False teachers

[Alive]

36 minutes ago, Josheb said:

So when you turn on your radio and hear a preacher indicting the body of Christ realize he is part of the problem because he is teaching a false ecclesiology. 

Yes and to the related comments you made.

This is a grievous thing and causes pain and mourning in me. There is so much of it in so many corners and we see it here near every day.

Christ's Body and Church is Glorious from His heavenly view, but has always been messy on earth. ANd yet, there are and have been wonderful expressions all over the world.

[debrakay]

3 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

@Starise   Very good post.

I think too that in the best teachers both the message and the messenger are solid.  A solid message is extensive knowledge and experience built into understanding that grows into wisdom.  A solid messenger is one in whom the fruit of the Spirit is readily apparent and who is capable of explaining the message to hearers in a variety of ways that get the main points across.

Last night I had determined I was not going to respond to this thread any longer but then you and @Starise made comments that stirred my spirit this morning.

I do not know if you or @Starise have been or are teachers of others but what would you do if someone came to you and asked you, "Would you start a Bible study because I understand the Bible because of the way you speak and explain it" even though you have never been the leader of a Bible study before?  

This was a question asked of me in the summer of 2018.  I started the Bible study and now 2 of the twelve women in the group (a 40 year old and a 65 year old) have been baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit.  There are still a couple more that have not been baptized but the Holy Spirit is moving on them.  The rest are all born again but several are not members of churches.  This is a non-denominational group of ladies ages 35 to 85 who are seeking a closer relationship to Jesus. 

I could not say no then but today I question whether I am truly qualified to speak and help guide 12 women in scripture even though I have had over 50 years of experience with God and His word.  Being called a false teacher has wounded my heart and confidence but I would like to hear thoughts and advice from the actual teachers here. 

What do you do if and when someone tells you that you are wrong in your teaching, that you are wrongly interpreting certain scriptures, and proceed to say you should not be teaching others?

[Thornbird]

Something that might assist in getting closer to what is the matter of today's church is to remember Yeshua and his Disciples.

Yeshua was God, and God was their teacher. 

Then, when it was time, Yeshua washed and anointed their feet. That they would be blessed and appointed as his Apostles and to then go into all the world and bring his good news so that those whom God predestined to receive it could be saved.

Notice they were, like Yeshua, itinerate teachers. They journeyed about the middle east and beyond and preached the gospel. 

They didn't go forth and establish church structures and remain in residence as pastors.

Jesus stands at the door of God's Elect and knocks. 

In that well known painting that depicts  the passage from Revelation 3 how many have noticed one very subtle missing feature? 

There is no doorknob on Jesus' side of the door.

He knows our address. We open the door. 

Each one of us are the church. We are temples indwelt by the most high from the moment God willed us conceived 

If you believe life starts at conception you know this.

Maybe the reason some denominational churches are in trouble, the reason churches are losing members, is because God never intended us to manufacture a group think, a collective, of the faithful gathering on a day not the Sabbath. Being told by one appointed member how to understand text in a book compiled over a period of 1500 years, and written by over 40 different men. And according to how that appointed one was taught to understand it when they attended divinity college, or the like.

You see, we're all here on this one of many forums. Gathered as believers in Christ, convinced we are saved, in Christ, and he in us. 

And we discuss any number of bible topics as we each personally understand them.

And then, because naturally, when personal understanding is naturally taken personally we find ourselves making what only seems to be objective observations regarding the difference between teachers and not. And requisite humility and not. 

Yet each one of us who enters into a discussion regarding Apologetics, Soteriology, Exegesis, etc...and explain our beliefs as we understand those topics are acting as teachers. And not as humble receptive students.

Because while we may say something that  implies or states we are receptive to another's pov, how many of us here have stated we were wrong in our understanding? And accept another's perspective while vacating our own.

Because when we enter a debate of this nature, we're not asking to be taught what we are already defending as our personal knowledge.

Genuine debate, the rules, proceed from an impersonal detached platform.

What we're engaging in here is a matter of deeply personal relationship with God, and as relates to the eternal destiny of our own soul.

Threads proceed for sometimes dozens of pages. One Christian forum I know of has a thread about works salvation that has carried on for years. And has thousands of pages of replies.

The topic itself, as is the case with all bible topics, is answered by God in the bible. Yet, it isn't that easy because works salvation is a topic in scripture that is answered twice. And in contradiction to one another.

As is every topic as relates to the Gospel in the bible.

And that is why we argue,debate, taking our individual understanding of scripture personally.

Because each one of us is sure we understand. And while we may appreciate someone else's perspective, and even adopt it, we are still convinced we, each one of us, knows what salvation is, what it means to be saved, and are so.

What we're defending is written, and are told to believe Jesus said was put into print by the hands of men, the judgement of councils, and the politics of governments.

How many here have said, I believe in the bible?

God is everywhere. All that exists is evidence. God leads us to the awareness of that Holy Spirit that is innate in all creation and created. 

That door God knocks on is our consciousness. Arriving at that awareness, that we are never separated from our innate source, is opening that door.

"We would never know of Jesus if not for the bible. "

If that is something that ran through your mind after reading this far, you missed it.

Man divided the church of God by inventing a devisive doctrine that makes a creator of all things to have predestined some of us to eternal damnation and special others unto eternal glory. Prejudged, predestined, to be all that God created us to be by his will and plan. The ultimate, Us vs. Them.

When all that exists is both of and from Creator, how does God damn and save himself?

He doesn't. Yet, that segregation of the human race has pitted us against one another for thousands of years. When in truth we all come from the same place; God.

 

The bible is the compass, as God wills. 

 It shows you where to look to find what is eternally there. God. But it isn't to be believed in. Because that misses the point and is idolatry.

If you believe the bible leads you to salvation, that is why you debate and ever shall.

Over 2000 years since Yeshua, and the world is worse now. Not better for it.

Because we hold up the ideal of bettering ourselves by believing we have to stay within the parameters of a template men designed to make slaves of the world, and masters of those who claim they know how to teach us to get free of our chains.

Because we're defending the doctrine formed in the image and likeness of men. It's why they determined there are things you are forbidden to know according to their determination. "Non-Canonical", Apocrypha.

The Holy Spirit is within and always has been. Because all things are both of and from Holy Spirit.

That's that good news that saves us from the illusion we're born damned unless we're deemed, predestined, to be made better by the creator that made us damned first because of  Adam's "choice".

While it was God that created the tree of knowledge in the garden, and created a law against eating of it. 

People will insist God didn't predestine all things. Not even that. 

But if you read the Bible you know how much of it is prophecy. What is prophecy but God telling you what he has planned.

What is Salvation according to the bible given that? Asking God to save you from God.

Because the Devil doesn't judge us and send us to Heaven or Hell. 

And we don't send ourselves to either place either because left to our human nature, we're already damned because we were born to be sinners. By God's will. Else, rather than wait thousands of years he'd have forgiven Eve and Adam for being led to disobedience, and sent the Devil away rather than have already made him lord of this world God intended humans to inhabit.

Why do we argue over the bible? Maybe because that is God's way of telling us to stop believing in what's on the page. And instead listen to what is preaching from within.

If God is love why were you damned for being born human, by God's will?

That's what's kept the church of man in business all these years.

We fight because we're scared to die wrong.

Don't worry. God always speaks "his" (gender pronouns apply to a spirit? No.) truth no matter where or what seeks to obscure it.

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

"Be ye holy as I am holy." Jesus.

That wasn't a command, that was a reminder. 

You are born human.And as is all creation, and created, you are both of and from God.

Amen.😇

And farewell .

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Thornbird

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

I didn’t know there was anyone greater or lesser, greater or lesser gifts.

What does that mean even?

We are all parts of the body who all need each other..the Body being Christ.

 

Can you explain what you mean by greater or lesser please?..thanks.

 

Maybe you mean greater responsibility?

and not what I think you mean as in a person is greater because he’s a teacher..than he who is a witness.?

 

We are.. “all “..equal as human beings.

Education different story.

 

1 Corinthians 12:31.

Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

And yet I will show you the most excellent way..

 

 

Well I'll do my best to answer.  As we know God gives spiritual gifts as He pleases....some gifts are 'greater' or 'better' than others. For example where it says the one who prophecies is greater than one who speaks in tongues.  It doesn't mean the individual souls are any more or less valid or loved by Him.  Jesus also spoke of the greatest and least in the kingdom.  A few places in scripture where the idea of  'greater or  lesser' is spoken of or implied.

  Haven't really thought it through but probably greater gifts carry more authority I would think and have more impact.   I agree that the greater the gifting the greater the responsiblity and influence.....since the word says be not many teachers because they will be judged more strictly.

But we're not to be 'respecters of persons' and all are to prefer others over themselves...the scripture says even who we might think of as the most 'feeble' among us are necessary in the Body.  In God's economy the last will be first and the first will be last.  From what I understand it's not about what measure of grace we start out with, it's about how we walk, whether we are obedient to Him, and how we go about exercising our gifts, etc.  Someone can have great gifts but be corrupt in how they live or function in the church.  Gifts in themselves are not a stamp of God's approval or esteem towards the individual.  (Thinking of where Jesus spoke of those who would say," Lord, Lord, did we not do thus and such for you."  Doesn't seem He measures us by our gifts in themselves, even though the gifts may be greater or lesser.)

Edited January 4, 2022 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Yes and to the related comments you made.

This is a grievous thing and causes pain and mourning in me. There is so much of it in so many corners and we see it here near every day.

Christ's Body and Church is Glorious from His heavenly view, but has always been messy on earth. ANd yet, there are and have been wonderful expressions all over the world.

Well, can't help but wonder whether Paul was wrong the many times he called out the churches on different things and told them to pull up their socks?  Was he being an accuser or was he obeying the Lord who says to provoke one another unto GOOD works and to preach the word, rebuke, reprove etc with all longsuffering?  Most of the western church today has wandered off the narrow path...that's not an accusation or condemnation but an observation.  I don't think it would be helpful at all to ignore the problem and pretend it isn't happening.  There are plenty of well respected preachers of the past who also saw and spoke about the problems they saw in the church of their day.   And God can give discernment even to "nobody's".

Edited January 4, 2022 by Heleadethme

[TheBlade]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:04 PM, other one said:

Problem is who gets to decide what is false and what is not.

You nailed it huh. A simple doctrine now will get you labeled as false teacher. "Yeshua/Jesus coming in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried. Rose the 3rd day and is seated at the right hand of the Father. The only way to the Father".  This is where I always take my stand. Anyone that does not believe this are not of God. A teacher to prophet or apostle... God has not given me authority over them. God does not require them to listen to me. My words have no weight. 

At the start they USE to ask that person saying "thus says the lord" or the like " who are you? Who knows you? How long have you walked in what you preach/teach?" Then they would all go pray for a long time. PLEASE I don't mean this to anyone here lol.. just popped up in my heart.. there are allot of busy bodies in the Church. How many even go to Church any more or home Church for that matter. Then how many meet hours before to pray? 

So whats a false teacher? Over the years seems to come down to what you personally believe and then those that teach differently. In all the questions we might have what did WE do? Well did we take this question before the lord and pray seek ask Him then wait on Him see what He says? 

[GandalfTheWise]

53 minutes ago, debrakay said:

I could not say no then but today I question whether I am truly qualified to speak and help guide 12 women in scripture even though I have had over 50 years of experience with God and His word.  Being called a false teacher has wounded my heart and confidence but I would like to hear thoughts and advice from the actual teachers here. 

What do you do if and when someone tells you that you are wrong in your teaching, that you are wrongly interpreting certain scriptures, and proceed to say you should not be teaching others?

A number of thoughts that I'll try to organize somewhat.

There will always be someone who will point to just about anything any Christian teaches or proclaims and find fault with it.   Some will even nit-pick a new believer's enthusiastic testimony because they have a theological disagreement with using of one of the terms like "born-again", "born anew", "received Christ", "accepted Christ into my heart", "became a Christian", "made Jesus Lord of my life" or "gave my heart to the Lord".  Seriously, over the years, I've heard someone somewhere complain about just about every common term used for some reason or another.  It's a bit of an exaggeration, but not too far off the mark, that just about anything you teach will have a critic in some way... some more vocal and lacking in obvious fruit of the Spirit than others.  I tend to take into account the messenger when evaluating the message.

The main measures I have on myself are something like this.  Am I pointing people toward Christ (versus gaining converts to my way of thinking)?  Am I inspiring and encouraging someone to grow in Christ (versus creating dependence in them upon me as a teacher)?  Do people more deeply care, love, respect, and work with other believers due to my teaching (versus forming groups that argue with other groups)?  Is my teaching rooted in the day to day living experiences of being in Christ (of both  myself and the countless Christians I've known over the years) or is it rooted in trying to be a doctrinal authority?   Am I stirring hearts to follow Christ or am I reeling off intellectual opinions on various topics?   Am I more concerned with real spiritual fruit and growth in people's lives versus making sure people are "right" in every detail of what they believe?  

Bottom line, do I see God's hand in someone's life as the main thing driving change in their life versus seeing my teaching ability or opinions as the main thing driving change?

With regards to correct doctrine, I think there is a lot of wisdom in the old saying (which shows up in a lot of forms), In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, love.   There are some things that pretty much everyone Christian agrees that they believe.  In contrast, there are the distinctive doctrines which vary from church to church and denomination to denomination that Christians argue about (usually under the guise of what the Bible "really" teaches on a particular topic and reasons why our church or denomination is better than others).  I try to keep most of my focus on the core things that all Christians agree on and try to act as a peacekeeper on those things that will tear the body of Christ asunder.  This very much affects how I deal with people who disagree with me.  I try to look deeper than the surface argument or criticism and see what the core issue might be and how to resolve it, because ultimately I have an obligation as a Christian to as much as possible be at peace with other believers.  I personally have backed off many non-essentials (except for a peacemaking role) simply because I was burning too many bridges.

If the people you are ministering to are growing in Christ with visible growth of spiritual fruit and changes in their lives, you're doing something right.  There is always room for improvement and change and moving forward as a teacher.  With regard to when criticism is godly or ungodly, I think the usual distinction is that godly criticism ultimately leads to encouragement and growth whereas ungodly criticism ultimately leads to discouragement and giving up.  Similarly, ungodly flattery will lead to complacence and arrogance and self-focus whereas godly encouragement will lead to more improvement and a rejoicing in what has happened in others.   Now, these aren't 100% fast and firm because sometimes God does things to get us out of ruts that are rather drastic at times and can feel discouraging for a time, but I'd say typically it's about the long term effect of things.

[other one]

I would be terrified to say "Thus says the Lord."  It seems he will hold people responsible for what comes next.

Personally I am a Romans 10 salvation believer...    We must believe he was raised from the dead, but just as importantly declare with our mouth that he is Lord.....   meaning our personal Lord in my opinion.

I know lots of people who believe he is who he says he is and was killed and resurrected, but don't seem to have made that Lord of their life thing.   I find that really bothersome for I know when I was in that state I don't think I was really saved.  Can't speak for others but it was a real transition the night I said, "I can't do this myself....  I'm yours no matter what."  Only question I have now is what's he going to do with me.

[debrakay]

I wish one of the "wise teachers" on here would have given me this scripture in John when I made comments about Mark 13:22 and the possible deception of the elect.  But praise God, the Holy Spirit kept prodding me for 24 hours to figure it out which I am grateful for because wisdom, knowledge and truth are what I seek.

John 10:27-30 (NKJV)

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

Called.  Chosen. And never deceived or snatched away.  I am no longer concerned one little bit about Mark 13:22 of the deception to come at the end times if I am still on this earth. 

I am a learner not a teacher.

[GandalfTheWise]

1 hour ago, debrakay said:

I am a learner not a teacher.

The day a teacher ceases to be a learner they cease to be a teacher.  A teacher is first and foremost a learner and is simply a learner who has learned enough to have something to offer those who haven't learned as much.