A Prewrath Rapture question

[truth7t7]

4 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hi truth7t7-

I realize the Last Trumpet is the voice of the 7th Angel, that signifies (the end) as I was shown...In that William said just because my position made sense did not make it true,  I was wanting to know what he thought the Last Trumpet was...

Blessings to you- Gary

Its apparent he dosent believe the 7th Trump/Angel is the final judgement (The End)

[transmogrified]

 

Here is one quote"

Quote

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, one group at the 1st Trumpet, and the others at the Last Trumpet." 

This states that one group is glorified at one time and another group is glorified at another time.

Is this still what you believe?

 

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Yes,  there is one group glorified at the 7th ttrumpet.  And another group glorified at the time of Armageddon for those who believed after the 7th trump sounds and refused to take the mark.

The above quote has one group glorified at the 7th Trumpet which allegedly is 3.5 years before Armageddon. And then it says another group will be glorified at the time of Armageddon for 'those who believed AFTER the 7th Trump sounds...'

This still shows two groups of people glorified at two different times...one group is glorified 3.5 years before Armageddon and another group glorified after Armageddon...

Please do not say I am mis-quoting you or mis-applying what you said...The above quote specifically states there are two different groups being glorified at two different times...

Let me re-quote what was said:

One group:

1) Yes, there is one group glorified at the 7th Trumpet

2) And another group glorified at the time of Armageddon

I am not misquoting what was said...this is a quote stating there are two different groups being glorified at two different times...

If it is said that 2 + 2 =5 and then it is stated that 2 + 2 does not equal 5 but rather, 2 + 2 =4, it is not that I mis-applied what was said, it is that the statement 2 + 2 = 5 is wrong and needs to be corrected. 

I am taking the quote exactly as it was stated...if the quote is not true, then please correct it, but if it truly means what is stated, then there are explicitly two groups of people being glorified at two different times in direct contradiction to Paul saying 'we shall all be changed at the Last Trumpet.'

Even the quote states not all will be changed at the last trumpet, which is easily seen to be different than what Paul said. 

The statement that was made that 'if you think this is a contradiction from 1 Cor. 15 then you won't respond..' is horrible...

If it is not  a contradiction then please take the time to tell me how two groups of people being changed at two different times, part at the Last Trumpet, and the other part after the Last Trumpet, can possibly  be the same as 'we shall all be changed at the Last Trumpet.'

Thank you- Gary

 

 

[transmogrified]

3 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I have explained it over and over again.   It is not a contradiction of scripture.   My statements have not been self contradictory.   I have presented the same thing every time.   You just can't understand it. 

 

 

It was said in one of your last posts when it was quoted that one group was changed at one time and another group was changed at another time, and it was said that it was not your quote or I was mis-applying what you said...So it is plain according to what was said that you did not agree that there were two groups being glorified or changed at two different times...then this latest post says explicitly that two groups are glorified at two different times, exactly the same premise...

the distinction was that one group was 'raised' but not glorified, and that all would be glorified at the same time...then this last post says no, there are two groups being glorified at two different times...if was not meant to mean there are two groups being glorified at two different times then it should not be stated as such...if it was meant all would be glorified at the last trump, it could be said, 'all will be glorified at the last trump, but it was specifically said one group at the last trump and another group after the last trump...both groups cannot be changed at the Last trump and in the same breath say some will be glorified AFTER THE LAST TRUMP...AFTER does not mean AT THE SAME TIME...this is not hard to see the contradiction...if you wanted me to understand all would be glorified at the last trump, it easily could have been said that way...

Please don't just say, "I can't understand it,' or 'we disagree' these are all excuses that do not address the contradiction at all...There is no way for me to 'understand' that an apple is an orange...' the premise that is being put forth is if I don't agree that an apple is an orange then I 'just can't understand it,' or 'we disagree...' 

The discussion is being framed as if it has been explained over and over but the explanations have varied from all being changed at the last trump, to some are changed at the last trump and other are changed after the last trump...This is not explaining it over and over..these are direct contradictions not only to what Paul said, but even contradicting your own statements...

It is like trying to convince a jury that you are not the bank robber...The prosecuting attorney says 'Were you, or were you not in the First National Bank on Nov. 12? You say, No sir, I was not in First National Bank on Nov. 12. Then the defense asks you the same question and you say, Yes sir, I was in First National Bank on Nov. 12. And then you add...'Thats my story, theres no contradictions in what I am saying, and anyone that doesn't agree with me just doesn't understand...' There is no way to understand he was both there on Nov. 12 and not there on Nov. 12, so who doesn't understand? 

Please just deal with the contradiction...everyone has made mistakes and has to be corrected...Proverbs says 'reproofs of instruction are the way of life...' You are building a house and if it is not being built on the foundation Paul laid, it will be shaken...please do not blame me for not understanding something that is easily seen as being contradictory...I could take the two premises that have been put forth and ask almost anybody...'Are these two statements the same?' Here is one:

1) All will be changed at the Last trump...

And here is the other statement:

2) Some will be changed at the Last Trump and others will be changed after the Last Trump..

Anyone can see these are not the same..

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Good bye. 

The word 'change' was used in both instances...one group is 'changed' at one time and another group is 'changed' at another time. 'Change' is the word used in scripture for mortality putting on immortality, or in other words, 'changed' means the person is resurrected and has now received a glorified body.

If you meant one group is 'raised' into the air without being resurrected, then it should have been stated 'one group is 'raised up into heaven without being resurrected' at one time and another group is later 'changed' after the Last Trump.

And the problem is that sometimes you brought this out that the one group was not resurrected and only rose up into heaven, but then in this last post the word 'change' was used in both groups...Did you mean that?

Either way, it would still violate 1 Cor. 15 in that dead people do not rise up into heaven as has been stated. Dead people are sleeping until the resurrection...as Job 14: 12-

 "So man lies down, and rises not; till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." 

The context of course is the resurrection, even though the word 'rise' here doesn't specifically mean 'resurrect' but rather to stand up.

In any context, however, no one will 'rise,' whether rising into heaven, or rising in the resurrection until a certain point in time. The point in time is described within verse 12-"till the heavens be no more'. 

In other words, no one will rise or awake out of their sleep before the 6th seal in which it states 'and the heavens departed as a scroll' in Isaiah 34:4, and Rev. 6:14

It was stated that some would be changed at the 7th Trumpet, and then some would be changed 3.5 years later at Armageddon, so if the premise is that some only 'rise' at the 7th trumpet, where it was specifically stated that they [only] rose up to heaven and were NOT glorified, then what was stated in the last post would contradict that, as it was specifically stated both groups would be glorified at two different times.

I realize you are banking on the phrase, 'those that Christ's at his coming' and saying because both groups have been glorified, one at one time and the other at another time it would not contradict the statement that they would all be glorified by the time Christ comes, but this is not what Paul is saying.

Paul is not saying one group gets glorified at one time and another group at another time so they can all be glorified by the time he comes...No.

He states ALL are glorified in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP. See what he is saying...he is saying the glorification itself happens at the Last trump, not that they are all glorified by the time the Last Trumpet sounds, nor is he saying all would be glorified by the time Christ comes. 

AT the Last Trump means that is when the glorification occurs..the phrase 'they that are Christ's at his coming,' does not negate what Paul said, or give some kind of loop hole...The word AT does not mean BEFORE, and it does not mean AFTER...

Even the phrase that you used was that some were glorified AT the last trumpet, then AFTER THAT the others would be changed at Armageddon. 

The example about 'rising' is when the two prophets are killed...first they are killed, so they are now dead. Then it says the spirit of life from God enters into them and then what happens? They STOOD UPON THEIR FEET...what happened next? They heard a voice and IN THEIR GLORIFIED BODY they then ascended up into heaven.

See what happened before they rose up into heaven? They stood on their feet...in other words they were first resurrected from the dead BEFORE they rose up to heaven. This is the scriptural pattern. Resurrection / glorification, then ascension...it was even that way with Jesus...first he died, then was buried, then rose from the dead, in other words, he was resurrected and was glorified, then he later ascended up to heaven.

The picture of the two prophets is the picture of all the dead in Christ being resurrected and changed and ascending...but as you can see, the timing when the two prophets are resurrected and changed is when the Last Trumpet sounds...but of course this is not 3.5 years before Armageddon, but it shows the correct timing of when the dead are resurrected and changed.

The picture of the two prophets shows they are laying dead in the streets, but whether in the street or in the graves, all the dead in Christ are resurrected and changed at this same time. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

21 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 All WILL NOT BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMPET. 

This statement is almost unbelievable...a direct quote from Paul and it is openly contradicted...are you really wanting me to believe you rather than Paul? 

 

34 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Sure it says ALL will be changed.   But it doesn't say that all will be changed at the last trumpet. 

I have no idea how you can say this with a straight face...what on earth do you mean 'it doesn't say all will be changed at the last trumpet?' 

Please tell me how  this phrase that states 'we shall not all sleep  but we shall all be changed in a moment at the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump,' could possibly be re-stated to mean 'sure it says ALL will be changed. But it doesn't say that all will be changed at the Last Trumpet.'

This is so bizarre I can hardly believe it. 'But it doesn't say that all will be changed at the Last Trump??? 

I hardly ever go here without hard proof, but when you say the scripture doesn't say what it actually says, then you are preaching another gospel.

This is not even a matter of how to properly understand something..it is an outright denial it even says what anybody can plainly see and read that this is what it says. 

 

[tatwo]

 

Quote

Da Pup> "Go ahead and post the scripture that says all will be changed at the last trumpet.   You can't.   You are in absolute denial."

All this umm...controversy....debate over these passages?

1Co 15:50-53 NASB  Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.  51  Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,  52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  53  For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Either you are talking about two different things here...or you're just being obstinate. 

In any case...it would seem that Paul is clear here. May I ask what is Paul talking about here in the context of your discussion if it is not the obvious? Is it worth all the haughtiness?

Remember....2Ti 2:23-26 NASB  But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.  24  The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,  25  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,  26  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

It would seem that most of the posters on these forums have ignored Paul's words to Timothy...

Tatwo...:)

[truth7t7]

Deleted

Edited February 2, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

On 1/31/2022 at 11:31 AM, Da Puppers said:

 We won't be resurrected until the Father has given the kingdom to the Son... at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.   Any view,  pre-trib, Pre-wrath, Post-Trib or no rapture at all, that has the saints living in resurrected bodies before Christ is in possession of the kingdom,  goes against the prime directive of the kingdom.   We live (in fleshly bodies) so that we might be deemed worthy of inheriting the kingdom. 

2Th 1:5 KJV Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:..

2Th 1:10 KJV When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rom 2:5-7 KJV ⁵ But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds [the deeds done in his body] : ⁷ To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, [he will give unto them--->] ETERNAL LIFE:

Eternal life,  the resurrecting of our bodies, is the reward for a faithful life,  deemed worthy of the kingdom. 

There is no resurrecting of our bodies apart from being given the kingdom that God has ordained before the foundation of the world. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I Agree 100%, the teachings that those were "Resurrected" into immortal bodies, that came out of the graves at the death of Jesus on Calvary is "False"

Edited February 2, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

Either you are talking about two different things here...or you're just being obstinate. 

In any case...it would seem that Paul is clear here. May I ask what is Paul talking about here in the context of your discussion if it is not the obvious? Is it worth all the haughtiness?

Hello- Good to talk to you

   Yes, Paul is clear here. What he is talking about in the context of our discussion is that we shall not all sleep, or die, but we shall all be changed...

He is then showing us exactly when all of the believers will be changed...at the last trump.

To say he is not saying we will all be changed at the last trump is not true...he is saying we will all be changed at the last trump...

Quote

Is it worth all the haughtiness?

No it is not worth it. Paul says if any man teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words...even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words...."

The scripture points out here who is proud...it is the one who teaches otherwise...teaching that Paul said we will not all be changed at the Last Trumpet is teaching otherwise...attempting to restore someone to the truth is not being haughty. 

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

Either you are talking about two different things here...

There are two different things being talked about...one is that Paul said we would all be changed at the last trump, and the other thing being talked about is the Paul said we would not all be changed at the last trump. 

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

or you're just being obstinate. 

Obstinate: "Stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite  attempts to persuade one to do so." 

The point in time Paul says we will all be changed is obviously at the Last Trump...someone that refuses to acknowledge what Paul has stated is being obstinate despite attempts being made to persuade otherwise.

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,  25  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Yes, I have openly showed that we are all subject to making mistakes, myself included, and that reproofs of instruction are the way of life..this pertains to me just as much as anyone else...but it does not negate the fact the fact that errors must be addressed and corrected. 

6 hours ago, tatwo said:

It would seem that most of the posters on these forums have ignored Paul's words to Timothy...

There are three things in the above quote:

1) Meekness

2) Instruction

3) Repentance

If a man be overtaken in a fault those who are spiritual are to restore such in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself lest ye also be tempted.

I am not ignoring Pauls words to Timothy, but am considering myself, knowing full well a person can be misled or make mistakes. 

This is how John put it..."If any of you do err from the truth and one convert him, let him know that he that converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Of course the point we are aiming at is conversion, but as was stated, it is God who will peradventure give them repentance...and how is this brought about? As it continues ...'to the acknowledging of the truth...' If the truth is not acknowledged there can be no repentance, and if there is no repentance they will never recover themselves out of the snare of the devil...

Realize what was said...a person who errs from the truth is in the snare of the devil...there is no way to open the jaws of the devil  without acknowledging the truth.

And remember, John is not saying this to the sinner out in the world somewhere....he is saying this to believers...'if any of you (believers) do err from the truth...so it is fully possible a person can be a believer and yet be led astray into error and be ensnared by the devil.

'If a man be overtaken in a fault, YE who are spiritual RESTORE such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself, lest ye also be tempted."

If others here consider themselves to be spiritual and see the fault, then the obligation is upon you as a believer as well as me to restore the one who is overtaken in a fault. Thinking we will not all be changed at the last trumpet is a fault, and the person believing this needs to be restored to the acknowledging of the truth.

Those of you who do believe we shall all be changed at the Last Trumpet join with me in your obligation to God  to restore our brother....

Blessings to you