A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

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 Because this op is on the pre-wrath rapture I'll keep my comments attendant to that subject. In Matthew 24 Jesus plainly tells his disciples they will be handed over to tribulation! That alone should stop EVERYONE from believing in a PREwrath rapture. Jesus also plainly states the floods came and took everyone away and destroyed them. It was the ones who remained behind that went on to live in a covenant relationship with God. LaHaye's and Jenkins' entire line of "Left Behind" media is ALL built on a gross misreading of scripture. 

Speaking of holes.....you just dug one. We must consider time, timing and the movement of time in Jesus' end-time discourses. Jesus SAID that in this life we would have tribulation. He said the world hated Him so would hate US, but that was when He was talking about the church age. He finally left the church age when He mentioned the abomination that will divide the future 70th week. Then He said there would be days of great tribulation such as has never been seen on this planet. This is some unknown time after the midpoint of the week, and in Revelation would be after God warns people not to take the mark, as written in chapter 14. Then the days of great tribulation Jesus warned us of will begin. 

When the murdering of the saints reaches a peak, so to speak, the wrath of Satan showing, God will cause the angels to pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. So the days of GT will end, but the DAYS will continued to the 1260th day. Then the week will end, but Jesus will not return on that 1260th day. Some unknown time after, suddenly Jesus will light up a dark sky like lightning, and He will come - with the angels and with the saints.  The theory of a posttrib rapture is only a theory and it is bogus.  I have written two books against the "posttrib, prewrath rapture" theory.

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Jesus also plainly states the floods came and took everyone away and destroyed them.

You wrote of people not following what is written exactly? I think you just dug a deeper hole.  Note the preposition.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus' only point in bringing up Noah was the suddenness of their destruction. Same for Lot. 

It is true that back then the flood destroyed them. That was not the point Jesus was making. When Jesus comes to Armageddon, there is going to be a lot of sudden deaths. I suspect every nation with a standing army will send troops to wipe Israel off the map. There is going to be standing room only because of so many troops in Israel.  They will not live long when Jesus returns.

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LaHaye's and Jenkins' entire line of "Left Behind" media is ALL built on a gross misreading of scripture. 

You may not believe people will be left behind. Perhaps you don't even believe Jesus will come pretrib for His church. I think you will find out it is true if you live a few years longer. I have no doubt they stretched things. I have not read their works. 

When I read Paul, I think he taught that the rapture would come just before wrath, and probably the rapture would be the trigger for wrath.

When I read John in Revelation I see that wrath as in the Day of His wrath starts before the 70th week starts - so I believe pretrib is truth.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

The last days began in the New Testament era and the ends of the ages came in the NT era, as well. There is no such thing as a church age mentioned in the Bible and the day of the Lord in 2 Thes. 2 is a conditional event. It might not happen (or have happened ). These and other plainly stated facts are right there in your Bible as well as mine. 

I am beginning to wonder if I should believe anything you write. You certainly read your bible differently that I read mine. 

No such thing? You are not understanding what you read then:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Paul is calling this Gentile age we are living in as a dispensation of grace. It is the Grace of God that He put blindness in part on the Jews and sent Paul to the Gentiles. But the day is soon to come that the fullness of the Gentiles will be come in, and the rapture will then come. 

However one reads 2 Thes. 2, it MUST agree with Paul's first letter. I think it does, but it takes study to understand that passage.  For example, why would Paul write, "and now you now..." who the restrainer is, when he did not come right out and tell us? I suspect, or guess, he wrote it so that if it fell into Roman hands they would not understand it.

AS I read that passage, it is the significant departing (rapture) that must come first, as that agrees with Paul's first letter. This is confirmed by Paul writing that the man of sin IS revealed in verse 3b. How could he be, unless at that time the restrainer has been taken out of the way?

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

Start a thread on the Law and PM me with its link and I'll gladly weigh in. I don't like moving around from topic to topic, especially when unrelated to an op. 

So sorry, but I don't think we have much to talk about, for we are going to disagree on almost every point.

[Biblican]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you would say this because you believe your theory to be correct. Everyone does. I think my theory to be correct.

My study of Revelation  started with the Holy Spirit gently pushing me to begin to study Revelation and end times. His push got so powerful that for about three years I read nothing else but end times passages in the bible. When my church was doing a study on Ephesians, I just could not read there, and continued reading Daniel, Revelation and the minor prophets on the end times, while praying much in the Spirit. I probably read parts of Daniel and Revelation over a hundred times.

Finally one day as I was reading Daniel 9, verse 27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” sudden God spoke to me in what seemed like an audible voice: “You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.”

I was dumbfounded, and could not speak, but my spirit man immediately spoke and ask “How would I find that?”

He answered, “Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.” Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded: “In fact, you could find the entire 70th week ‘clearly marked.’” When He said this, I suddenly understood that the reason I could find the entire 70th week would be that God would use the SAME MARKER. That came as a download, not in words.

This event started me on a diligent search! I already knew about the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years He spoke of: two given as 1260 days, two given as 42 months, and one given the way Daniel wrote as time, times and half of time. So I concentrated my search on chapters 11, 12, and 13 in Revelation.

I would guess I studied this hours each day for perhaps 2 months, trying to find the exact midpoint “clearly marked.” During this time I continually “bugged” God, for help. I studied how John broke from his “real-time” timeline of the seals, trumpets and vials between the 6th and 7th seals, and the 6th and 7th trumpets. I began to bug God about that, too.

I came to realize John’s narrative was like a long play with intermissions. I named his break between the 6th and 7th seals as an “intermission.” At a play, when an intermission comes, the curtain is closed and they rearrange the setting for the next act. Then I understood what John did. You see, before the 7th seal is broken to begin the 70th week, the setting MUST BE rearranged! There are two events that absolutely must take place before the 7th seal can be broken to open the 70th week and begin the trumpet judgments: the rapture of the church (or the church seen in heaven after the rapture) and the sealing of the 144,000.

The church MUST be in heaven before God’s wrath begins, and it begins with the great earthquake at the 6th seal. So John saw the raptured church already in heaven in chapter 7, right after this great earthquake. This does not mean the rapture came after the earthquake, for they were ALREADY in heaven when John saw them. (The great crowd too large to number.)

The 144,000 must be sealed for their protection from the trumpet judgments before the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week. So John left the real-time of the breaking of the seals to “rearrange the set” before he saw the breaking of the 7th seal. Once the sealing was accomplished and the church safely in heaven, then the 70th week could begin.

I discovered the same kind of thing between the 6th and 7th trumpets, but it was not as clean cut or as easy to spot. I call this intermission the “Midpoint Intermission,” for it comes very close to the abomination that divides the week.

 I found an easy way to show where the exact midpoint is. Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination, and we know it is the abomination that will divide the week from Daniel 9. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Therefore we know the abomination event must be one or two seconds before 12:6. If we back up verse by verse to find the abomination, we won’t find it. John did not see it and did not record it. But if we back up verse by verse looking for a MARKER, we find the 7th trumpet. I am convinced that the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to “mark” the time on earth that the man of sin enters the temple and declares that he is God.

When God was teaching me chapters 4 & 5, He asked me three questions I could not answer. Finally, he sent me to chapter 12 to get the key so I could answer His questions,

Chapter 11 marks the midpoint.

Chapter 12 was Jesus introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. He will be working behind the Beast. The Dragon was mentioned 32 times.

Chapter 13 was Jesus introducing John to the Beast and false prophet and what they would by doing during the last half of the week.

Chapter 14 is the introduction to the days of great tribulation.

A lot of what you are saying the Lord showed me. I studied the Book of Revelation exclusively for six years and did an expository study. When I was baptized with the Holy Spirit God gave me the gift of dream interpretation and the ability to understand prophetic symbolism. What I teach is what I was shown and it is not theory. I  said that the tribulation begins in 14. The remnant church will be out before that, they are taken up in 11. Those left behind and those who come during the tribulation will be gather just before Jesus returns before the bowl judgments, God's wrath is poured out. This is what Paul is referring to in Thessalonians, the first resurrection. 

But we need to understand that when the seals in heaven were opened in 4 and 5 - they were opened. It does mean that those events were being released at that time. John was being shown principles that would be operating in the last days concerning God's church.

In 12 we certainly are shown what the devil will be doing and has been doing since the church began, he is behind the persecutions. Like I said, 12 and 13 are inserted as a bridge to transition us from the warning period of the trumpets to the tribulation. You are not that far off. 

[Biblican]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You and I are just not going to have much to talk about.

I disagree with almost everything you have said.

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

[iamlamad]

53 minutes ago, Biblican said:

A lot of what you are saying the Lord showed me. I studied the Book of Revelation exclusively for six years and did an expository study. When I was baptized with the Holy Spirit God gave me the gift of dream interpretation and the ability to understand prophetic symbolism. What I teach is what I was shown and it is not theory. I  said that the tribulation begins in 14. The remnant church will be out before that, they are taken up in 11. Those left behind and those who come during the tribulation will be gather just before Jesus returns before the bowl judgments, God's wrath is poured out. This is what Paul is referring to in Thessalonians, the first resurrection. 

But we need to understand that when the seals in heaven were opened in 4 and 5 - they were opened. It does mean that those events were being released at that time. John was being shown principles that would be operating in the last days concerning God's church.

In 12 we certainly are shown what the devil will be doing and has been doing since the church began, he is behind the persecutions. Like I said, 12 and 13 are inserted as a bridge to transition us from the warning period of the trumpets to the tribulation. You are not that far off. 

I disagreed with what you said. The days of GREAT tribulation start in chapter 14.

The 70th week starts with the 7th seal, the midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial ends the week. "The Tribulation" therefore starts with the 7th seal and the first trumpet sound.  It is OK if you disagree.

Where is there a catching up of any kind in Chapter 11? Paul shows the rapture as just before wrath, which would be just before the 6th seal. It is no wonder then, John SAW the raptured church in heaven and wrote it as the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7.

Sorry, but I don't buy your "bridge."

[iamlamad]

56 minutes ago, Biblican said:

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

: -))) Finally!  We agree on something!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I wish people would stop saying that. If a person listens to Dispensationalist teachers, fellowships with other Dispensationalists, reads a study Bible with commentary by Dispensationalists, etc., etc., etc., then they are read into Dispensationalism and this is all the more so if they do not learn other perspectives! and even greater still of the other perspectives not learned are those the Chruch has held for centuries before Dispensational Premillennialism ever existed. This is just as true and valid when folks say the same about Arminius, Calvin, Luther, Nicea, Augustine, etc.  No one is without influence. No one is without bias. 

You seem so taken up with your dislike of dispensationalism. What is past is past! Obey Paul when he wrote "forgetting what is behind..." 

What is more important is what is coming. How many times can we find scriptures about Christ returning to earth? There are many. Wouldn't it be better to study what is coming rather than what was? Well, that is my opinion. 

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No one is without influence. No one is without bias. 

That would include you. 

It seems from what I read that MANY in the past believed in Amillennialism. Sorry, I don't see that in the bible. I see Christ coming for His church pretrib, and almost at the same moment God angry with the world, with judgment starting.

In short, if Jesus could come tonight, I think it important that I am expecting Him.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And it is! I am not saying that because I hold a different perspective. I say that because of the evidence contained in these posts. Posts, not posters. Keep the posts about the posts, and not the posters.  

No one has provided an answer for how or why the last days lasted 2000 years. That position is unprecedented in the Bible. No one has explained how the last days can last 2000 years but not 1800 years (as was claimed at the beginning of Dispensationalism) or 4000 years or 2000 times 2000. That is two holes within the case I have been presented. 

YOu think I am wrong only because I disagree with you. Truthfully, we each have a 50% chance of being wrong. Perhaps it is your theory rather than mine. Ah! The evidence given in the posts: but you READ that evidence with your mindset. 

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No one has provided an answer for how or why the last days lasted 2000 years.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps God planned it that way? He could have given us MUCH more information about these things, but HE chose not to. Maybe He did not want Satan to know His plans. Peter has come as close as anyone to answering you:

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Another passage I am sure you are familiar with: God is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles.  TRuthfully, I am GLAD He waited for ME.

You may NOT have read: From "The Inquisition and Judaism: A Sermon Addressed to Jewish Martyrs"

"It was declared in the academy or rather Elijah’s house, that the world is to subsist six thousand years, and then for one thousand it is to remain waste…”

God created in 6 days and rested on the 7^th: “The meaning of this, that in six thousand years the Lord God will bring all things to an end. And what is that he saith “and he rested the seventh day?” He meaneth this: that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the wicked one, and judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then He shall gloriously rest in that seventh day.”

The answer to your question then is that God created for 6 days and rested on the 7th.

I think the book of Revelation confirms this. There is going to be a 1000 year reign.

[iamlamad]

28 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I Have posted the scriptures. I have not "read" the Bible. 

If the Bible has Jesus stating "You will see..... You will hear....." I read that as stated, and I accept it and believe it as stated. I do not add from or subtract from it AT ALL. 

If the Bible has Jesus stating, "You will see..... You will hear....." one of the things I DON NOT do is read something into those words. I do NOT change the word "you" to a "they". Dispensationalists do that, 

I give you scripture AS WRITTEN. 

 

And if you read it any way other than how it is written then it is your own reading that should not be trusted..... because it is not what the Bible states. 

You might ask yourself, "How could I make such a mistake as to not see the clearly stated "yous"? How could I turn them all into implicit theys and not what the word of God actually states?" Well, the short answer is very easy: You have never known anything other than Dispensational Premillennialism so it seems good and right. After all, there are changes in the Bible. 

I am not asking anyone to believe me. Believe what is plainly stated in the written Word of God, and believe it first as stated, and on the occasion when there is a scripturally-provided warrant for interpretation use other scripture. Don't interpret it because a post-canonical eschatological doctrine says, "This here is one of the places that needs interpreting. This here is a place where the words mean ....(something other than what is stated)". Don't trust anyone asking you to believe something not stated. 

Including me. 

But make note of one simple irrefutable fact: I backed up everything I said with scripture plainly stated as written. 

How about that? Why is it automatically a matter of not trusting me instead of beginning with yourself. If the roles were reversed would you not tell me to start with self-examination? Are there two different standards by which our use of scripture should be measured, or one? 

We must do more that take scripture as stated. Here is a silly example, but it will get a point across:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

We need to determine TO WHOM a scripture is being addressed.
We need to understand each passage in its context.

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I backed up everything I said with scripture plainly stated as written. 

Everyone says the same thing on these threads!

I could post 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and say I backed up a pretrib rapture with scripture - but the truth is, we all read scripture differently.

A case in point is Jesus and the gathering (with a trumpet) after the tribulation. A beginning reader could read that and say, "there it is, right there in black and white: this is Paul's rapture." (And he or she could quote that scripture.)