A Prewrath Rapture question

[transmogrified]

48 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 This means that the dead in Christ DO NOT rise at the same time as when those that are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the clouds.   The dead in Christ rise at the first trumpet and then the living are caught up at the last trumpet,  and together they are all changed.

Aside from the different words used, whether awake or rise or resurrection, we can tell from the context what is being meant. Like when it says the dead in Christ rise first, it can be understood that this word does not mean resurrection from the dead, but we can also know that they couldn't first rise into heaven if they hadn't first been resurrected. I mean he is not going to raise up a limp dead body up into the heaven...they have to have been quickened or resurrected from the dead....

It is explained good in the two witnesses ....they were physically killed, they laid dead in the street for 3.5 days, and then it says 'the spirit of Life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet...At this point they had been resurrected and received their glorified body but had not yet ascended...then they heard a voice 'come up hither' and then they ascended visibly in those glorified bodies up to heaven.

But it doesn't change the premise of my question, in that you still have two groups of people who are resurrected / raised from the dead at two different times. Is this not correct?

 

 

[truth7t7]

14 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Yes. 

The PuP 

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Rev 20:5 KJV But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This verse defines the first resurrection.   It is those who do NOT have to wait a thousand years to live again. 

Rev 20:6 KJV Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse characterizes those who participate in the first resurrection.   They are blessed and holy... not cursed and unholy.  

The wicked, who are resurrected,  are in no case blessed and holy.   The wicked are resurrected at a different time than the holy.   So,  unless your idea of a thousand years is shorter than one day in length,  the wicked and holy are raised on different days.   The simple answer is that the "thousand years", [however figurative it might be,] of Christ's reign on earth,  collectively represents the last day.   It goes against the whole of scripture to say that the reign of Christ is only 24 hours long.   Therfore,  your belief that all are holy and all are raised in one 24 hour day is patently false.   The wicked,  and only the wicked,  are reserved unto the great day of God's judgment. 

Jud 1:15 KJV To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Be Blessed,  not cursed

The PuP 

It Is Against Scripture To Claim A Literal Kingdom On This Earth, With Mortal Humans Present, Is Seen In Revelation 20:1-6 Below 

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time On This Earth

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Edited January 26, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

24 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Rev 20:5 KJV But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This verse defines the first resurrection.   It is those who do NOT have to wait a thousand years to live again. 

Rev 20:6 KJV Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse characterizes those who participate in the first resurrection.   They are blessed and holy... not cursed and unholy.  

The wicked, who are resurrected,  are in no case blessed and holy.   The wicked are resurrected at a different time than the holy.   So,  unless your idea of a thousand years is shorter than one day in length,  the wicked and holy are raised on different days.   The simple answer is that the "thousand years", [however figurative it might be,] of Christ's reign on earth,  collectively represents the last day.   It goes against the whole of scripture to say that the reign of Christ is only 24 hours long.   Therfore,  your belief that all are holy and all are raised in one 24 hour day is patently false.   The wicked,  and only the wicked,  are reserved unto the great day of God's judgment. 

Jud 1:15 KJV To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Be Blessed,  not cursed

The PuP 

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below, The Hour Is Coming

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Edited January 26, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

But it doesn't change the premise of my question, in that you still have two groups of people who are resurrected / raised from the dead at two different times. Is this not correct?

 

 

 

Yes. 

So do you not see the contradiction? Paul is the wise masterbuilder and we are built upon what he said, and he said there is no other foundation but the one which he laid and he said:

We shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...

You cannot have people changed at two different times, one at the first trump and another group at the last trump.

Many elaborate explanations have been given for the suppositions about what takes place 3.5 years before Armageddon and what takes place at the Last Trumpet...but after it is all 'explained' it does not match what Paul said.

Paul laid the foundation...we are to take heed HOW we build on that foundation, not WHETHER we build on it...the foundation is laid..the house must conform to the foundation, we do not have the authority re-model the foundation to fit our house.

There indeed was a mystery, but Paul said I will show you the mystery...if he understood what you have explained he would have said...

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, one group at the 1st Trumpet, and the others at the Last Trumpet." 

But he did not....what you are showing is a direct contradiction to what he said...it can be corrected by realizing when he sets foot on the Mt. of Olives is the Second Coming at the Last Trumpet...the 3.5 year time span between the coming of the Lord in Zech. 14 and the Last Trumpet does not exist...that is why the results you are coming up with do not fit what Paul has said...

There are some things Peter said that are hard to understand, but this is not one of them...What Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 explains everything in a nutshell.

Everybody being changed at one time at the Last Trumpet is the cure for pre-trib, the cure for mid-trib, and the cure for Preterists, 

The problem is not in understanding what Paul said, its that it has to be BELIEVED and acknowledged as being the truth. Put your finger on those scriptures and say, 'God, you said to acknowledge you in all my ways and to not trust in my own understanding...you said this, and I am going to believe it and build my house upon this foundation.."

Paul tells the Ephesians...
"How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery...whereby, when you read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ...which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men as it isn now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit..."

God made known to Paul the mystery...he said 'we are saved if we keep in memory what he has preached unto us...' 

If you build on a different foundation that what Paul has laid, it will be shaken as he said, everything that can be shaken will be shaken...it would be like the foolish man building on the sand...yes, he went out every day and went through much of the same motions as the wise man...cutting boards, pounding nails...ect...ect...but because he was not building on the foundation it all came to nought when the storms came and beat upon in...

The reason I am going over this is so important, because the resurrection of the dead is  a FOUNDATIONAL doctrine...it is already laid...we are not laying the foundation...when we build on the foundation, it means we have to measure the foundation and if its 30' wide and 45' long, then whatever we put on that foundation has to be 30' wide and 45' long...we do not have the power to adjust the foundation...

The correction is not hard to make...it just takes being humble and acknowledging the error and make the change...I have had to do this many times...I thought I was right, then there was one little scripture somewhere that did not fit into what I was thinking...I didn't just push the pedal to the metal and keep on going...I stopped dead in my tracks and said...there is an issue here...kind of like Moses...he sees the burning bush, he could have said, wow thats kind of strange a bush that is burning but not being consumed and just go on his way...no, he said...I need to stop and see whats going on here...thats when God spoke to him...

There is another analogy about this...they say a when a rocket gets launched from the earth to the moon, it is off about 90% of the time...but because it keeps getting corrective signals from the earth the ship eventually lands on the moon...and its not just getting corrective signals from the earth...its that the ship responds to those corrective signals..

 

Blessings to you..

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I explained that.   The Blessed and holy participate in the 1st resurrection before the "thousand years".  And the wicked will be resurrected a "thousand years" later at the Second death.   Simple.   The last day encompasses the whole of the "thousand years", from beginning to end.   They are not at the same day unless you believe the thousand years equals only one day. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ, that will never take place

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I said the dead in Christ "rise" [only]  at the 1st trumpet.   And all who are Christ's,  both the dead and the living are changed at the last trumpet.   It is obvious that "all who are changed" does not mean everybody,  both holy and unholy. 

Hi Da Puppers-

      I was never meaning the unholy were being dealt with when he said 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...' When Paul said 'we' he was referring to the saints, but the contradiction still remains...

When you say the dead in Christ "rise" [only] at the first trumpet, it is acknowledged they have to be first resurrected, as was mentioned, a dead limp body is not going to rise up to heaven...so at the point of resurrection the change occurs...in other words at the point of resurrection is when this mortal puts on immortality.

To say 'all who are Christ's both the dead and the living are changed at the last trumpet' does not fix the problem..there is still one group of saints who are resurrected / changed at one time and another group of saints who are resurrected / changed at another time...which is in direct contradiction to what Paul said that we would all be resurrected / changed at the last trump...

It might be misunderstood what a moment means, but a twinkle of eye narrows it down further and at the Last trumpet clinches the deal...there is no need to misunderstand this.

[WilliamL]

On 1/24/2022 at 12:16 PM, Da Puppers said:

 I agree with you that,  before the opening of the 6th Seal,  "souls" are in the heavenly realm.   But what is the heavenly realm?  It is that which the natural (human)  eye cannot see without a spiritual intervention or permission by God,  such as a vision or dream.   So where is the heavenly realm?  I can't be very dogmatic here,  because it is the unseen realm,  that is experienced only by a few while living in a human body.   I do not see it as spatially different from our known physical realm.   I see it as intertwined dimensions. 

Agreed. With the caveat that the heavenly realms are not "spatial" in any sense that compares to our physical realm. The heavenly realms are states of consciousness or beingness.

13. The Three Heavens

A description of the three heavens/worlds above our physical world, and how they correspond to soul, spirit, and breath. Also, how all four worlds are symbolically portrayed by the four different areas of the Holy Temple.    https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1027-the-three-heavens/

[WilliamL]

On 1/24/2022 at 2:22 PM, Da Puppers said:

This is where I differ with the traditional Pre-wrath viewpoint.   Only the dead in Christ are presented to the Father [those who are alive and remain are still on earth waiting for the last trumpet to sound].  Think about this for a moment.   If the living are not changed into immortals until the "last" trumpet sounds,  then they will still be living as mortals when the prior (to the last) trumpets sound(s).  That's because Christ has not yet (tho soon) received the kingdom,  nor has he been given the reigns of all authority.   Raising the dead is part of the authority that is given to Jesus because he is the Son of man.  And that authority is not conveyed until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. 

Disagree. The raised/raptured dead are shown in Rev. 7:14-15 --

"... And he said to me, These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

-- which is before the 7th Seal is ever opened, let along any of the trumpets.

Like so many, you presume that the 7th Trumpet is equivalent to "the last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15; which is not the case.

2. The Last Shofar: The Latter Horn of Redemption

    Provides the Hebraic background of, and explanation for, Paul’s use of the term “the Last Trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:51; then explains its connection to Paul’s often-ignored Rapture prophecy in Hebrews 12:18-28.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

[transmogrified]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:35 PM, Da Puppers said:

Let me reiterate.   Christ comes in the clouds before the mark of the beast is ever implemented. 

When Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives  one of the major events that happens then is the conversion of Israel...He gathers all nations against Jerusalem to battle and puts them in the fire to purge them and bring them forth holy to the Lord as it says in Ez. 22:18 -22 -

" ...The house of Israel is become dross to me...therefore I will gather you into Jerusalem as they gather silver brass and iron..I will gather you in my anger and my fury and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath...you shall be melted and know that I have poured out my fury upon you..."

Then it says:

Zech. 12:18 -" And I will pour out my spirit upon...the inhabitants of Jerusalem...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced ...and they shall mourn for him...and there shall be a very great mourning....AND IN THAT DAY a fountain will be opened....unto the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness, and he will cause the unclean spirit to pass out of the land....and one shall say, where did  you get these wounds in your hands...and he shall say those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." 

So 2/3 are burned in the fire and he brings out the pure remnant of the other 1/3...and these are going to call on the Lord and they are going to say the Lord is my God and he will call them his people...

So here are some things listed that will occur when he comes in Zech. 14:

1) God gathers all nations against Jerusalem

2) Israel is converted

3) God destroys the nations that came against Israel

4) The Lord is  made King over all the earth

5) The Lord is now ruling from his throne in Jerusalem

5) The nations that were left of those who came against Jerusalem are now going up from year to year to worship the Lord in Jerusalem....in other words all nations are now converted and going up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord

6) All nations are now keeping the feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem

7) Jerusalem is now delivered and dwelling safely with no fear of evil

By alleging Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives 3.5 years before Armageddon, you are also saying the above events have also occurred and are in place 3.5 years before Armageddon

Although the scripture does show that the above events will take place, the scripture does not show these events taking place 3.5 years before he comes at Armageddon, but are rather describing events that occur at the Battle of Armageddon.

Here is a list of some the things the scripture shows will occur 3.5 years before Armageddon: 

1) The dragon gives the beast his power, his seat and great authority. The beast now has power over all kindreds nations and tongues.

2) Those who dwell on the earth are deceived by the beast and the miracles he does

3) The man of sin is sitting in the temple of God where he ought not

So in comparing the two lists of events it is obvious they cannot both be taking place at the same time.

God does not have all the nations converted and going up to Jerusalem to worship him from year to year, while at the same time all the nations upon the earth are deceived and are worshipping the beast. 

The Lord is not reigning in Jerusalem on his throne over all the nations while at the same time the beast is in the same temple of God in Jerusalem ruling over all nations..

Paul said that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. The fulness of the Gentiles occurs at Armageddon, not 3.5 years before Armageddon.

The other element here is Jesus cannot be ruling in Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 

As he said 'Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

So people will not, can not, be coming up to worship the Lord in Jerusalem and keeping the feast of tabernacles while at the same time Jerusalem is being trodden down by the Gentiles.

It also states in Is. 24:23 that when the Lord reigns in Jerusalem the moon shall be confounded and the sun will be ashamed...but of course that does not occur until immediately after the tribulation...not 3.5 years before the tribulation.

In Isaiah 2 states that when many nations are joined unto the Lord, as shown in Zech. 14 that they will beat their swords into plowshares and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day...but in contrast to this when the man of sin appears on the scene it says that he exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.

These are not the same time frames...Zech. 14 is not talking about 3.5 years before Armageddon...it is talking about the Day of the Lord and the events that take place on that day...when God gathers all nations against Jerusalem to battle...it is the same Jerusalem shown in Rev. 18 where she is called Babylon the Great, the great whore. John specifically identified her as the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where also our Lord was crucified....which of course is Jerusalem.

God is sifting Jerusalem and the same battle in Zech and Rev. is being described although the corrupt elements of Jerusalem are burned with fire, the real 144000  are brought through and converted, but of course this happens at the Second Coming...not 3.5 years before.

Many of the elements you describe are true, its just you have placed them in the wrong time frame and therefore the events do not match the time slots allotted for them to occur. 

The one thing that is very misleading is how the 'coming' of the Lord with all his saints is being construed to mean the 'going' of the Lord with all the saints. When the angel was describing Jesus coming again on the Mt. of Olive he said "...why stand you gazing up into heaven...the same Jesus which is taken from you shall so come again in like manner as ye have seen him go.

You can see the language is unambiguous ...'taken from you' and 'go' meant he went up to heaven, whereas 'come again' meant that he would return back to the earth from whence he left...'

 Redefining the phrase 'the Lord my God shall COME and all the saints with thee' into meaning 'The Lord my God shall GO and all the saints with thee' does not even fit how you are describing it...Even if you were correct that 'coming' meant 'going' it would fit how you are describing it. How so?

Because if he says ALL the saints, it would not just mean all the dead saints as is purported...it would mean both the living and the dead....This is another custom definition of the word 'all.'

All of the above could have sorted itself out if it was believed that all will be resurrected / changed at the Last Trump. 

Blessings to you- Gary