A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Since the "great day of His wrath is come" at the 6th Seal, when every eye sees the Lord, then, according to you, the Church will go through the time of the Wrath of God all the way up to the 7th Trumpet. 

But according to Jesus, He will "gather together His elect/chosen" at the time that everyone sees Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven." Matt. 24:30-31

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the dead are raised, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the heathen wail, the Wrath begins.

Why do you begin God's wrath at the very end, when John begins the Day of His wrath before any part of the tribulation or 70th-week? (Rev. chapter 6)

It is a LONG WAYS from chapter 6 to chapter 19. All the events of chapters 7 through 18 must and will take place between.

[iamlamad]

On 3/14/2022 at 6:10 PM, transmogrified said:

Yes, you are correct...but when he comes, he then sits on the throne of his glory...as it says in Matthew 25:31 -

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory..."

Jesus will not be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem at the sixth seal...he will sit on the throne at the 7th Trumpet and not before. 

When he comes he will sit upon the throne in Jerusalem and all the world will be subject to him...as it says 'The Lord alone shall be exalted in that day..." The man of sin will not be ruling all the nations kindreds and tongues during the same time Jesus is sitting on the throne...Jesus comes at Armageddon and THEN he takes the beast and the false prophet and casts them into the lake of fire...but the beast is persecuting the saints during this whole time until Jesus comes...as it says 'he makes war with the saints, and prevails against them UNTIL the Ancient of Days CAME...See? The beast makes war with the saints UNTIL Jesus comes...he comes at Armageddon...that is the Day of the Lord..not at the sixth seal. (Jesus does not come at the sixth seal so he will not be here on the earth before Armageddon) So what else happens when Jesus comes to this earth? 

It says 'And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom...' The saints are ruling when Jesus comes, but they are being killed by the beast before then...the day of the Lord is WHEN Jesus comes, just like you said, but he does not come to this earth until Armageddon...and that is when he sits upon his throne and that is the day the resurrection and rapture takes place...this the 'That day' that Paul was writing about...it is not at the sixth seal, but at the 7th Trumpet...

And of course Jesus was not just talking to the Jews in Matthew 24...he was talking to his disciples...meaning he was talking to all believers...he told his disciples 'when you see the man of sin standing in the holy place, then know that it is nigh even at the doors...' the Jews are not even saved until Jesus comes as it states in Zech. 14 when they see him and say 'where did you get those scars in your hands..? This is when he pours out his spirit upon them and they are grafted back into the vine...when the man of sin is standing in the holy place, this is the man the Jews  have wanted for centuries...this is who Jesus said 'I am come in my Fathers' name and ye receive me not...another will come in his own name (anti-christ) and him ye shall receive...' They are not the ones looking for Jesus to return...they are not the ones who are reading the New Testament seeking guidance from Jesus? Are you kidding? Looking to Jesus is the last thing they will do...they will not accept him until the anti christ is almost to obliterate them...and if Jesus didn't come they would be obliterated...no, the instructions are to the believers of Jesus as to seeing the man of sin..he deceives the whole world with his miracles...only the true believers will not take the mark and it is the true believers who are getting beheaded for not worshipping the beast...National Israel will be mislead by him completely as they think he is the real deal Messiah they have been waiting for..there he will be in the temple showing himself to be God just as Paul said

So who are they that are resurrected at the last trump? Just Jews? Hardly...it lists who they are...

1) His servants the prophets...(there are Gentile prophets)

2) The saints...(there are Gentile saints)

3) Those that fear his name, both small and great..(there are Gentiles who fear his name, both small and great...)

 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Gary, you copied what I copied from you! I bolded it but did not use quotes: my bad.

"The Day of the Lord is when Christ comes" (You wrote this and I answered it)

Since there will be two more comings, I must be specific. Jesus will come PRETRIB and call up the church. Then, the rapture will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. All of these events will happen before the 70th-week and before and at the 6th seal. The 6th seal is before the tribulation which will begin at the 7th seal.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory..."

Whoa back!  What will you do with all the events of chapters 7 through 18 of Revelation? Just sweep them under the rug? The truth is, they will all take place after the 6th seal and before Christ comes to Armageddon.

"Jesus will not be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem at the sixth seal...he will sit on the throne at the 7th Trumpet and not before. "

No, sorry, but you are off on a tangent. There will be a property closing that takes place in the court room of heaven, and the kingdoms of the world will be transferred into Jesus hands, but He will not take physical possession until after He comes as seen in Revelation 19.

"'The Lord alone shall be exalted in that day..." The man of sin will not be ruling all the nations kindreds and tongues during the same time Jesus is sitting on the throne"

It seems you are determined to rearrange Revelation to fit some theory.

Questions:
WHO gives the Beast his 42 months of Authority?
WHO wrote about it almost 2000 years before it will happen?
WHO will cause the 7 vials and plagues to happen  - to shorten those days?
WHO will catch the Beast and False prophet and cast them into hell?

Answer these correctly and then we can discuss who is exalted.

"UNTIL the Ancient of Days CAME...See? The beast makes war with the saints UNTIL Jesus comes...he comes at Armageddon...that is the Day of the Lord"

Why do you insist on making stuff up? Leave the start of the Day of the Lord where John put it, before the start of the 70th-week - and in chapter 6. The truth is, the time of Jacob's trouble will be INSIDE the day of the Lord - so the entire week will be with God's wrath.

" (Jesus does not come at the sixth seal so he will not be here on the earth before Armageddon)"

I guess you forgot that Paul said, He will come ONLY to the air for the rapture. He does not touch down, but rather takes us to the homes he has prepared.

"And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom...'"

I guess you expect to do this on your own? Or Expect the church to do this? The truth is, the saints WILL possess the kingdom, DURING the Millennial reign.

I won't go further, this is long enough. It seems I have disagreed with almost all your points.

[transmogrified]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:06 PM, iamlamad said:

By the way, when people think "rapture" they are thinking of BOTH events, the dead in Christ AND those alive and In Christ. TOGETHER we are caught up into the air to meet Christ.

Yes it does say the living will be caught up together with them in the air, but that is the ascension into the air...the resurrection only happens to those in Christ who have died...and it says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...meaning BEFORE anyone ascends up into the air the dead in Christ are resurrected...Jesus said all those who believe will be resurrected on the last day...seeing that this resurrection of the dead in Christ happens on the last day, there can be no rapture before the last day....

Do you believe all believers will be resurrected on the last day or before the last day?

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Yes it does say the living will be caught up together with them in the air, but that is the ascension into the air...the resurrection only happens to those in Christ who have died...and it says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...meaning BEFORE anyone ascends up into the air the dead in Christ are resurrected...Jesus said all those who believe will be resurrected on the last day...seeing that this resurrection of the dead in Christ happens on the last day, there can be no rapture before the last day....

Do you believe all believers will be resurrected on the last day or before the last day?

What do you do when you find two verses that seem to conflict? Paul is very clear that his rapture will come before wrath and John is very clear that wrath begins before the Week. Therefore, the dead in Christ will be resurrected before "the last day." Could it be then that Jesus was only talking about the Jews - since at that time the Gentile church of today was  still a mystery hidden in God? Maybe you have another solution.

No, I don't believe all believers will be resurrected on the last day. I do believe the Old Testament saints (which the disciples were at that time) will be resurrected on that day. Added to them will be all the beheaded, and added to them, the Two Witnesses. All these will be resurrected on that last day.

[transmogrified]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Gary, you copied what I copied from you! I bolded it but did not use quotes: my bad.

"The Day of the Lord is when Christ comes" (You wrote this and I answered it)

Oh, I am sorry...I thought that was a quote from you, but then I looked back and it was what I said...

But it is true...the Day of the Lord is a single day in which both the rapture / resurrection takes place...

This is shown in 1 Cor. 15 where it states 'we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.'

When it says 'we shall all be changed,' he means ALL of the saints will be changed at the last trump...the last trump does not sound before the tribulation starts...it sounds at the end of the tribulation after the first 6 have sounded....

If the last trumpet sounded before the tribulation started, then there could be no trumpet sounding in Matthew 24 when he comes at Armageddon...why? Because if it is the last one, then no more trumpets would sound after that and the last one would be when he comes at Armageddon...however the trump of God that sounds in 1 Thess. 5 is the same trumpet that sounds in Matthew 24, the same one Paul referred to as the last trump and also spoken of by John to be the 7th Trumpet...

The day Paul was talking about in 2 Thess. 2 is the Day of Christ, which is the Day of the Lord...(Jesus Christ is the Lord) but he specifically stated two events that would take place on that day...1) The coming of our Lord and 2) Our gathering together unto him...which means the gathering of both the living and the dead...the dead via resurrection and ascension, the living via ascension...but the resurrection of the dead must take place FIRST...so even though we don't know the day or the hour, we know there is a sequence of events...FIRST the resurrection, (placing the time frame at the last day) THEN the living are raptured...but both take place on the very same day...

[transmogrified]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore, the dead in Christ will be resurrected before "the last day." Could it be then that Jesus was only talking about the Jews - since at that time the Gentile church of today was  still a mystery hidden in God? Maybe you have another solution.

So here is the quotes from Jesus...

John 6:39 - "And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...

6: 40 - "...that every one that sees the Son and believes on him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6: 44 - "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6:54 - "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

So the criteria is plain to see this is not to be construed to only mean Jews...He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood is a New Testament commandment  which would pertain to all saints since it was instituted...

All those who are drawn by God to Jesus would also pertain to all saints and not just the Jews...as he said NO MAN can come to me except the Father draws him...

Every one that sees the Son and believes on him would also not be restricted to Jews...as many Gentiles saw Jesus and believed on him...

All those that God gave to Christ would include all the saints as well, as it states 'All thine are mine, and mine are thine...John 17:10

This is also confirmed as to who gets resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet...It specifically states when the 7th Trumpet sounds that 'NOW is the time of the dead...(Not 7 years before this, or after this, but NOW, i.e. when the 7th Trumpet sounded) So what does the 'time of the dead that they should be judged mean? It means they must first be resurrected...this is why Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...and then it specifically states who it is that will be rewarded...

1) To thy servants the prophets...

2) The saints...

3) Them that fear thy name both small and great...

These identifiers  can not be construed to  mean Jews. 'The saints' means 'whosoever does the will of God...' 'thy servants the prophets' does not just mean Old Testament prophets, for there are New Testament prophets as well...'them that fear thy name, both small and great,' also can not be construed to just mean Jews...as people in the Old and New Testament feared his name and its not just for the great, but for the great and the small, which would include everybody who was a saint...

The contradiction is that Pre-trib has the saints resurrected, judged and rewarded and in heaven before the tribulation even starts...but John places this resurrection, and judgment, and rewards at the 7th Trumpet...This is the last day Jesus was speaking of...it is not the last day that there ever will be, but it means it is the last day of this age, and then the 1000 year reign begins...

Blessings to you

[transmogrified]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Paul is very clear that his rapture will come before wrath

The link is the resurrection...it is one of the foundational principles of the Doctrine of Christ in Heb. 6...The resurrection of the dead is included with the other 7 principle doctrines, itemized as, 'Repentance from dead work, faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and eternal judgement...

So when we say the resurrection is the link, I am saying the sequence of event is what makes this clear...Paul specifically said the Dead in Christ would rise FIRST...so what needs to be done from this point is to find out when the resurrection happens and we know the rapture can not happen before then...

So the foundation of the resurrection is already laid...Paul said he laid the foundation and every man should take heed HOW he builds on it, not WHETHER he builds on it...so when we say 'foundation' we are saying the footprint of the house must be built to the specifications of the foundation...not make a foundation that fits the house...so if the foundation is 48' x 64' feet, then the house has to be 48' x 64' not longer, not shorter...

So when Jesus said all believers will be raised on the last day..he did not mean 'some' believers will be raised on the last day, and some other believers will be raised before the last day...' NO. He meant ALL believers would be raised on the last day...and if ALL believers are raised at the last day, then there are no other believers that could be raised at any other time...

Just like when Paul said 'We shall ALL be changed at the last trump..' he did not mean 'some of us will be changed at the last trump, and the others will be changed before the last trump...' NO. He meant ALL believers will be changed at the last trump...not some before and some at the last trump...

This is why Paul said 'I show you a mystery...' THIS is the mystery revealed...we don't need to look any where else...and what is this mystery? We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

This contains the criteria...1)It must include ALL believers

2) It happens in an instant of time to all the saints...( it does not take 7 years to twinkle ones eye...)  

3) It takes place AT the last trump

So just briefly, one other major scripture you can pin yourself on about the day of the Lord...Acts and Joel specifically say 'the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come..."

This is contrary to how pre-trib describes it...for they say nothing has to happen at all before the Day of the Lord can come...it could happen at any moment...but according to scripture there MUST be certain things that happen first...one is the Resurrection of the dead...another is the sun must be darkened and the moon turned to blood...

This is what Peter was saying in Acts. 3:21..."Whom the heaven MUST receive until the restitution of all things which were spoken by the prophets...' He specifically said the Heaven must receive Jesus until the prophecies have been fulfilled...so right out of the gate we have an error in placing 1 Thess. 5 as an event that happens before these prophecies are fulfilled...what is the error?

1 Thess. 5 specifically states the Lord will descend from heaven...if Peter said the heaven must receive him until the prophecies are fulfilled, then Jesus can not descend from heaven before the tribulation starts. 

So Peter says 'The heaven must receive him until the prophecies are fulfilled...

Pre-trib say 'He will descend from heaven before the prophecies are fulfilled...

If the scripture in 1 Thess. 5 is actually pre-trib then it of course would not fit the description Jesus gave as to when the dead in Christ would rise...first of all not all the dead in Christ could rise, for there would still be saints who would later be killed during the tribulation, and also Jesus did not describe a two stage resurrection for the believers, but specifically said all saints would be raised on the last day...

There is much more to go over...Bless you and good to talk with you

 

[transmogrified]

35 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Could it be then that Jesus was only talking about the Jews - since at that time the Gentile church of today was  still a mystery hidden in God?

The thought that Jesus didn't know about the rapture is taking scripture further than it should go...He said 'of that day and hour knows no man' but he did not say he didn't know that there would be a rapture...He would have been intentionally misleading his disciples to tell them when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place if he really knew that the true disciples would not be here to see it...

[Biblican]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How did John "coordinate" his writing? In many cases he numbers events for proper sequencing. Then he wrote things in the exact order he saw in the vision. 

I agree with you about the 144,000. They are sealed, then they are protected from the stinging locusts, and then they are seen in heaven and John tells us they are "firstfruits." 

I do not agree with you that the two witnesses are churches. God does things with a purpose. There are two men that never died a physical death. Why would God do that when He also wrote that it is appointed unto men once to die? It makes FAR more sense when the two men are killed that it is two men, not two churches.  However, if you wish to believe they are churches, you are free to do that.

Why do you ignore the two olive trees in zech. 4?

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Then are the two annointed ones. Sorry, but this does not sound like a church or a bunch of people who gather on a Sunday.

You can't ignore the fact that they are described as candlesticks. In the context of the book, candlesticks only have one meaning and that is, they are churches. The text is telling us very plainly that they are churches, with possibly two literal representatives. There are only two churches that receive no correction for the Lord and that is Smyrna and Philadelphia. Both of these spiritual conditions represent the spirit of the remnant church that will not compromise. The two churches/witnesses represent that spiritual condition. It's very important for believers to understand that we must emulate that remnant.

In the context of Zechariah 4, the two anointed ones are Joshua the High priest and Zerubbabel the governor. They represent the prophets/spirit and the law/word respectively. The candlestick in that vision represents the church, God's people. The olives trees represent righteousness. Olive trees have many branches, (Jesus said we are the branches in John 15) and are used in scripture to represent the church also. The two witnesses represent the word operating with the Holy Spirit in perfect balance; churches that are being led by the spirit and are remaining faithful to God's word, which is a Philadelphian characteristic.

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Biblican said:

You can't ignore the fact that they are described as candlesticks. In the context of the book, candlesticks only have one meaning and that is, they are churches. The text is telling us very plainly that they are churches, with possibly two literal representatives. There are only two churches that receive no correction for the Lord and that is Smyrna and Philadelphia. Both of these spiritual conditions represent the spirit of the remnant church that will not compromise. The two churches/witnesses represent that spiritual condition. It's very important for believers to understand that we must emulate that remnant.

In the context of Zechariah 4, the two anointed ones are Joshua the High priest and Zerubbabel the governor. They represent the prophets/spirit and the law/word respectively. The candlestick in that vision represents the church, God's people. The olives trees represent righteousness. Olive trees have many branches, (Jesus said we are the branches in John 15) and are used in scripture to represent the church also. The two witnesses represent the word operating with the Holy Spirit in perfect balance; churches that are being led by the spirit and are remaining faithful to God's word, which is a Philadelphian characteristic.

 

Maybe candlesticks have two meanings. I won't put a lot of weight on one world that ends up not making a lot of sense. Everything else about their description tells me they are two men. That does make sense since there are two men that never died.

All those churches listed were Jewish churches that died out when God turned to the Gentiles. I have received no revelation knowledge of chapters 2 and 3 so I cannot comment on them with any authority. Some people imagine each church represents an age. I don't buy that theory either.  I suspect each church is representative of churches today. My guess is, God means for each reader to examine him or her self, and judge themselves.

Do you then expect that the Beast will kill all the people of both churches at the same time? Do you then expect all those people to be raised at the same time?

Another reason I find this theory false is very simple: the pretrib rapture will take out the church (all those born again) before the tribulation. How then can two candlesticks represent two churches?

A correct theory must fit all end time passages.

What then do you do with Paul's letters to the Tessalonians that show us a pretrib rapture?