, times and 1/2 time --- but that is NOT the ONLY issue with identifying that specific time prophecy. All other time elements in Daniel are in days.  It is easy to claim a ‘Y-F-D’ principle because there are applications found earlier in the Scriptures and Daniel (70 weeks), but that does not prove anything.  In fact, the 2300, 1260, 1290 and the 1335 HAVE ALSO ALL DETERMINED TO MEAN YEARS FOR THIS SAME ‘Y-F-D’ principle…. Instead of looking at the context and finding what the verse and associated time element refers to.

                   c) The third reason some scholars contend in must be in years is because they believe the ‘feathers and claws’ comment could only work if there was sufficient time for them to grow …. Could not grow the feathers and claws in days, weeks or even months – must be years. However, if one wants to argue that point, which I do not, both the feathers and the claws are more than capable of growing to maturity within 7 months (depending on the bird). However, a year is certainly more than what would be needed.

Consequently, one or all of the above have been identified to support a 7 year time period associated with Nebuchadnezzar’s punishment period.

 

 

 

 

(a)    This reason essentially inserts THEIR (scholars, academics, etc.,) opinion on what constitutes a reasonable or necessary period of time justice for Nebuchadnezzar. This should be immediately ignored.  A quick response could reference the scene in chapter 3 where Nebuchadnezzar demanded the furnace be heated 7 times. Here ‘times’ is used for intensity.  Nebuchadnezzar experienced his chapter 4 visions in ONE evening – God certainly could have ensured the ‘intensity’ of his ONE evening nightmare by extending it to a 7 day punishment period. 

 

Additionally, there is not one person on this planet who has not experienced at least one horrific nightmare. A nightmare that we would swear was as real as anything we would experience.  I feel quite comfortable saying that his experience in the fields, in the night air, during the entire daytime, eating grass like an oxen, water only from the grass, no one to talk with or communicate, all alone for those 7 nights (and all of this took place in the blink of any eye – he had absolutely NO warning. One minute he is on the balcony, the next he is in the field with the animals).  I am fairly sure those 7 days had sufficient intensity built within them.

 

 

(b)    The “Y-T-D” principle is simply not to be applied here. There is no corroborating language or support in any of chapter 4 verses.  There simply is no substance behind it… just a claim because no one has come up with an alternative…

 

(c)  The feathers and claws reference is quite weak. First of all it does NOT say he ‘GREW feathers or claws’ but till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.’

This metaphor is NOT to be used as a “time element’. It does not refer to time but specifically to an earlier verse in chapter 2 (below). The verses in chapter 2 tell us it is God who gives everything to Nebuchadnezzar… but in chapter 4 (also below) those 3 ‘gifts’ by God to Nebuchadnezzar are being taken away in the same ORDER.

Chapter 4 is all about Nebuchadnezzar’s refusal to acknowledge it is God who gave him everything and when he took credit for every benefit associated with the Babylonian Kingdom,  God immediately took these 3 gifts away and made him aware of God’s grace and power. He removed him from people; he made him like a beast or bird that he HAD BEEN GIVEN POWER OVER, ETC. (referencing chapter 2). Consequently, the claws and feathers are NOT a time element to point to for supporting a 7 year period. THESE 3 GIFTS ARE TO BE TREATED TOGETHER AS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM NEBUCHADNEZZAR THAT WERE GIVEN TO HIM IN CHAPTER 2.

 

Here are the two verses in chapter 2 and 4 and you can easily see their connection:

Daniel 2: 37  You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.

Daniel 4:33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.

 

For me, not one of the 3 reasons (above) hold any water and have no value in supporting a definition of the length of period associated with ‘times’ in chapter 4.

As I mentioned, there are 7 to be found within chapter 4 and 2 (the one in chapter 2 is mentioned above to refute the ‘claws and feathers’ claim.  I will mention one of the remaining 6 which by itself should provide all the support one needs to confirm ‘times’ is indeed days:

If you study chapter 4, you will come to understand there are a few really neat reasons why God had Nebuchadnezzar write this chapter as opposed to Daniel. One of the reasons pertains specifically to this issue and removes all doubt (my opinion). If you were to carve up this chapter into 3 very specific sections, you will find the following:

a)     Nebuchadnezzar is actually writing his OWN THOUGHTS,

b)     Nebuchadnezzar is actually writing exactly what he saw in the visions – he is writing no more or no less than what God wants him to see and record. This words are NOT his own.

c)      Nebuchadnezzar is actually writing exactly what Daniel was told by God in the visions he was shown by God. These were the exact words from God to Daniel and recorded by Nebuchadnezzar.

If you were to repeat the steps I had taken to break each verse down into one of these three categories or sections, you will find that Nebuchadnezzar (b) above or Daniel (c) above were words that came directly from God (describing the visions, punishments, etc.). They all came from God but recorded by Nebuchadnezzar. In every verse (a) or (b) God will ONLY use the word ‘times’…. Nothing else, He will never elaborate or move off of that one word when referring to the punishment period.

 

 

The ONLY verse that commits to the definition of “time” is when Nebuchadnezzar SPEAKS AND WRITES HIS OWN THOUGHTS AND WORDS. Nebuchadnezzar will tell us himself how long the punishment period was. When this is coupled with the other reasons why God had Nebuchadnezzar write chapter 4 they will all complement each other.

4:34 and at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven,

 

There are 5 more reasons supporting ‘times’ as days, but that is for another day, Charlie

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks again for your thoughts!! 

There are more than a few explanations..... I have found 7 within the chapter 5 or in an earlier chapter 2 of Daniel. I would ask you to consider the following comments (not all 7 are being mentioned):

1) The time element of 7 years is considered the “accepted interpretation’ for Nebuchadnezzar’s punishment period based one of the following 3 reasons (at least this is what I found during my study of this chapter from the scholars, academics writings on this issue):

                      a) Must be 7 years because many scholars have specifically mentioned there is NO way a 'punishment period' less than 7 years is satisfactory....When I read these comments I was floored given they have essentially determined Nebuchadnezzar must be punished for a time period OF THEIR SATISFACTION. A day or a week just would not do but they COULD consider a period of 7 months.... (Nothing more than that!!!!),

                     b) The infamous year for a day principle (Y-F-D) that certainly can be found in Scripture but unfortunately, it has been and is being applied in almost every prophetic verse where there is a time element (especially Daniel). It is clear the 70 weeks prophecy is in years and is equal to 490 years with the 3 sections specifically identified or carved out. The ONLY other time element in Daniel that is to be applied in years is the 'time, times and 1/2 time --- but that is NOT the ONLY issue with identifying that specific time prophecy. All other time elements in Daniel are in days.  It is easy to claim a ‘Y-F-D’ principle because there are applications found earlier in the Scriptures and Daniel (70 weeks), but that does not prove anything.  In fact, the 2300, 1260, 1290 and the 1335 HAVE ALSO ALL DETERMINED TO MEAN YEARS FOR THIS SAME ‘Y-F-D’ principle…. Instead of looking at the context and finding what the verse and associated time element refers to.

                   c) The third reason some scholars contend in must be in years is because they believe the ‘feathers and claws’ comment could only work if there was sufficient time for them to grow …. Could not grow the feathers and claws in days, weeks or even months – must be years. However, if one wants to argue that point, which I do not, both the feathers and the claws are more than capable of growing to maturity within 7 months (depending on the bird). However, a year is certainly more than what would be needed.

Consequently, one or all of the above have been identified to support a 7 year time period associated with Nebuchadnezzar’s punishment period.

 

 

 

 

(a)    This reason essentially inserts THEIR (scholars, academics, etc.,) opinion on what constitutes a reasonable or necessary period of time justice for Nebuchadnezzar. This should be immediately ignored.  A quick response could reference the scene in chapter 3 where Nebuchadnezzar demanded the furnace be heated 7 times. Here ‘times’ is used for intensity.  Nebuchadnezzar experienced his chapter 4 visions in ONE evening – God certainly could have ensured the ‘intensity’ of his ONE evening nightmare by extending it to a 7 day punishment period. 

 

Additionally, there is not one person on this planet who has not experienced at least one horrific nightmare. A nightmare that we would swear was as real as anything we would experience.  I feel quite comfortable saying that his experience in the fields, in the night air, during the entire daytime, eating grass like an oxen, water only from the grass, no one to talk with or communicate, all alone for those 7 nights (and all of this took place in the blink of any eye – he had absolutely NO warning. One minute he is on the balcony, the next he is in the field with the animals).  I am fairly sure those 7 days had sufficient intensity built within them.

 

 

(b)    The “Y-T-D” principle is simply not to be applied here. There is no corroborating language or support in any of chapter 4 verses.  There simply is no substance behind it… just a claim because no one has come up with an alternative…

 

(c)  The feathers and claws reference is quite weak. First of all it does NOT say he ‘GREW feathers or claws’ but till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.’

This metaphor is NOT to be used as a “time element’. It does not refer to time but specifically to an earlier verse in chapter 2 (below). The verses in chapter 2 tell us it is God who gives everything to Nebuchadnezzar… but in chapter 4 (also below) those 3 ‘gifts’ by God to Nebuchadnezzar are being taken away in the same ORDER.

Chapter 4 is all about Nebuchadnezzar’s refusal to acknowledge it is God who gave him everything and when he took credit for every benefit associated with the Babylonian Kingdom,  God immediately took these 3 gifts away and made him aware of God’s grace and power. He removed him from people; he made him like a beast or bird that he HAD BEEN GIVEN POWER OVER, ETC. (referencing chapter 2). Consequently, the claws and feathers are NOT a time element to point to for supporting a 7 year period. THESE 3 GIFTS ARE TO BE TREATED TOGETHER AS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM NEBUCHADNEZZAR THAT WERE GIVEN TO HIM IN CHAPTER 2.

 

Here are the two verses in chapter 2 and 4 and you can easily see their connection:

Daniel 2: 37  You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.

Daniel 4:33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.

 

For me, not one of the 3 reasons (above) hold any water and have no value in supporting a definition of the length of period associated with ‘times’ in chapter 4.

As I mentioned, there are 7 to be found within chapter 4 and 2 (the one in chapter 2 is mentioned above to refute the ‘claws and feathers’ claim.  I will mention one of the remaining 6 which by itself should provide all the support one needs to confirm ‘times’ is indeed days:

If you study chapter 4, you will come to understand there are a few really neat reasons why God had Nebuchadnezzar write this chapter as opposed to Daniel. One of the reasons pertains specifically to this issue and removes all doubt (my opinion). If you were to carve up this chapter into 3 very specific sections, you will find the following:

a)     Nebuchadnezzar is actually writing his OWN THOUGHTS,

b)     Nebuchadnezzar is actually writing exactly what he saw in the visions – he is writing no more or no less than what God wants him to see and record. This words are NOT his own.

c)      Nebuchadnezzar is actually writing exactly what Daniel was told by God in the visions he was shown by God. These were the exact words from God to Daniel and recorded by Nebuchadnezzar.

If you were to repeat the steps I had taken to break each verse down into one of these three categories or sections, you will find that Nebuchadnezzar (b) above or Daniel (c) above were words that came directly from God (describing the visions, punishments, etc.). They all came from God but recorded by Nebuchadnezzar. In every verse (a) or (b) God will ONLY use the word ‘times’…. Nothing else, He will never elaborate or move off of that one word when referring to the punishment period.

 

 

The ONLY verse that commits to the definition of “time” is when Nebuchadnezzar SPEAKS AND WRITES HIS OWN THOUGHTS AND WORDS. Nebuchadnezzar will tell us himself how long the punishment period was. When this is coupled with the other reasons why God had Nebuchadnezzar write chapter 4 they will all complement each other.

4:34 and at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven,

 

There are 5 more reasons supporting ‘times’ as days, but that is for another day, Charlie

OK. I can see that you have put a lot of thought and time into this matter. I never deemed the matter of Nebuchadnezzar's chastisement crucial except to teach us that God maintains sovereignty over the governments and governors of this earth. This is especially pertinent as God is never called the "God of this earth" in Daniel. The Lord's House was destroyed. He had withdrawn His glory from it and Israel, and Judah was under another king. God is called, "the God of heaven" in Daniel, but Daniel's prophecies teach us just how this great God remains sovereign over this earth even when His people  have deserted Him.

I would not diminish the lesson about how long the Head of Gold was among the Beasts, but I would rather seek to know why God, Who is so economical with His Words, even told us about Nebuchadnezzar's hair and finger nails. There must be a lesson there.

[truth7t7]

On 12/31/2021 at 6:17 AM, AdHoc said:

OK. I can see that you have put a lot of thought and time into this matter. I never deemed the matter of Nebuchadnezzar's chastisement crucial except to teach us that God maintains sovereignty over the governments and governors of this earth. This is especially pertinent as God is never called the "God of this earth" in Daniel. The Lord's House was destroyed. He had withdrawn His glory from it and Israel, and Judah was under another king. God is called, "the God of heaven" in Daniel, but Daniel's prophecies teach us just how this great God remains sovereign over this earth even when His people  have deserted Him.

I would not diminish the lesson about how long the Head of Gold was among the Beasts, but I would rather seek to know why God, Who is so economical with His Words, even told us about Nebuchadnezzar's hair and finger nails. There must be a lesson there.

The 70 week prophecy isnt years Charlie, ifthat was so Daniel would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks)

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The 70 week prophecy isnt years Charlie, ifthat was so Daniel would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks)

It is true that if we wrote the Bible we would do it according to the intellect of men. We like sequence and chronology. But we are not asked our opinion in the things of God. He wrote it like that and kept a precedent that He has used before.

Edited January 3, 2022 by AdHoc

[luigi]

On 12/30/2021 at 1:38 AM, Charlie744 said:

In Daniel 4:25, Nebuchadnezzar is told, 

"They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you.."

There are relatively few theories on what this time element means, but almost 100% of folks believe that 'times' must represent 'years'.

Does anyone have an opinion on this AND can share their theory or reason (s) for it?

Thank you, Charlie

In Revelation 12:6, there are 1260 days in which the woman experiences travail/tribulation. In Revelation 12:14, these 1260 days are explained constituting a time (1), and times (2), and half a time (1/2), totaling 3.5 times in which the woman experiences travail/tribulation.

When we divide the 1260 days by the 3.5 times, we see that each time equals 360 days. A shortened year.

By the way, these 3.5 times also appear in Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7.

Edited January 3, 2022 by luigi

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, luigi said:

In Revelation 12:6, there are 1260 days in which the woman experiences travail/tribulation. In Revelation 12:14, these 1260 days are explained constituting a time (1), and times (2), and half a time (1/2), totaling 3.5 times in which the woman experiences travail/tribulation.

When we divide the 1260 days by the 3.5 times, we see that each time equals 360 days. A shortened year.

By the way, these 3.5 times also appear in Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7.

Thank you for your thoughts!

if I may suggest... try and leave Revelation out of your thoughts for now and concentrate on Daniel chapter 4 only. There is enough information in 4 to determine what ‘times’ refers to. 

There are no less than 7 reasons in chapter 4 (with 1 reason used in combination with 4 from chapter 2) to prove it is not years. 

In almost every chapter in Daniel almost all folks skip ahead to verses in Revelation to interpret Daniel... 

Yes they must agree but Daniel must drive Revelation - that is the way God structured the Scriptures. 

Charlie

[luigi]

There are those of us who look for light with the correlations in the Word the Lord provides us with, and there are those who prefer darkness by not acknowledging the correlations in the Word.

1 John 4:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Markie51]

I agree also that "seven times" means seven years.

[luigi]

39 minutes ago, Markie51 said:

I agree also that "seven times" means seven years.

Yes, but shortened to 360 days for each time/year.