The Last trump

[transmogrified]

15 minutes ago, The Light said:

To me it seems these events happen after the former king of the north dies.

Focusing on when this resurrection of the good and the bad happens, do you believe the 3.5 year reign of the him that scatters the power of the holy people is the beast that Jesus destroys at the Second Coming?

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

"...it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (which is 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months) and when he (the man of sin / beast) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people...(the beast makes war against the saints), ALL THESE THINGS WILL BE FULFILLED.

In other words is the man described above in Daniel 12 the same man of sin or  son of perdition that Jesus destroys with the brightness of his coming in 2 Thess. 2:8-

"And then shall that wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

[The Light]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Focusing on when this resurrection of the good and the bad happens, do you believe the 3.5 year reign of the him that scatters the power of the holy people is the beast that Jesus destroys at the Second Coming?

Yes

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

In other words is the man described above in Daniel 12 the same man of sin or  son of perdition that Jesus destroys with the brightness of his coming in 2 Thess. 2:8-

"And then shall that wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Do you mean the man in Daniel 11? If you are talking about Daniel 11, no that is not the man that Jesus destroys with the brightness of His coming. If you mean Daniel 12, you would have to quote the verse so I can read it.

[transmogrified]

9 minutes ago, The Light said:

Do you mean the man in Daniel 11? If you are talking about Daniel 11, no that is not the man that Jesus destroys with the brightness of His coming. If you mean Daniel 12, you would have to quote the verse so I can read it.

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when HE shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

It is the "HE" in Daniel 12:7...this is the "HE" that rules for the 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days...ect. 

 

[The Light]

12 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when HE shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

It is the "HE" in Daniel 12:7...this is the "HE" that rules for the 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days...ect. 

 

Yes, that is the man that Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming.

[transmogrified]

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

Yes, that is the man that Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming

Exactly....so what we can positively conclude from this is the time frame...is this also the beast that was taken at the Second coming where it says this in Rev. 19:20?

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[The Light]

10 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Exactly....so what we can positively conclude from this is the time frame...is this also the beast that was taken at the Second coming where it says this in Rev. 19:20?

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Agreed

[transmogrified]

15 minutes ago, The Light said:

25 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Exactly....so what we can positively conclude from this is the time frame...is this also the beast that was taken at the Second coming where it says this in Rev. 19:20?

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Expand  

Agreed

The time frame is concluded that the beast is destroyed at the Second Coming, and that this is the same time frame spoken of in Daniel  12:7 that the events described would all have happened by the end of his reign...the events specified as:

1) Michael stands up

2) The will be a time of trouble

3)Israel will be delivered

4) The resurrection of the good and the bad. 

So connecting the events to the defined time frame,  do you agree that there will be a resurrection of both the good and the bad and it will have happened by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast?

 

[The Light]

3 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The time frame is concluded that the beast is destroyed at the Second Coming, and that this is the same time frame spoken of in Daniel  12:7 that the events described would all have happened by the end of his reign...the events specified as:

1) Michael stands up

2) The will be a time of trouble

3)Israel will be delivered

4) The resurrection of the good and the bad. 

So connecting the events to the defined time frame,  do you agree that there will be a resurrection of both the good and the bad and it will have happened by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast?

 

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

If everyone is raised on the last day, why does it say "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Why aren't all raised?

[transmogrified]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

If everyone is raised on the last day, why does it say "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Why aren't all raised?

 

Here are a couple of other translations of this verse:

NIV-Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Aramaic Bible

And the many who sleep in the dust shall be awakened, these to the life of eternity, and those to loss and to the shame of their companions for eternity

Literal Standard Version

And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground awake, some to continuous life, and some to reproaches—to continuous abhorrence.

Youngs Literal

And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground awake, some to continuous life, and some to reproaches—to continuous abhorrence.

The word 'many' is being used as what is called a synecdoche, which is a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole.

For example when Paul said 'Jesus died for the sins of many..' he did not mean he died for quite a lot of people, but not for everyone. 

Or when he said he gave his life a ransom for many, he did not mean his life was a ransom for some of us, but not for all of us, even though there are other contexts in which the word 'many' does not mean all.

Like when it says 'many false prophets shall arise and deceive many,' it does not mean all people are false prophets or that  all will be deceived.

In one familiar phrase it is said 'a word is known by the company it keeps.'

Romans 5:15 -But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Here again we ask, were there just quite a few of us that were dead in sins, or were we all dead in sins...? of course we all were dead in sins, even though it just said many were dead, and of course his grace is available to all even though it said it had abounded unto many.

The Greek word for 'many' is #4183 and it is never translated 'all' in any text. There is another Greek word for 'all' and it is #3956 but it is never translated 'many'. 

So why didn't he just use the word 'all' when he said he would give his life a ransom for 'many?' Because the word 'many' is describing another aspect of the word that the word 'all' may not be conveying.

In other words, if I said 'I took all the eggs out of the carton...' I would have been saying there were 12 eggs I took, but thats not really very many compared to all the eggs in the world. 

But when scripture says he died for many, and we also know he died for all, it is implying the amount of people he died for is very large. In like manner, when it says 'multitudes that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...' he is meaning the there is a large amount of people who are sleeping in the dust of the earth who will awake, not meaning only part of them will awake and part of them will not.

So how can we be sure a certain word is being used as a synecdoche instead of its normal meaning? We can follow it out to its logical conclusion and see if it works.

So lets say we decide the word 'many' means that Jesus only died for quite a few of us, but not for all of us. We say we are going to stick to the literal meaning of the word and will not budge from it because 'that's what it says and that's what it means.'  Ok. A person can do that but it will lead one into a direct contradiction with what Jesus said in other verses where he unequivocally stated he died for all...such as 1 John 2:2-

"And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world." What happens to the honest person? He is forced to admit the word 'many' can not be understood in its normal meaning but that it is being used as a synecdoche.

So lets get back to Dan. 12:2. How do I know for sure he is using the word 'many' in this sense and not in its normal usage? Just like when we were looking at how to determine whether Jesus was using the normal meaning of the word 'many' or if meant 'all' we have to go to other scriptures to get confirmation.

But first, lets assume he really meant only many would be raised. It does not tell us that the righteous part would be raised and the wicked part would be left, because out of this 'many' that would be resurrected, he said some of them would be unto life, and some of them would be unto condemnation.

This leads us into a huge problem not being addressed in any construct...who is proposing some righteous and some wicked will be resurrected at the second coming? No one. Why? Because we have Jesus saying ALL that believe on me will be raised at the last day...this means there are no righteous person in any grave anywhere at the last day. What does that mean? It means the phrase 'some to life' cannot mean there are still some righteous people who were not resurrected at the last day.

So lets take the 'some to condemnation' phrase and see if it can be understood this way. Who argues that some of the wicked dead will be resurrected at the Last day, but some of them will remain in the grave? No one, but even if they did, we have a scripture that would completely contradict this idea in John 12:47:

"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him; the word that I have spoken to him the same shall judge him in the last day."

Who are they that reject Jesus and do not receive his words? These are the wicked. Just as Jesus described the righteous, he is here describing the wicked. He is not describing part of the wicked, this is a description of a wicked person and it is these people who he said would be judged at the last day. They of course will have to be resurrected before they will be judged, but he specifically said they would be judged on the Last Day, the same Last Day that Jesus said he would resurrect all that believe on him.

So what did we find out in the above discourse? We found out the word 'many' cannot be taken in its normal meaning without directly contradicting the plain meaning of other scriptures.

Just like it is not a sin to say Jesus died for all, even though there are scriptures showing he died for many, it is not a sin to say all that are sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake, and that some of them will be righteous, and some of them will be wicked, even though it uses the word 'many' and not 'all.'

We know there is such a thing as a synecdoche and that it is a figure of speech that is used in both the Hebrew and Greek language. 

Here is an example of how the word 'many' is used in Hebrew as a synecdoche in the same way it was used in the Greek in Isaiah 53:12:

"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The word 'many' in Isaiah 53:12 is the exact same word used for 'many' in Daniel 12:3...it is #7227 in Strongs and means the following:

much, many, great, abundant...

So why doesn't it say 'all'? Because it is being used in this context to show the quantity of the people he bare the sins for was great, while in other contexts the word 'all' is used to show everyone was included and no one was excepted. 

So to give us some more confirmation lets look at another scripture in Paul's writings that shows the wicked will be judged when Jesus comes.

2 Thess. 1 Paul was addressing the saints about the tribulations they were going through because of wicked men persecuting them at that time.

Paul is telling them in verse 6 that it would be a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who were troubling them at that time.

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you:"

He tells them in verse 8 that God would take vengeance on  those that know not God and do not obey the gospel with flaming fire, and that they would be punished with everlasting fire from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power....but then WHEN does he say he will do this?

Verse 10) WHEN HE SHALL COME to be glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe...IN THAT DAY.

So Paul is not telling them these wicked men that were troubling them would be punished 1000 years after Jesus comes, but rather specifically says they will be punished with everlasting fire WHEN HE COMES.

So again, they cannot be punished without first being resurrected and judged so it is apparent they are also resurrected at the Second Coming, or the Last Day, just as it shows in the analogy of the wheat and tares...both are resurrected and judged at the harvest which is the end of this age.

Lule 9:26

1) Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the son of man be ashamed, WHEN HE SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY...." (not 1000 years after he comes in own glory)

Matthew 26:64 

2) "...Hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting on on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (This was spoken to Caiphas who was a wicked man and yet Jesus said he would see him when he comes in the clouds...he cannot see him if he is not resurrected until 1000 years after he comes in the clouds of heaven.)

 Matthew 13:30

3) "Let them both (wheat and tares) grow together UNTIL the harvest...and in the time of harvest  (Not 1000 years after the harvest) the son of man shall send forth his angels and gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them that do iniquity (the wicked) and shall cast them into a furnace of fire...(these are cast into the fire at the same time the righteous are rewarded...at the Second Coming.) 

4) Matthew 13:47-50

"The kingdom of God is like unto a net....gathered of every kind (not just the righteous, but also the wicked) ...when it was full they drew to shore and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away...so shall it be in the end of the age....not at the end of the next age...the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into a furnace of fire....(this is taking place at the Second Coming, not at the end of the 1000 years) 

5)Matthew 25:14-30

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man who traveling into a far country who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods...he gave to one 10, 5, 2, and 1...and after a long time the lord of those servants COMETH (Second Coming, Jesus goes into heaven and after a long time he COMES AGAIN) he gave rewards to all and then he came to the wicked and slothful servant who buried what God had given him...what happened to the wicked servant? He said 'cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (When did he deal with ALL these servants? He dealt with them all WHEN HE CAME...not the righteous at one time and the wicked servant 1000 years later) 

6) 2 Tim. 4:2

   "and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick (living) and the dead AT HIS APPEARING AND KINGDOM...(The 'dead' here is not just the righteous dead, but rather the phrase 'the dead' refers to all those that are in the graves just like John 5:28 stated)

7) John 5:28 -

"The hour comes in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...some to life and some to shame..." (There is not one voice for the righteous at one time and another voice for the wicked at another time....but they all hear the same voice at the same time and come forth)

8) Rev. 1:7

"Behold he cometh with clouds, and EVERY EYE shall see him, even THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM..." (Those that pierced him were wicked and have been dead for hundreds of years...in order for them to see him they will have to be resurrected...not just righteous...this is the Second Coming when he is talking about him coming in the clouds...not at the end of the 1000 years)

Thee are other scriptures, but I am just giving you some other references to assure you that all of the dead, both good and bad are those who will be resurrected in Dan. 12 and at what time...all these scriptures are pointing to the exact same resurrection that takes place at the Second Coming...

As I said, nothing in the above scriptures is to be taken that there is not another resurrection at the end of the 1000 years...these are all pertaining to the righteous and wicked who will be resurrected at the Second Coming...those resurrected at the Great White Throne are a different group of people who live from the time of the Second coming to the end of the 1000 years, both good and bad.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by transmogrified

[Justin Adams]

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So just starting on the link that was sent to me it states he is not going into anything in prophecy, nothing about eschatology...but we are looking at the resurrection and how it pertains to the Second Coming...is there something else where he might be addressing these things?

Thanks-Gary

Oh he does. He cannot help it really as it is so integral to the text. Just observe. Be patient.