The Last trump

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

There appears to be several resurrections as there are several last days.

Hi The Light-

    One of the foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ is the resurrection of the dead as stated in Hebrews 6:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of:

1) Repentance from dead works

2) Faith toward God

3) The Doctrine of Baptisms 

4) Laying on of hands

5) Resurrection of the dead

6) Eternal judgement 

I of course am not saying the resurrection of the dead is the only foundational principle but it is a component of what makes up the foundation. For example it takes water, cement and gravel to make concrete...water alone is not a concrete, cement alone is not concrete, gravel alone is not concrete but when they are all combined they can make a concrete foundation.

But in our discourse concerning the Second Coming, the resurrection of the dead is of utmost importance because the foundational principles dictate what the house must conform to...we don't conform the foundation to the house, the foundation dictates what the house must be....Paul already laid the foundation and we are to take heed how we build on it...so it is not up to us to lay this foundation of the resurrection of the dead, but rather to build upon what is already laid.

 So if the foundation measures out 46' x 74' then the house cannot be 35' x 85'. If we are making walls that are 35' long then we are not building on this foundation. If we are making walls 124' long then we also are not building on this foundation.

So before we go any further in our discussion let us look at every scripture pertaining to the resurrection of the dead...when it happens, to whom it happens to  ect...ect...ect. 

If this doctrine of the resurrection of the dead was truly understood, pre-trib could have never gotten off the ground, neither could mid-trib, neither preterism, neither a-millennial, or many other constructs. 

So bless you much and look forward to discussing this more- Gary

 

[The Light]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hi The Light-

    One of the foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ is the resurrection of the dead as stated in Hebrews 6:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of:

1) Repentance from dead works

2) Faith toward God

3) The Doctrine of Baptisms 

4) Laying on of hands

5) Resurrection of the dead

6) Eternal judgement 

I of course am not saying the resurrection of the dead is the only foundational principle but it is a component of what makes up the foundation. For example it takes water, cement and gravel to make concrete...water alone is not a concrete, cement alone is not concrete, gravel alone is not concrete but when they are all combined they can make a concrete foundation.

But in our discourse concerning the Second Coming, the resurrection of the dead is of utmost importance because the foundational principles dictate what the house must conform to...we don't conform the foundation to the house, the foundation dictates what the house must be....Paul already laid the foundation and we are to take heed how we build on it...so it is not up to us to lay this foundation of the resurrection of the dead, but rather to build upon what is already laid.

 So if the foundation measures out 46' x 74' then the house cannot be 35' x 85'. If we are making walls that are 35' long then we are not building on this foundation. If we are making walls 124' long then we also are not building on this foundation.

So before we go any further in our discussion let us look at every scripture pertaining to the resurrection of the dead...when it happens, to whom it happens to  ect...ect...ect. 

If this doctrine of the resurrection of the dead was truly understood, pre-trib could have never gotten off the ground, neither could mid-trib, neither preterism, neither a-millennial, or many other constructs. 

So bless you much and look forward to discussing this more- Gary

 

Consider this brother. What happens to those that die during the 1000 reign? Are they raised again? How can they be raised on the last day if there is only one last day and it is before they are born? 

Jacob had two brides, Leah and Rachel. His first bride was Leah, but that was not the plan. Just as Jesus first bride will be the mostly Gentile Church. But that was not the plan. I showed you where God saw the fathers as the Jews as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time, but the Jews served Baal-Peor so they would not be the first harvest. God will turn his attention to the Jews when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The 70th week of Daniel is when God deals with the Jews. There is yet a week to go in the plans for the Jews. Even as Jacob had to work 7 more years for his chosen bride Rachel.

I think the real problem we are having is that you think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is when He sets up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet. I think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is His coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation which happens at the 6th seal.

Matt 24

29(((((((((( Immediately after the tribulation))))))))) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 does not occur at Rev 19, it occurs at Rev 6.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

If you think we can gain by looking at resurrection scriptures as a foundation, by all means proceed. Enjoyed reading your posts.

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, The Light said:

What happens to those that die during the 1000 reign? Are they raised again? How can they be raised on the last day if there is only one last day and it is before they are born? 

It seems these ideas are a mish-mash of eronious eschatology.

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Consider this brother. What happens to those that die during the 1000 reign? Are they raised again? How can they be raised on the last day if there is only one last day and it is before they are born? 

Hello - Good to talk with you again....

  Yes the end point of the 1000 years  could be called the last day of that time period...I just wasn't using that exact term because scripture only used the phrase 'last day' to pertain to the Second Coming...but I agree with you that there will be another resurrection of those who die during the 1000 years and it will happen at the end of the 1000 years at the Great White Throne. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

If you think we can gain by looking at resurrection scriptures as a foundation, by all means proceed. Enjoyed reading your posts.

I will just add what I previously posted concerning the resurrection in Dan. 12 and we can go from there...but lets kind of take as long as it takes to get what is being said in these texts and in other places... look at the time frame that is being presented here...almost everyone thinks there will be a resurrection of somebody somehow sometime so its not a question of 'will people be resurrected,' but rather WHEN this resurrection takes place.

The time context at the end of  Dan. 11 is what takes place at the end of the great tribulation...the beast comes to his end (by the brightness of the coming of the Lord in 2 Thess. 2:8) 

Dan.12 further describes this time frame in which:

1) Michael stands up

2) There will be a time of trouble

3) Israel gets delivered

4) Resurrection of both the good and the bad

So Daniel asks the angel in verse 6 "How long shall it be to the END of these wonders?"

Other translations may describe more clearly:

NLT- 'How long will it be until these shocking events are over?"

CSB "How long until the end of these wondrous things?"

NET "When will the end of these wondrous events occur?"

He acknowledges all these things were prophetic events that would occur in the future but he is wondering about when all the things mentioned would be fulfilled...

So he was wondering 'when will this great time of great trouble be over? He was asking when will the deliverance of Israel be fulfilled? When will the resurrection of the the good and bad be fulfilled?

So we must take all the events mentioned, and not just think he was just asking about when the righteous would be resurrected...he was asking when the resurrection of BOTH the wicked and the righteous would be fulfilled. This is what he was asking about when he said 'How long shall it be the end of THESE THINGS?' Not, 'How long shall it be to the end of all these things except the resurrection of the wicked?'

The answer was given to him in verse 7:

"...it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (which is 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months) and when he (the man of sin / beast) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people...(the beast makes war against the saints), ALL THESE THINGS WILL BE FULFILLED.

So lets look at a couple of other translations for this last phrase:

NLT "When the shattering of the holy people has finally come to an end, all these things will have happened."

NIV "When the power of the holy people has  been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

NET "When the power of the one who shatters the holy people has been exhausted, all these things will be finished."

The 3 1/2 years is how long the beast is shown to have power over all nations...he makes war against the saints and prevails against them UNTIL the Ancient of Days comes (Second Coming) ...this is when his reign ends and it is precisely at this point in time that the angel tells Daniel that all the things mentioned will have happened.

So breaking it down...the resurrection of BOTH good and bad will have happened at the end of the 3 1/2 year reign of the beast...note that it does not say the resurrection of the saints will have happened at the end of the reign of the beast, but the resurrection of the wicked will not happen until 1000 years after the reign of the beast...they are BOTH said to be fulfilled at the exact same time...at the end of the reign of the beast...

This again pegs the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked to be at the same time, just as it is in the wheat and tares, just like it is with the good and bad fish and other scriptures.

Blessings to you brother...there is more we will need to discuss about what is said here, but I'm kind of trying to make my posts shorter to make it easier to stay focused. 

 

 

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[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

It seems these ideas are a mish-mash of eronious eschatology.

Hello Justin...Good to meet you ...please feel free to show us any errors you see...iron sharpens iron....:) 

[Justin Adams]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hello Justin...Good to meet you ...please feel free to show us any errors you see...iron sharpens iron....:) 

Try listening to Dr. Heiser's multi-part series on Revelation. That is a very good start.

Get back with me then please.

 

If the site strips the URL try this 

Oh it did already. Look up Dr Heiser's latest Revelation series on YouTube.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Justin Adams
videolinks

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Try listening to Dr. Heiser's multi-part series on Revelation. That is a very good start.

Get back with me then please.

 

If the site strips the URL try this 

No url link came through

[Justin Adams]

Just now, transmogrified said:

No url link came through

Yes. Frustrating. watch?v=Dh53ayRcFac on YouTube. Search for Dr. Heiser, Revelation and watch the latest series.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I will just add what I previously posted concerning the resurrection in Dan. 12 and we can go from there...but lets kind of take as long as it takes to get what is being said in these texts and in other places... look at the time frame that is being presented here...almost everyone thinks there will be a resurrection of somebody somehow sometime so its not a question of 'will people be resurrected,' but rather WHEN this resurrection takes place.

The time context at the end of  Dan. 11 is what takes place at the end of the great tribulation...the beast comes to his end (by the brightness of the coming of the Lord in 2 Thess. 2:8) 

 

•  

This should be interesting as our views are quite different.

I don't see the former King of the North in Daniel 11 as THE Antichrist. I see him as AN Antichrist.

Matthew 24

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I see this Antichrist as the rider on the white horse who is given the stephanos crown, which is the symbol of the UN. I see this as the second beast that gives his power to the first beast, who was and is not and yet is. There are 8 kings and only 6 have happened. It appears to me that this beast dies AND THEN at that time Michael stands up and there is great tribulation.

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Dan.12 further describes this time frame in which:

1) Michael stands up

2) There will be a time of trouble

3) Israel gets delivered

4) Resurrection of both the good and the bad

So Daniel asks the angel in verse 6 "How long shall it be to the END of these wonders?"

To me it seems these events happen after the former king of the north dies.

 

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Other translations may describe more clearly:

NLT- 'How long will it be until these shocking events are over?"

CSB "How long until the end of these wondrous things?"

NET "When will the end of these wondrous events occur?"

He acknowledges all these things were prophetic events that would occur in the future but he is wondering about when all the things mentioned would be fulfilled...

So breaking it down...the resurrection of BOTH good and bad will have happened at the end of the 3 1/2 year reign of the beast...note that it does not say the resurrection of the saints will have happened at the end of the reign of the beast, but the resurrection of the wicked will not happen until 1000 years after the reign of the beast...they are BOTH said to be fulfilled at the exact same time...at the end of the reign of the beast...

This again pegs the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked to be at the same time, just as it is in the wheat and tares, just like it is with the good and bad fish and other scriptures.

Blessings to you brother...there is more we will need to discuss about what is said here, but I'm kind of trying to make my posts shorter to make it easier to stay focused. 

 

And what do you make of this verse

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Why not ALL OF THEM? Why MANY OF THEM?

[transmogrified]

12 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Yes. Frustrating. watch?v=Dh53ayRcFac on YouTube. Search for Dr. Heiser, Revelation and watch the latest series.

So just starting on the link that was sent to me it states he is not going into anything in prophecy, nothing about eschatology...but we are looking at the resurrection and how it pertains to the Second Coming...is there something else where he might be addressing these things?

Thanks-Gary