What is the 'New Covenant'?

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Jesus came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The 10 tribes scattered to the world who didn't know who they were anymore.  A blinding of sorts yes?    Has there or has there not been one of those sheep born in the last 2000 years?  If one has been born and didn't become a Christian and died NOT BEING SAVED then what happens to them since He doesn't lose one?  
Also, having been scattered and not knowing who they were wouldn't the very words in the bible call to them to become a Christian?  Would a Saviour being born in Zion call them?  If they don't know they are of Jacob and believe they are just of some gentile nation and their numbers were as the sands of the sea, would the 'gentile' church be made mostly of the House of Israel.?   Is that too many questions?  I say YES.  So any thoughts?  
d

The problem is just a question of a seed. An Ephraimite couple are carried off to Assyria in 730 BC. In Nineveh, where they are slaves, they have a baby. Is this baby "seed of Abraham"? Yes. But in its second year the parents die of a disease. The child grows in the knowledge and wisdom of Assyria. Is it still "seed of Abraham"? Yes. At age 24 this seed of Abraham marries an Assyrian girl and they have a baby. Is this new baby "seed of Abraham"? Well ... men might say, "it is a hybrid as two seeds are necessary - male and female". But scripture knows only a "seed" (singular) in the Law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12.

According to the Law of seeds and kinds in Genesis 1:11-12 the baby born of this couple must be seed of Abraham. How can we be sure? By looking to the Person of Jesus. The "seed" of the woman (Mary) produces a MAN (for which most students of the bible uphold with vehemence). Her seed produced the same "kind". But in the same manner, and subject to the same Law of kinds, Jesus is the product of the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18, Lk.1:35) - and that makes Him God (which most students of the Bible uphold with vehemence). Thus, the baby, who has no clue of its ORIGIN is "seed of Abraham".

And so, countless millions of Israelites from the Assyrian deportation are seed of Abraham - and the only Person Who knows it is God. And when He decrees the day of Ezekiel 37, or Matthew 24:31, He knows who the angels must collect from the "four winds". The problem of who is seed of Abraham is a NON-PROBLEM for God. All that will be required in that day, will be, like Gilgal of old, to circumcise all the males. And so there will be, in that day, some surprised faces - not only yours and mine.

If God made a Covenant with Abraham and his seed, it will be kept perfectly by the One Person of this universe Who can keep it - Jehovah. If He knows where your hair fell today, think of His ability to find every son of Jacob ever produced - whether they know it or not.

Edited February 2, 2022 by AdHoc

[Charlie744]

33 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. I am aware that this is a tricky subject, I am also familiar with your point of view. I think my initial posting gives a view that will require two rather difficult exercises. It needs to be read with the Bible next to it, and it needs courage to admit what is found to be correct and which is not. If a ma has held a system of belief for some years, and he is asked to change, it is difficult for two reasons. (i) The mind is already set and is loath to change, and (ii) the heart wants to dismiss the idea that God allowed that person to go a long time without the truth.

Knowing this from my own experience I will propose a first step. You only have to settle 4 questions honestly (for yourself).

1. Does the wording of Jeremiah 31:31-33 indicate, in any way, that the New Covenant is made with anybody else than Israel?
2. Is there any scripture that makes the Church a party to a Contract to keep the Law
3. If a New Covenant is to be given to the Church, what was the Old one that the Church had?

And then, if you establish that the New Covenant is exclusively for Israel, you must just answer one more question for yourself. Israel is defined as "Paul's brethren according to the flesh" (Rom.9:3-4). Is the Church born according to the flesh or according to the Spirit? If the Church is "brethren" born of the Spirit then Israel and the Church are two different worlds. One is born of human corruptible seed, and the other of an incorruptible Spirit of God. If this be so, then forever, they remain two different kinds. To the Church, God is Father (Jn.1:12-13). And to those who receive the New Covenant their fathers are declared to be in Jeremiah 31:32 to be "fathers" (plural), not Who dwell in heaven, but who needed to be led out of Egypt 8and whose carcasses fell in the wilderness ...

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Whichever way you decide, be decisive. Let your Yay be yay and your nay be nay, even if it leaves you with many unanswered questions. I took ten years to get most of the answers. God gives us time - if we are honest.

God bless you for this response and I will try and have to carve this up in little sections and address them with you-I can tell by the way you conduct yourself this is no problem for you. Please let me consider each part and I will respond - await you reply before moving on the the next section. There will be just too much that I might miss if this is addressed broadly or in a shotgun approach. Charlie

[Charlie744]

35 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

May I refer you to my previous answer on page 6. I think it about sums it up.

God bless

You are referring to the few questions you have just asked me to respond to?

Apparently, there is a concern with the application of the Jeremiah prophecy.  I will respond to your questions and while I am doing that I would ask you to state your interpretation on who his prophecy is speaking to. The House of Israel or the Christian church or both. And then why you believe so..

Thanks, Charlie 
 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Yes, please read what Paul wrote in Romans 7: 15 - 20. He speaks exactly to this issue regarding the NC.. With the LAWS written in our hearts and with the power of the Holy Spirit Paul no longer desires to disobey God’s commandments BUT the flesh is weak and causes him to sin.  Only when we are with Jesus and our flesh is replaced by immortality…. etc., will we no longer have to contend with sin. God will have destroyed both sin and death. 
Charlie

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

THIS is not presently truth.  THE GOOD NEWS words of God, have been being preached for 2000 years so TEACHING HIS NEIGHBOR and brother saying 'know the LORD' has been a REQUIREMENT for the spreading of it. So that PART has not taken place.  And right now our sins are remembered as we have not faced judgment.  

It's like those who say the PROPHECY OF JOEL took place on Pentecost day because of the cloven tongue and it doesn't matter the other parts haven't.  So just as I don't believe Joels has I have the same problem with this.  IF YOU could show me why you believe it all has come to pass I would love to hear it.  To me 'will have' isn't has.



 

 

[DeighAnn]

23 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The problem is just a question of a seed. An Ephraimite couple are carried off to Assyria in 730 BC. In Nineveh, where they are slaves, they have a baby. Is this baby "seed of Abraham"? Yes. But in its second year the parents die of a disease. The child grows in the knowledge and wisdom of Assyria. Is it still "seed of Abraham"? Yes. At age 24 this seed of Abraham marries an Assyrian girl and they have a baby. Is this new baby "seed of Abraham"? Well ... men might say, "it is a hybrid as two seeds are necessary - male and female". But scripture knows only a "seed" (singular) in the Law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12.

According to the Law of seeds and kinds in Genesis 1:11-12 the baby born of this couple must be seed of Abraham. How can we be sure? By looking to the Person of Jesus. The "seed" of the woman (Mary) produces a MAN (for which most students of the bible uphold with vehemence). Her seed produced the same "kind". But in the same manner, and subject to the same Law of kinds, Jesus is the product of the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18, Lk.1:35) - and that makes Him God (which most students of the Bible uphold with vehemence). Thus, the baby, who has no clue of its ORIGIN is "seed of Abraham".

And so, countless millions of Israelites from the Assyrian deportation are seed of Abraham - and the only Person Who knows it is God. And when He decrees the day of Ezekiel 37, or Matthew 24:31, He knows who the angels must collect from the "four winds". The problem of who is seed of Abraham is a NON-PROBLEM for God. All that will be required in that day, will be, like Gilgal of old, to circumcise all the males. And so there will be, in that day, some surprised faces - not only yours and mine.

If God made a Covenant with Abraham and his seed, it will be kept perfectly by the One Person of this universe Who can keep it - Jehovah. If He knows where your hair fell today, think of His ability to find every son of Jacob ever produced - whether they know it or not.

Ishmael, lots of seed of Abraham none of Isaac.  

Thank you, I have to wait on the answers from the other questions as the next questions depend on those and then I will reply to it all together.  Again thank you   d  

[AdHoc]

9 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

You are referring to the few questions you have just asked me to respond to?

Apparently, there is a concern with the application of the Jeremiah prophecy.  I will respond to your questions and while I am doing that I would ask you to state your interpretation on who his prophecy is speaking to. The House of Israel or the Christian church or both. And then why you believe so..

Thanks, Charlie 
 

It may come as a surprise, but the Church was not revealed to the prophets of Old

 Ephesians 3:4-9a; Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,

Col 1:26–27; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Looking back with the New Testament, we can see Types and Shadows a plenty, but the Church per se was not revealed to the prophets. Jeremiah was an Hebrew prophet writing in Hebrew to Hebrews. The text is not disputed. The Hebrew and English are plain. No interpretation is needed. The New Covenant is to be made with Israel - (i) the sons of those who came out of Egypt, and (ii) when the Two Houses of the divided Kingdom are one again.

But, don't rush. Check for yourself.

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Ishmael, lots of seed of Abraham none of Isaac.  

Thank you, I have to wait on the answers from the other questions as the next questions depend on those and then I will reply to it all together.  Again thank you   d  

Clever girl. Keeping me on my toes. Well said. My only defense is that those carried to Assyria where Isaac's seed. But precision is called for - always.

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

THIS is not presently truth.  THE GOOD NEWS words of God, have been being preached for 2000 years so TEACHING HIS NEIGHBOR and brother saying 'know the LORD' has been a REQUIREMENT for the spreading of it. So that PART has not taken place.  And right now our sins are remembered as we have not faced judgment.  

It's like those who say the PROPHECY OF JOEL took place on Pentecost day because of the cloven tongue and it doesn't matter the other parts haven't.  So just as I don't believe Joels has I have the same problem with this.  IF YOU could show me why you believe it all has come to pass I would love to hear it.  To me 'will have' isn't has.



 

 

Thanks DeighAnn.... I certainly wish I had the education, knowledge, experience, exposure and ability in this field necessary to address your questions - I do not. There are more than a few in this forum that definitely have those qualities and more to properly answer your great questions.

Saying that, I can offer my two cents (inflation) and try to respond without you pulling the plug out of the wall and cancelling your internet service.

 

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Above is your question highlighted in bold and mentioning this has yet to be accomplished... 

Well, I think or I believe it certainly has been accomplished at His first coming. The Jeremiah prophecy does tell us that God will no longer allow the Jews to be responsible for introducing, teaching, instructing, etc., just who the One true God is that is also the creator of everything. God had chosen them for such a mission but they too were human and subject to the flesh. They failed miserably but NO OTHER people could have done remotely better... if you want to see how ANY OTHER PEOPLE would have performed just look at how the RCC took over that responsibility (and they were NOT given that responsibility, they assumed or took it for themselves). But getting back to Jeremiah 34, God would never again turn His Word - the teaching, instruction, faith building, etc., to ANY man ever again - instead, He would take ownership of that role Himself. He would 'transfer' the role of the High Priest to Himself and administer His Plan of  Salvation from heaven Man would no longer be a High Priest to another man (See Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:1-6). The teaching of the Torah would also require it to be 'transferred' to God in heaven. God would also change (transfer) the Law which was previously written on the two stone tablets (where no man could obey) to within the heart of man where man will now 'want' to obey. (See Hebrews 8:7-13). The Holy Spirit would be sent to power and counsel man during this sanctification process. This is the New Covenant - SAME LAWS AS THOSE FOUND ON THE STONE TABLETS, BUT NOW WRITTEN IN MAN, NO LONGER EXTERNALLY ON STONE TABLETS (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Remember in Psalm 19:7 God says His LAWS (Torah) are PERFECT. If they are perfect there is NO reason to change them and He did not change them. He changed the way we will be able to obey them...

Specifically, regarding your comment that we still teach each other the Word of God... certainly true.. but why would that stop or cause an issue with the New Covenant where God has placed His Torah in our hearts.... that did not mean He would instantly make us completely aware of knowledgeable to the Torah or the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit did not come to wave a magic wand and give us a thorough understanding of His Word. 

We are, in my opinion NO different than the Jews before the Cross. We are to study and learn and obey His Word and obey His Commandments. This is a lifelong study. This all must continue while we are in the flesh. If we accept the Messiah as our Lord and Savior (before we pass) and obey His commandments, our sins will be forgotten... He has given us His promise on that. That is the New Covenant. Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

34 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It may come as a surprise, but the Church was not revealed to the prophets of Old

 Ephesians 3:4-9a; Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,

Col 1:26–27; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Looking back with the New Testament, we can see Types and Shadows a plenty, but the Church per se was not revealed to the prophets. Jeremiah was an Hebrew prophet writing in Hebrew to Hebrews. The text is not disputed. The Hebrew and English are plain. No interpretation is needed. The New Covenant is to be made with Israel - (i) the sons of those who came out of Egypt, and (ii) when the Two Houses of the divided Kingdom are one again.

But, don't rush. Check for yourself.

I do not disagree with you... the prophecy was made to bring back the divorced House of Israel and to renew Judah who did not completely obey God - God never divorced Judah. This New Covenant would unite both houses again. But through the NC the Gentiles would benefit by being able to receive this New Covenant as well. They, unlike the House of Israel or Judah, were never 'in covenant' with God unless you consider for example those sojourners (if that is the right term ?) that accompanied the Jews in the Exodus. 

But I am still a little confused since that is what I thought I was conveying a few pages ago.... the only question I asked / raised that I was really not sure about is whether the Gentiles were to be considered within the House of Israel BECAUSE they were now completely dispersed among all the Gentile nations and through intermarriage, etc., were / might be considered in the ' nation(s)' definition which I believe (somewhere) I think I read the House of Israel was referred to (after God's divorce) as nation(s) plural. Meaning perhaps the House of Israel, once pure is now included in the 'Nation(s) and when they are brought into the New Covenant it will include Gentiles as well. And I think I had mentioned that one of the reasons that Jacob had blessed Ephraim and not the first born Manasseh was he would represent the Gentiles who were dispersed throughout the world and become part  of the 'nation(s). 

 But whether that was God's intention from the time of Jacob I certainly do not know but regardless, whether the divorced House of Israel represents Israel marrying Gentiles and whoring themselves in idolatry and being brought back within the 'nation(s), or they are brought back in 'pure' and then the Gentiles will benefit from the New Covenant provided to the two Houses.... I do not know... but I would love to learn how the Jewish scholars see this.... but it would have to be a Messianic Jewish Scholar of course since the Gentiles have NO play in their Scriptures.

Now, before I move on .. does this answer your earlier questions that I promised I would respond to? Please let me know and also let me know anything you think regarding the Jacob blessing of Ephraim and the possible connection / inclusion into the New Covenant. Thanks so much. I will await your response before I start on those 3 questions, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The problem is just a question of a seed. An Ephraimite couple are carried off to Assyria in 730 BC. In Nineveh, where they are slaves, they have a baby. Is this baby "seed of Abraham"? Yes. But in its second year the parents die of a disease. The child grows in the knowledge and wisdom of Assyria. Is it still "seed of Abraham"? Yes. At age 24 this seed of Abraham marries an Assyrian girl and they have a baby. Is this new baby "seed of Abraham"? Well ... men might say, "it is a hybrid as two seeds are necessary - male and female". But scripture knows only a "seed" (singular) in the Law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12.

According to the Law of seeds and kinds in Genesis 1:11-12 the baby born of this couple must be seed of Abraham. How can we be sure? By looking to the Person of Jesus. The "seed" of the woman (Mary) produces a MAN (for which most students of the bible uphold with vehemence). Her seed produced the same "kind". But in the same manner, and subject to the same Law of kinds, Jesus is the product of the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18, Lk.1:35) - and that makes Him God (which most students of the Bible uphold with vehemence). Thus, the baby, who has no clue of its ORIGIN is "seed of Abraham".

And so, countless millions of Israelites from the Assyrian deportation are seed of Abraham - and the only Person Who knows it is God. And when He decrees the day of Ezekiel 37, or Matthew 24:31, He knows who the angels must collect from the "four winds". The problem of who is seed of Abraham is a NON-PROBLEM for God. All that will be required in that day, will be, like Gilgal of old, to circumcise all the males. And so there will be, in that day, some surprised faces - not only yours and mine.

If God made a Covenant with Abraham and his seed, it will be kept perfectly by the One Person of this universe Who can keep it - Jehovah. If He knows where your hair fell today, think of His ability to find every son of Jacob ever produced - whether they know it or not.

This is the problem here..... these conversations start to branch out and create some terrific questions and responses where I am completely left in the dark. Not fair....When I see these kinds of back and forth going on which is triggered by the main topic it is quickly and easily way beyond my understanding, knowledge of the Scriptures and I want to learn what you are talking about... 

Anyway, that is my problem - to try and catch up.... but if I may make a comment regarding this particular side issue (since it does connect to the NC), can these questions about the seed(s) of the House of Israel be addressed, not at the 'seed' level if you will, but with  the New Testament? In other words, Jesus came to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. Now Paul was commissioned to go beyond Jerusalem and to the Gentiles - he went to the north and west of the lands speaking to Jews, Greeks and Gentiles in the synagogues, on hills, everywhere about the Messiah and the Torah. Meaning, he was addressing the House of Israel, the Jews living outside Jerusalem and of course all the Gentiles who were interested. God would ensure all three groups would hear the New Covenant. If ANY Jew, Israelite (House of Israel - intermarried with Gentiles or not), and certainly the pagans / Gentiles who never knew the God of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob heard and accepted what Paul was preaching, then they would all have the opportunity to be saved ... or not.  Jeremiah's prophecy clearly tells us the New Covenant was to unite the House of Israel and Judah, but God never told us just how He was going to accomplish it. I don't remember reading His gameplan on that (no mapquest with pincher movements of arrows)... just saying. 

Charlie