A Prewrath Rapture question

[truth7t7]

26 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

 

 

Hello-

   Does the 7th Trumpet sound 3.5 years before Armageddon?

 

 

 

The 7th Trump/Angel sounding ushers in the final judgement (The End)

Revelation 11:15-18KJV

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[WilliamL]

On 1/28/2022 at 1:24 AM, transmogrified said:

...there is no valid explanation for the Last Trumpet outside of the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.

Your presumption that the 7th Trumpet of Revelation is the Last Trumpet is not valid itself, because there is no biblical second witness to support it. Therefore, it is purely presumption on the part of yourself and others.

Remember, just because an argument makes logical sense, which yours does, does NOT mean it is de facto true.

[transmogrified]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 The resurrection of all the saints occurs at the 7th ttrumpet, which occurs on the feast of Pentecost,  in the 42nd month before Armageddon

Hello Again.... 

       I need clarification on what you are saying concerning the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Here are some quotes:

 

Quote

1) "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, one group at the 1st Trumpet, and the others at the Last Trumpet." 

        Here it is stated there is one group changed at the 1st Trumpet, and another group at the Last Trumpet.  This means you are saying there are two resurrections for two different groups of people at two different times. 

Quote

2) I said the dead in Christ "rise" [only]  at the 1st trumpet.   And all who are Christ's,  both the dead and the living are changed at the last trumpet.  

        b) Here it is said that the dead on Christ 'rise' only at the first trumpet...All the others both dead and living are changed at the Last Trumpet. Here it is said there are two resurrections, one for one group of people at the 1st trumpet and anther resurrection for another group of people at the Last Trump.

Quote

 

So am I understanding you correctly that the dead in Christ are resurrected 3.5 years before Armageddon? 

3) [Only] The dead in Christ rise,  anistemi,  first,  at the sounding of the trumpet.   The living will be caught up to meet them in the air later,  at the sounding of the last trumpet.   

 

     Here it is said the dead in Christ rise at the sounding of 'the' trumpet (I suppose the 1st trumpet?) and then the living will be caught later at the last trumpet. This seems to be saying the dead in Christ 'rise' (only) which seems to imply they ascend up into heaven, but of course they can not do this unless they have first been resurrected, but then it seems to be said that only the living are caught up later at the 7th trumpet...but of course if there was a resurrection 3.5 years before the living rose, there would also need to be a resurrection for those who had died during the 3.5 years, so saying the living are the only was involved at the 7th Trumpet is not accurate. 

 

Quote

 

4) Paul says,  the dead in Christ shall rise/ anistemi  first.   So the dead in Christ rise/ anistemi to the Father at the time of the first trumpet,  but they are not given a glorified body until the last trumpet sounds when "all those that belong to Christ", the living mortals and the corruptible dead are all changed together,  in the twinkling of an eye. 

 

 

The above quotation says the dead in Christ rise up to heaven at the first trumpet, but are not glorified until the last trumpet...but of course this is contrary to what Paul says, in that no one can rise up into heaven without being first resurrected, and if they were resurrected they would have also received a glorified body at this same time, not 3.5 years later

 

Quote

 5) This means that the dead in Christ DO NOT rise at the same time as when those that are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the clouds.   The dead in Christ rise at the first trumpet and then the living are caught up at the last trumpet,  and together they are all changed.   

Here again there is a separation of the resurrection into two groups at two different times...it is said the dead in Christ do not rise at the same time the living are changed, and will not be caught up until the last trumpet, which has been previously stated to occur 3.5 years after the 1st trumpet.

Quote

 

But it doesn't change the premise of my question, in that you still have two groups of people who are resurrected / raised from the dead at two different times. Is this not correct?

6) Yes. 

 

Here it is again affirmed that the dead in Christ are divided into two different groups, one at one time and another group resurrected at another time for another group.

 

Quote

Everyone who HAS believed in Christ will be changed at the last trumpet.   No one left out.  There is no contradiction.   All, everyone,  who belongs to Christ, will be changed at the parousia.  

 

   Now on this last post it is affirmed that everyone who has believed in Christ will be changed at the Last trumpet...however all the previous postings has asserted there will be two resurrections, one for one group and another resurrection for another group at another time.

 

Quote

 You have a very valid and true point that ALL  will be changed at the last trumpet. 

Here again you are saying now that all will be changed at the Last Trumpet.

  

Quote

This is what many believe... two different times in which those who are "in Christ" shall be changed.   You are right to believe that all, yea rather "all who belong to Christ" will be changed at the same time.

Here it is said that many believe the apparent error that there are two different times in which all those who are in Christ shall be changed...but this is what was formerly posited in the first 6 quotations that were given. Do you acknowledge the first 6 quotes to be in error?

 

Quote

At least 3 times you have purported that I believe the resurrection "occurs 3.5 years before the last trump".  That is absolutely not what I'm saying.   The resurrection of all the saints occurs at the 7th ttrumpet, which occurs on the feast of Pentecost,  in the 42nd month before Armageddon (which occurs at the end of the feast of tabernacles,  3.5 years later.   All the saints who belong to Christ at that time are resurrected.   All.  Not some.   All.  

In the above quotation it now appears as if the 7th Trumpet occurs 42 months before Armageddon and all saints are resurrected at that time. Is this your current position that the saints are not resurrected at two different times as was asserted in the first six quotes?

These quotes show an extreme amount of variability...some assert two groups resurrected at two different times, some assert one resurrection for one group at one time and only a rapture for the living at another time, and this final post states there is only one resurrection for all 3.5 years before Armageddon.

Which view do you hold, as they are obviously not all the same? 

Please be very specific as to what you believe...what Paul is saying is not hard to comprehend...it is summarized in a very few words...

Quote

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump.

   According to Paul there is not two resurrections for two groups of people happening at two different times, but this is what was asserted in the first six quotations.  The first six quotations are without question not the same as what Paul is teaching. Do you acknowledge the first six quotations to be in error?

[truth7t7]

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Your presumption that the 7th Trumpet of Revelation is the Last Trumpet is not valid itself, because there is no biblical second witness to support it. Therefore, it is purely presumption on the part of yourself and others.

Remember, just because an argument makes logical sense, which yours does, does NOT mean it is de facto true.

Of course it's valid as seen below, there is no earthly time beyond the 7th Trump/Angel and the final judgement following

The 7th Trump/Angel sounding ushers in the final judgement (The End)

Revelation 11:15-18KJV

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Edited January 31, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your presumption that the 7th Trumpet of Revelation is the Last Trumpet is not valid itself, because there is no biblical second witness to support it. Therefore, it is purely presumption on the part of yourself and others.

Remember, just because an argument makes logical sense, which yours does, does NOT mean it is de facto true.

Hello William-

What do you think the Last Trumpet is?

Thank you- Gary

[transmogrified]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:57 PM, truth7t7 said:

2 weeks before the 7th Trumpet blows on the 7th of Sivan,  will be the 22nd day of Iyyar, the 2nd month.   42 months later will take you to the 22nd day of Tishri,  which is the 8th day of tabernacles,  the day of Armageddon. 

Hello -

I really don't like to see you pull out.. I cannot seem to understand your true position, as it seems be based primarily on the premise that there are two resurrections of two different groups of people that happen at two different times...this was constantly affirmed to be the case until the last couple of posts, at which time it seems the time frame of the Last Trumpet was relocated to occur at the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast.

There were many quotes that state there are two resurrections for two different groups of people at two different times. When the discrepancy is brought up it seems there is another elaborate explanation that ends up with the same conclusion that there are two resurrections for two different groups of people that happen at two different times. 

Then there was one quote where some are only raised at the first trump, then others are glorified at the Last Trump...this is all gibberish...there is nothing in what Paul is saying that resembles that

The last post was saying the 7th Trumpet sounds 3.5 years before Armageddon which was never in the discussion before.

This quote was given:

Quote

2 weeks before the 7th Trumpet blows on the 7th of Sivan,  will be the 22nd day of Iyyar, the 2nd month.   42 months later will take you to the 22nd day of Tishri,  which is the 8th day of tabernacles,  the day of Armageddon. 

The 7th Trumpet sounds at the end of the 42 months of the reign of Anti-christ...this is not hard to see. The beast wages war against the saints and prevails against them UNTIL the Ancient of Days come...this is when his reign comes to its end. The 7th Trumpet sounds at this time and then the dead are raised.

It is fine if it takes an elaborate explanation to show everyone gets resurrected at one time on the Last Trump, but the Last Trumpet does not sound at the beginning of the reign of the beast....when it sounds it brings his kingdom to its end...This a major error thinking the 7th Trumpet sounds at the beginning of his reign.

In summary, the dead in Christ are all resurrected at one time, at the Last Trumpet that sounds at the end of the tribulation...saying they are all resurrected at the Last Trumpet and then relocating the Last Trumpet to sound at the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast is an error that can be corrected, but the truth has to be acknowledged before any correction can take place.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[truth7t7]

36 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello William-

What do you think the Last Trumpet is?

Thank you- Gary

I'm Truth7t7, and the Last Trump is the voice of the 7th Angel, that signifies (The End) as you were shown

[truth7t7]

12 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello -

I really don't like to see you pull out.. I cannot seem to understand your true position, as it seems be based primarily on the premise that there are two resurrections of two different groups of people that happen at two different times...this was constantly affirmed to be the case until the last couple of posts, at which time it seems the time frame of the Last Trumpet was relocated to occur at the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast.

There were many quotes that state there are two resurrections for two different groups of people at two different times. When the discrepancy is brought up it seems there is another elaborate explanation that ends up with the same conclusion that there are two resurrections for two different groups of people that happen at two different times. 

Then there was one quote where some are only raised at the first trump, then others are glorified at the Last Trump...this is all gibberish...there is nothing in what Paul is saying that resembles that

The last post was saying the 7th Trumpet sounds 3.5 years before Armageddon which was never in the discussion before.

This quote was given:

The 7th Trumpet sounds at the end of the 42 months of the reign of Anti-christ...this is not hard to see. The beast wages war against the saints and prevails against them UNTIL the Ancient of Days come...this is when his reign comes to its end. The 7th Trumpet sounds at this time and then the dead are raised.

It is fine if it takes an elaborate explanation to show everyone gets resurrected at one time on the Last Trump, but the Last Trumpet does not sound at the beginning of the reign of the beast....when it sounds it brings his kingdom to its end...This a major error thinking the 7th Trumpet sounds at the beginning of his reign.

In summary, the dead in Christ are all resurrected at one time, at the Last Trumpet that sounds at the end of the tribulation...saying they are all resurrected at the Last Trumpet and then relocating the Last Trumpet to sound at the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast is an error that can be corrected, but the truth has to be acknowledged before any correction can take place.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Sorry, the post in bold underlines below dosent belong to me, as you put my forum name attached to this, I believe it belongs to "DaPuppers" as seen below

On 1/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, truth7t7 said:

2 weeks before the 7th Trumpet blows on the 7th of Sivan,  will be the 22nd day of Iyyar, the 2nd month.   42 months later will take you to the 22nd day of Tishri,  which is the 8th day of tabernacles,  the day of Armageddon. 

Da Puppers, Saturday 12:37AM

2 weeks before the 7th Trumpet blows on the 7th of Sivan,  will be the 22nd day of Iyyar, the 2nd month.   42 months later will take you to the 22nd day of Tishri,  which is the 8th day of tabernacles,  the day of Armageddon. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

I'm Truth7t7, and the Last Trump is the voice of the 7th Angel, that signifies (The End) as you were shown

Hi truth7t7-

I realize the Last Trumpet is the voice of the 7th Angel, that signifies (the end) as I was shown...In that William said just because my position made sense did not make it true,  I was wanting to know what he thought the Last Trumpet was...

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

4 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Sorry, the post in bold underlines below dosent belong to me, as you put my forum name attached to this, I believe it belongs to "DaPuppers" as seen below

Da Puppers, Saturday 12:37AM

2 weeks before the 7th Trumpet blows on the 7th of Sivan,  will be the 22nd day of Iyyar, the 2nd month.   42 months later will take you to the 22nd day of Tishri,  which is the 8th day of tabernacles,  the day of Armageddon. 

Oh, sorry, yes I guess the quotes directed it to you instead of Dapuppers ...maybe he will pick it up...

Thanks