Hell

[Marathoner]

35 minutes ago, Starise said:

No I don't think most will accept it because people want simple solutions to sometimes complex issues.

I agree in principle with what you wrote, but felt the above pierces the heart of the matter. I'm inclined to think that it isn't necessarily the simple solution that many desire but rather, what's being taught and reinforced in the pews and Sunday school classes is the culprit. @Josheb will be familiar with the mechanism involved:

Enculturation. 

Case in point, I wasn't brought up in the pews. I never found the notion that death didn't exist prior to Adam's sin expressed in the scriptures and as I mentioned in my last post, discovered that there is more than one meaning associated with death extant in the same. There is more than one instance where the dead are referred to as living beings (let the dead bury their own dead, for example) and most importantly, dead in one's trespasses. 

I'm also of the curious opinion that since the scriptures are inspired by the Spirit of the living God, and thus are given to the heirs of God (His children of promise and the seed of Abraham) in His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, for our benefit. The scriptures address us from the beginning to the conclusion of the canon. 

The scriptures speak of the glories of God so we might acquire an understanding of the Holy One, the Son of God. After all, immediately following that day when the Lord called me, His Spirit sent me to a teacher who taught me what I needed to know. He taught me about Jesus Christ according to the scriptures.   

Edited March 15, 2022 by Marathoner

[Ani Tefillah]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Why is death imperfect? 

If there was no death then the most laws of physics were radically different than anything we now experience. 

• Falling objects did not exist. 
• A moving object didn't stop moving if acted upon, or if it was stopped by an immovable force or object no damage or destruction occurred. 
• Seeds could not/would not die to produce other fruit-bearing crops. 
• No plant could ever be harvested. None of the microbes that are part of the normal process of decomposition would exist, or if they did exist they had completely different lives. 
• If the cultural mandate to subdue the earth and rule over it entailed expanding the garden around the globe, making the desolate into the Edenic then either the desolate had to die or no Edenic expansion was possible. 
• The soil contains organic nutrients that come from decaying plants and animals so either God was a constant source of those nutrients or the soil was eventually depleted..... making it desolate. 
• No insect of the ground was ever stepped upon. No human or other larger animal ever stepped on a bug and if they did the bug survived the squashing. 
• Animals lived forever. They were immortal. The mayfly (which lives only for one day), the pgimy gobi (fish that lives for only 59 days), and thepaedophryne amanuesis frog (which lives for one year), lived forever and there would be billions of animals on the planet. Population growth would never decline due to deaths. 
• No one would cut a finger or get any other kind of abrasion, much less a puncture requiring medical attention and if so none of them could be lethal. 
• No need for much of medical science. 
• We'd all have the same skin with which we were born. The normal process by which dead skin cells are sloughed off the body wouldn't exist. 

When God said, "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die," He was not speaking of physical death. Not only is it impossible for an immortal creature to die (making the command and its threat nonsensical, but Adam did not die in the day he ate, and Paul explicitly stated, "So also it is with the resurrection of the dead. it is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body" (1 Cor. 15:42). 

Resurrection was not an afterthought. Calvary was not a contingency plan. Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice prior to the creation of the world, and God is not dependent upon the existence of sin. It was apportioned for man to die once and after that face judgment (Heb. 9:29). That wasn't a change God made after Genesis 3:6. That was always the plan. Jesus' sacrifice was not a "maybe;" it was a guaranteed already-decided-upon event known prior to a single atom being created, a single human ever drawing breath, or a single sin occurring by which death entered the world. 

???? 

Josh, you just said death entered the world after sin. 

Yep. I did just say that. What kind of death entered the world at Genesis 3:6 when Adam disobeyed God and ate the forbidden kiwi? Transgressional death. 

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions...

Ephesians 2:1-2
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

 

The person who is "dead in transgression," or "dead in sin," is still physically alive, pumping blood and breathing air. Some folks call this "spiritual death," but scripture itself never uses that term. It speaking of living breathing humans being dead, dead in transgression, sin, or trespass. 

Furthermore, Jesus IS the resurrection! Or, to place the emphasis elsewhere, Jesus is THE resurrection! Jesus is the RESURRECTION! There is no resurrection without death. There is no death without life and not all life and not all death is identical. A living person can also be dead in sin. A living person can also be dead to sin, AND dead in Christ. A living dead person. Likewise, a dead-in-sin person can be physically living = a dead living person. 

 

So let me bring all this together because this all started with the question of whether or not death lives in eternity since death gets tossed into the fiery lake. This OP is about hell, and few of the posters in the discussion of this op has posited some positions I've asked about, and commented about. For example, 

• Does death exist after it's defeated and tossed in the fiery lake of destruction, the second death? Does death die? Does it die to the point of no longer existing, or is it still lingering around in the eternal kingdom of God? 
• Upon what basis in scripture would it be concluded the most basic laws of physics, biology, and more be said not to exist in a world in which no death of any kind is said to exist because certain deaths serve a very good and useful purpose, including but not limited to the death of a seed planted to bear future crop. 
• How can Jesus be the resurrection if there is no death? 
• How can it be claimed death did not exist in Eden if God told Adam and Eve they would die if they disobeyed Him? The word "immortal" literally means "not subject to death," or "unable to die." How could God tell the undie-able they would in fact die? 

Eden was not magic or magical. It was earthly, but not sinfully so. Before anyone weighs in, let me encourage the reading of my reply to this op HERE, and some of the posts that prompted my various lines of inquiry HERE, HERE, HERE, and most importantly HERE. All of the last few posts of mine are related especially to that last exchange. 

 

Let me add in closing, Eden was perfect. However, the existence of certain kinds of death is no bad, nor an imperfection (morally or functionally). Eden was perfect but it was not magical. Perhaps earthquakes, volcanos, and tsunamis or other "natural" disasters did not exist but that does not mean someone falling off a cliff did not die at the end of that fall and a variety of conflicts with the whole of scripture instantly ensue once ALL forms of death are denied Eden. The first conflict is the conflict that ensues with how can an immortal human die? 

Because we all know he did die. 

Twice. 

Once in transgression. 

And then, much, much later again physically. 

And we are all yearning for the place where no physical death exists AND not transgressional death exists. We long to be raised Imperishable and immortal. 

If death doesn't die in the fiery lake then it continues living in eternity on the other side of resurrection. Is that the place for which any of you hope?  

 

The word "immortal" literally means, "not subject to death," and "unable to die." 

I'm sorry to interfere in your thread, as I may have misunderstood, so I will quietly leave this thread. May the Lord's peace and grace be with you! 

[Marathoner]

On 1/21/2022 at 8:48 PM, Starise said:

I know I'm probably going to get burned for bringing this up again ( pun intended this time).

I wanted to have a discussion on Hell as translated in scripture and specifically as it relates to the place that both men and angels go to.

 

The general concept of hell isn't mentioned in the OT. Adam's curse was death and hard work to survive. Nothing was specifically mentioned in that text about hell. 

 

Hell was multi purposed for men since the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels. On one hand it can be seen that even though Hell is an eternal place made for eternal beings, the angels....... men not under the blood of Christ will go there as well.

 

Alongside the biblical ideas on hell there are parallel ideas coming from ancient pagan religions originating from Babylon. Sometimes these ideas get mingled into Christian discussions on  biblical hell and can skew our ideas on the place.

 

The idea that hell wasn't originally made for men seems to indicate a plan B. Most likely hell simply serves two purposes very well. I believe there are two different outcomes.

 

Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in.

 

The wicked are compared to chaff and are snuffed out. There are so many reasons for this I can't cover all of them in the first post.

 

God is good, God is just, God is fair. God is merciful. We are commanded to love our enemies. What example does God set here? 

I don't think I've addressed your OP so it behooves me to do so. You excel at kicking off interesting and excellent discussions, brother. 

Don't worry, I'm not about to douse you with a flamethrower. 

The concept of Hell is front-loaded with all manner of notions and doctrines, some of which are decidedly alien to scripture. The Vatican/RCC has been exceedingly influential where modern concepts and beliefs of Hell are concerned, though they are surely not the only source (I don't buy into the belief that The Vatican is "the" boogeyman). Some of these notions, in my estimation, arise from a misunderstanding of the scriptures regarding what I believe Hell really is:

A cognate of the lake of fire. Hell is like Gehenna, and Gehenna is accordingly an analogy of the lake of fire. The symbology is what's important here. 

What does fire do? It destroys, of course. Without launching into a dreadfully boring exposition of relevant physics, we can cut to the chase and agree upon what fire does to flammable material: it consumes what it burns utterly. Gone... destroyed. 

This is the unfathomable mercy and goodness of God toward man --- even man over whom the second death has power --- that there comes an end to his suffering and misery, for wasn't our Father moved for the sake of us all? As the scripture teaches us, He causes rain to fall upon the heads of both the righteous and the wicked, an expression of His longsuffering; in the last days, God sent His only begotten Son to redeem man so he might take his rightful place as joint heirs with Christ. This is the expression of His salvation for as the scripture says, salvation is the right hand of God.  

It pleases the Almighty to give His beloved eternal life and as the Lord Himself tells us, the second death has no power over us. We shall never taste death. What is the second death according to the scriptures? The lake of fire, which is represented by the imagery of Gehenna and expressed as a fiery hell. Hell and the lake of fire are one and the same. 

I think it's crucial to point out the mercy of God toward man --- yes, even wicked men --- expressed over and over again throughout the canon of scripture. There are some whom, when they are resurrected and judged by the Son of God upon His throne, shall be cast into the lake of fire (Hell). This is the second death and because we both see and understand what fire does, we know this means destruction. They are destroyed, body and soul, in Hell (the lake of fire). 

The lake of fire/Hell is a singular event in the cosmos reserved for the devil, his angels, the beast, the false prophet, those who worship the beast, and those men whose names are not written in the book of life. After this is done, the final enemy --- death --- is cast into the lake of fire. Whatsoever is cast into the lake of fire is no more. 

This is a theme we find described prophetically in the Law and the Prophets (the Old Testament) but expressed explicitly in the New Testament scriptures. The second death is final, a judgment which denies eternal life to the condemned.  

[Marathoner]

I agree. It's better to give an honest report and say "I don't know" rather than pretend as if we do know, when in fact we don't. Here, I know this:

The Lord not only approves of an honest report, but He delights in honesty! (That's stated in the scriptures)

By the same token, let the reader measure my assertions by scripture. Did death exist prior to the disobedience of Adam? Yep, I know this by virtue of the scriptures. Josh did a more thorough job than I did in laying it out, but I'm of the opinion that the example of seeds and fruits is more than adequate to prove the veracity of my answer to his question.

The proverbial cow would give up the proverbial ghost. Rather gruesomely, but then biological life is famous for being messy that way.   

Edited March 15, 2022 by Marathoner

[Marathoner]

32 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I cannot think of anything more complicated than God. Creation comes in a distant second. 

 

Just saying.

There's no question that God is beyond the capacity of our darkened minds to comprehend, which makes His love and regard for us all the more unfathomable to grasp. If there was anything I had "right" before life as I knew it was over (and paradoxically began), it was my belief that God was beyond my understanding. 

Marathoner had that down pat but to my speechless astonishment, I was dead wrong about how it was impossible to know God. Fail!, because God is pleased to reveal Himself to us in His Son. It's His good pleasure to do so. 

This is the only way to know and be known by the Almighty, but I digress. Of all the creation (cosmos/universe) which the Lord has made, don't get me started about mankind! 

[debrakay]

17 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

I agree. It's better to give an honest report and say "I don't know" rather than pretend as if we do know, when in fact we don't. Here, I know this:

The Lord not only approves of an honest report, but He delights in honesty! (That's stated in the scriptures)

By the same token, let the reader measure my assertions by scripture. Did death exist prior to the disobedience of Adam? Yep, I know this by virtue of the scriptures. Josh did a more thorough job than I did in laying it out, but I'm of the opinion that the example of seeds and fruits is more than adequate to prove the veracity of my answer to his question.

The proverbial cow would give up the proverbial ghost. Rather gruesomely, but then biological life is famous for being messy that way.   

Reaping and harvesting.  Harvesting and reaping.  I agree that it has been going on since the beginning.  Without one, you do not have the other. Dead plants and their seeds grow a new plant over and over and over.   Today, for me, it is all about the lost (dead) souls but I am starting to think a vegetable garden would be good with the price increases going on.

[Marathoner]

23 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Reaping and harvesting.  Harvesting and reaping.  I agree that it has been going on since the beginning.  Without one, you do not have the other. Dead plants and their seeds grow a new plant over and over and over.   Today, for me, it is all about the lost (dead) souls but I am starting to think a vegetable garden would be good with the price increases going on.

Quite right, sister. We also know that no tomato we buy can compare to the tomato produced in our own garden... unless we happen to be a horrid gardener, that is. 

The scriptures are rich with analogy and symbolism, referred to as "prophet-speak" by a dear brother here on Worthy, all of which instruct us regarding pertinent reality. I was once a horrid gardener but after serving my adopted mother as her protector, I became her son and protege of the soil. Fruitful yield starts with a seed in the soil, so how we deal with soil is critically important; the attention we devote to the success of the future harvest produces the tender shoot from the death of the seed in the soil; and if we desire a bountiful harvest, then we must prune the plants of the garden. 

Pruning doesn't look pretty at all. The first time I watched my adopted mother snip away in the greenhouse, I was horrified. "But... but... but how can they possibly survive? Oy vey, the poor things look like they had an argument with your shears and lost!"

I also learned how to graft successfully under her tutelage, all of which brought the farming and vine dressing analogies of the scriptures to life before my eyes. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Marathoner

[Starise]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, this is partly true. Creation also has a beginning and an end. Cycles exist within the beginning and the end. BUT it is apportioned for man to live once and the die. 

Yes, not going all eastern on you here. Everything has a beginning and an end.

So let me see here if I have your ideas on this correct concerning death,

When God told Adam he would surely die maybe this came as some surprise since Adam was the very first man he may not have had ideas about death at all, especially since this was the very first 'cycle' of animals and plants. There were some unique things about that first couple that were not duplicated so far as we know. Being created in an adult state with some amount of mature knowledge. Being the first humans. No roads to follow so to speak, they would have been the first true trial blazers.

I see that last bolded point as relating to 1 Cor. 13:12.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Did Adam have a knowledge he never had to learn which was intrinsic to his creation?

Even if we say this wasn't the case entirely, we could probably argue Adam, at the very least, had a connection to God like no other. 

What I hear you saying (if I could hear you), is THIS is what was lost. Communion with god was dead. Adam became more like the animals and less like God the day he and Eve sinned.

So what did death look like then as opposed to death now? Men lived hundreds of years longer for one thing. What would physical death have looked like with no sin? 

[Marathoner]

47 minutes ago, Josheb said:

If you die dead then you suffer the second dead, which is really the third death. Dead in transgression, physically dead, and fiery-lake dead. Thrice dead. No more dead for you. With that death even death dies and is no more .

This might strike you as quaint but coming to terms with the scriptural context of dead and death was a critical step in learning about proper exegesis. 

I consider animals who are innocent in their way, and we know that they return to the dust; the end of all flesh which is like grass. Man shares the same end as animals and plants in this way. All living creatures on earth will "push daisies" one day, including daisies (heh). Where is this in relation to the first sentence in the quote above? "If you die dead..."

I might call this the "all flesh is like grass" death: the death suffered by the proverbial Edenic cow who plummeted 5,000 feet. 

After the Lord commanded Adam not to eat the fruit of a specific tree and he did anyway, the outcome of the man's disobedience did not mean the (immediate) end of his flesh. This is directly related to 'let the dead bury their own dead' and 'dead in your trespasses.' In all three cases, the state of being dead while this flesh and blood endures is an eye-opener. Adam wasn't dead until he disobeyed God. The location in relation to your great sentence: "If you die dead..."

This is the "dead in your trespasses" state of being dead while continuing to endure in this flesh.

The second death --- this is my only point of dissension because, like the "all flesh is like grass" death (this is getting interesting ), this death is... well, death --- is final, the recompense for man who dies dead in his trespasses. The location in your sentence: If you die dead then you suffer the second dead..."

This is "the lake of fire death." It is given for men to die and then face judgment... so the dead ("dead in your trespasses" meaning) are resurrected to be judged by the Son of God. 

Which, for those whose names are not written in the book of life, means they will be utterly consumed in Hell (the lake of fire). Destroyed. Gone.
 

[Marathoner]

My exegetical journey leads me to an entirely contentious place. We read relevant scripture from Revelation regarding the resurrection of the dead (not in Christ Jesus) and their subsequent judgment in the end by the Lord, reading that those whose names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire (Hell). 

I notice the resulting implication: some of the dead might be written in the book of life. Interesting. With that, I'm off to an appointment. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Marathoner