A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

The problem is there is no marriage supper shown anywhere in scripture to take place in heaven..this is a huge misunderstanding...

When it says 'the marriage of the Lamb is come.' it is apparent when this statement was made was just before the saints leave heaven with Jesus to fight at Armageddon in Rev. 19:7-8. The rest of the phrase is that the marriage is come, and his wife has made herself ready..."  Has made herself ready? You make yourself ready to go to the wedding BEFORE you go to the wedding...She has made herself ready, because she is GOING to the wedding, not because she has already been there. This is what the phrase 'is come' is meaning...the marriage of the Lamb is about to take place.

One thing is obvious, you and I disagree on almost everything.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Did he? 

Not all Israel is Israel. 

The point is, it is NOT for Gentile believers.

And yes, the 70th week will affect all of Israel. They will be hunted down like animals.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Not an answer to my question. 

No, I am not. 

If your question was, am I an dispensationalist, the answer is yes,

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Scripture says otherwise. 

Psalm 102:18
This will be written for the generation to come, that a people yet to be created may praise the LORD. 

Romans 4:23-24
Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must quickly take place 

 

They were written for us.
 

I guess you will have to SEE it.

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Revelation  Some of the Gentile church of today may visit Jerusalem, but until Jesus sets up His throne there, Jerusalem has a whole lot more meaning for the Jews. And the entire 70 weeks (of years) was for THEM. Why would the final week be any different?

The purpose of the final week:

12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Other translations say to shatter, and destroy. The purpose is to bring them to the place where they will know Jesus is their Messiah.

The Gentile church of today already knows this. 

Then in the New Testament, Paul places his rapture just before wrath and John place the start of wrath before the start of the 70th-week. That is why untold million of people today believe the rapture to be pretrib. It is scriptural.

[iamlamad]

52 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Why?

When you first became a Christian was there some other theological perspective to which you subscribed and later changed to Dispensationalism?

No, I grew up knowing dispensationalism. Why I finally began to study on my own, I could see the validity in it.  

[Biblican]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Quote:  ²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It's not "tribulation" it is GREAT tribulation that comes in the last half of the week.

Here, I must tell of a supernatural event in my life. One day as I was reading Daniel 9, verse 27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” suddenly God spoke to me in what sounded like an audible voice: “You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.”

I was suddenly “in the Spirit,” and could not speak, but my spirit man inside immediately spoke and asked, “How would I find that?” I heard what my spirit said.

He answered, “Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3½ year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3½ years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.”

Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded:

“In fact, you could find the entire 70th-week ‘clearly marked.’ ” When He said this, I suddenly understood that the reason I could find the entire 70th-week would be that God would use the same marker.

That came as a download, not in words.

From Jesus’ own words, those living in Judea will flee the moment they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Revelation 12:6. We know then that Revelation 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination. (I allow a few seconds for reaction time.) Since God told me that He marked the exact midpoint, I knew, if I went backward verse by verse from 12:6 I would find His marker.

 When I backed up from verse 12:6, I was looking for a “marker.” I found the 7^th trumpet. John did not see the abomination so did not write of it. But he did see or hear the 7^th trumpet sounding. I was not looking for the abomination but for a marker, and for a marker used three times. The moment I found that the 7th trumpet marked the exact midpoint, I flipped my bible as quickly as possible to the 7th vial and read “it is done:” the last three words in Revelation 16:17.

I knew then that I had found what Jesus had sent me to find: the entire 70^th-week “clearly marked”  with sevens. I rushed back to the 7th seal and read of the 30 minutes of silence. Then I knew for sure: what better way to start the time of Jacob’s trouble on earth than with a time of silence? God has “marked” the 70th-week with sevens.

You are free to disagree, but as a brother in the Lord, this was the head of the church, Jesus Christ, teaching me. In other words, if it does not at first seem right, think about it!

 

The time of Jacob's trouble can't begin until after Israel is invaded and the antichrist is revealed. In Revelation Israel's invasion is not until chapter 11. That in itself is not the great tribulation. That happens when the antichrist is trying to kill everyone who will not worship him after he is reveal and desecraters the temple. The 70th week can cover the time frame from chapter eight on, but it is not confined within seven literal years, and the whole period does not represent the great tribulation. The times in Daniel's vison are symbolic. The times noted for the construction of the temple and the city are much longer than what it took to actually build them which was much shorter. The 490 years is there just to pin point the generation when Jesus arrived counting from the command to build the city. So based on that symbolism in Daniel, the last week, the shorter time span in the prophecy can represent the longer time span. In other words, the last week is not a literal seven years. The events from the The seventh trumpet marks the beginning of the tribulation in the end of Rev. 14. Rev 12 and 13 are bridges or details inserted to described the reason for Israel's and the churches' persecution in 12 and the description of the beasts in 13. We have to cross these bridges to get to the fulfillment of the seventh trumpet in 14 and on. 

What you are seeing is a mid week point in the sounding of the seventh trumpet which can be the middle of a much longer time span that seven years, It has to be because the events described have to cover a longer period of time.

[Biblican]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My question was faulty. Sorry. What I meant to ask was, will the beheaded saints be a part of the Bride of Christ? It seems the parable of the ten virgins is not about the bride but about the guests.

Yes, the beheaded saints are the bride as are all who have actively served the Lord in their lifetimes. The servants sent to call those to the wedding feast in Jesus' parable, are the bride. And the virgins do also represent the church, and the half that have remained faithful are the bride.  The "guests" are still saved but they are believers, not disciples. In other words, even though they are saved, they have not actively served, either through lack of opportunity, receiving the Lord at the last minute before death, or some other reason. Yet they are all still counted as one holy city New Jerusalem that the Lord inhabits.

[transmogrified]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

35 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Please provide the scripture that states the rapture comes just before wrath.

1 Thes. 4 & 5.

Note that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just three verses after his classic rapture verse.

Here is the rapture verse:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them i the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. '

Here is three verses after:

"For ye yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Agreed. The Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, but  we are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief. If we do  not watch, then that day will overtake us as a thief. 

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Notice, He wrote that God would not be setting any appointments with His wrath for us

Here is that verse:

"For God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

Agreed. God has not appointed the saints unto wrath. No saint will be subject to God's wrath... Even if they are in the time of great tribulation God is not going to pour out his wrath on them. Even though it is commonly taught that we must be raptured because God has not appointed us unto wrath it is stated in Tim Lahaye's  book 'Revelation Unveiled,' that the believers during this time will be exempt from his wrath as it states on page 172:

"Believers exempt from this judgement"

"...verse 4 tells us that they have power to hurt only those men who have not the seal of god on their foreheads. Just as God protected the children of Israel in the land of Goshen from the plagues of Egypt,, so he will protect his children during the tribulation period. As the lord Jesus said, 'But he who stands firm to the end will be saved.' God will preserve his believers from the tribulation judgments inflicting the earth. So far the only means by which Christians will die in this period is martyrdom..."

It appears then that the verse 'we are not appointed unto wrath,' does not require anyone to be raptured before the tribulation after all, seeing the saints will not suffer his wrath whether they are in the great tribulation or not. 

Being beheaded for the Word of God is not because God is pouring out his wrath on his saints...remember, we are not appointed to wrath no matter what time frame we are in. 

 

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

He wrote, in short:

WE get raptured and get to live together with him, while at the same time...
THEY get the sudden destruction of the start of God's wrath.

Here is where the timing of the resurrection is so crucial.

It has been acknowledged that the resurrection must take place first, but it has not been acknowledged WHEN this resurrection takes place. If the resurrection takes place before the tribulation, then of course the rapture would also take place before the tribulation.

However, because the resurrection does not take place before the tribulation, then neither does the rapture take place before the tribulation. If the resurrection is put into its proper time frame then the scripture would say this:

"For the dead in Christ shall rise first (on the last day) then (immediately after the resurrection on the Last day) we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

The scripture does not show the saints in heaven until Rev. 19 just before they return with Jesus to Armageddon. It starts out:

"After these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor and power unto the Lord our God..." How did they get there? They got there because the resurrection of all the saints on the last day had just happened and the dead in Christ had risen. But they are not there for long as they  go up to heaven and then descend down that same day with Jesus and all the angels to Armageddon.

Those who are raptured are caught up to meet them as they are coming down to the earth and Jesus and all the saints and angels descend down on to the earth. This is when all the kingdoms of this earth come down and the time comes that the saints possess the kingdom and all the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ.

This is the scenario when the resurrection is placed on the last day...no saints are in heaven during the tribulation since the dead in Christ have not be raised. They not only are resurrected on the last day, they also rise up to heaven on the last day...this is what he meant when he said the dead in Christ shall rise first...they rise up into the air before the living are caught up, but of course they can't rise up into the air unless they have first been resurrected from the dead.

The analogy is seen in the two prophets...They are killed and their body is laying in the street for 3. 5 days. So their mortal bodies are already beginning to decompose, but then it says 'the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stand upon their feet.' They are resurrected at that point and also receive their glorified bodies. They then hear a voice saying 'Come up hither..' and these glorified bodies ascend up into the clouds...this is the resurrection of the dead and their glorification shown in a nutshell. This is what happens to all the dead in Christ...their bodies are lying in the dust of the earth...the spirit of life from God enters them and they are instantly resurrected from the dead and receive their glorified bodies...they then ascend up into heaven.

 But note, this resurrection of the dead in Christ does not happen until the last day, so it cannot be construed to take place before the last day or in other words, before the tribulation.

For those that might think it makes no sense for people to rise up and then come down that very day, this is exactly what happens to these two prophets...when they die, they are just as much 'the dead in Christ' as any other saint, yet they are raised at the 7th Trumpet and are then going to be coming back with Jesus with all his saints on that very day to Armageddon. This is the day that he comes with ten thousands of his saints...this is the day that Zech. 14 stated...'The Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee...' This is the day that Jesus sets his foot upon the Mount of Olives...this is the day of the Lord.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WE get raptured and get to live together with him, while at the same time...
THEY get the sudden destruction of the start of God's wrath.

So with the resurrection in its proper place, consider the above quote: We get raptured (on the last day) and go to be with the Lord (on the last day) while at the same time (on the last day) they get sudden destruction of the start of God's wrath (on the last day) 

This is in essence what happens but the time frame for the sudden destruction does not take place over 7 years...the sudden destruction is Jesus coming down from heaven with his armies to destroy the ten kings and their armies at Armageddon. 

But yes, there is wrath during the tribulation period...It specifically states at the 5th trumpet men were killed with the locusts that came out of the pit, also at the 6th trumpet  there were plagues and men were killed and repented not of their deeds. There are other examples, but when it comes to what is called the 'Day of Wrath' it is specifically identified to be the last day, also called the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God by Paul in Romans 2.

At the sixth seal it is said 'the great day of his wrath is come' which means it was about to take place. In Rev. 15 there were seven angles and they were given the seven last plagues, and it is said 'For in them is filled up the wrath of God.'

It itemizes the events that take place with these 7 last plagues and these all take place on the last day in contrast to some of the other 7 trumpets where it specifically states things like 'men were tormented for 5 months...'

So this Day of Wrath is not the whole period of the tribulation as it specifically states it isn't about to come until the 6th seal is opened.

So what I am getting at is that the day of the Lord is the day that Jesus comes, and although there are events that take place during the tribulation that his wrath is apparent, the actual Day of the Lord, or the Day of Wrath, or the Day of the wrath and righteous judgment of God does not occur until Jesus actually comes.

Here are some scriptures that show how scripture identifies this day:

Zech. 14:1 - "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth, in that day shall there be one Lord and his name one."
 1) This is not the case during the tribulation period...it says the beast was given power over all nations, kindreds and tongues for 3. 5 years. When Jesus comes is when he begins to reign...as it says 'When the Son of man shall come...THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...He is not ruling upon the earth until he comes

2) When the stone smites the image on the feet, THEN is it stated that the kingdoms of the earth became the kingdoms of our Lord, not before then.

 Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."

1) This is Jesus coming at Armageddon on the day of his wrath...he kills all the captains and mighty men that are gathered there and the blood runs up to the horses bridles...

Is. 4:2 "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel."

1) Israel is not grafted in until Jesus comes as it states in Zech. 14...they are not beautiful and glorious until God pours out his spirit upon them...this is not the case during the tribulation period...they are deceived by the Anti Christ as he sets in the temple of God showing himself to be God...

Zech. 2:11 "And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day..."

1) The nations are converted at the Second Coming , not during the tribulation period...when it says 'all kindreds of the earth shall mourn because of him...' They are mourning in repentance and will accept the rebuke of the Lord and be converted..as it states...they shall beat the swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and learn war no more..." 

Zech. 14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mt. of Olives which is before Jerusalem on the east..."

1) Jesus of course does not come until the last day, which is called the Day of the Lord...he does not come during the tribulation period.

Romans 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasures up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God."

1) This day of judgment and day of wrath are the same day...the judgment of all people does not occur during the tribulation period but on one specific day called the Day of the Lord, or the end of the age, or the harvest.

Acts 17:31 "Because he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath appointed..." 

1) He doesn't judge the world until the day of judgment...There must be a resurrection of everyone before he judges the world ...this happens on one specific day, not during the entire tribulation period. 

There are other scriptures, but probably the most clear is what is said at the sixth seal, for it specifically states the 'Day of his wrath is come...' meaning the Day of wrath had NOT COME prior to this...meaning the Day of the Lord had NOT COME prior to this...meaning the Day of Judgment, meaning the Last day, meaning the end of the age..ect...ect..

So in light of the sixth seal it should be obvious we cannot say the Day of the Lord begins immediately after the alleged pre trib rapture...the Day of the Lord Paul was talking about is the same Day of Wrath that occurs at the 6th seal. 

Yes, there is a time of great tribulation, but this cannot be confused with how the scripture defines the Day of the Lord...

If it is believed that the Day of the Lord begins immediately after the alleged pre trib rapture, do you also believe immediately after the rapture that the sun must be darkened and the moon turned to blood before it begins?

Please provide scripture that shows the marriage supper in heaven...we can read it is stated that it is come, but how would anyone be there if there was no resurrection until the last day? 

Blessings to you- Gary 

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Your feast in Isaiah is a different feast, obviously.

Please tell me when this feast occurs and who will be in it. 

Please provide evidence that the saints are resurrected to heaven before the tribulation to go the marriage supper. If the believers are not resurrected until the last day, no one would be there.

 

 

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note third, a ceremony always comes before the supper.

There were no saints in heaven before the resurrection on the last day...this is when the dead in Christ rise up to heaven...meaning they were not in heaven before. How would they get married to Jesus if they weren't there until the last day? 

If the ceremony means the wedding then they would have to be there. Please provide evidence that shows any saints were ever resurrected to heaven before the last day.

Blessings to you- Gary