The Last trump

[kenny2212]

Quick question - Will absolutely everyone who's a Christian(every person who calls God "Father" - Galatians 4:6) be raptured at the time of the rapture? These Christians contrast "Christians" referred to in Matthew 7:21-23. 

After a thorough study of the parable of the ten virgins, I'm beginning to lean toward the camp saying not all Christians will be raptured at the time of the rapture. Not referring to people who will later become Christians during the tribulation.

PARABLE OF THE TEN VIRGINS

Matthew 25:1-13(NKJV) - 

“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Thanks for reading and God bless. Any questions or comments?

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by kenny2212

[truth7t7]

On 2/27/2022 at 11:03 PM, Da Puppers said:

Let me start by addressing the scriptures that say that both the wicked and the righteous are to be raised "on the last day".  The "last day" refers to the time in which Jesus leaves the Father's side,  (cf Psalm 110) and begins executing "all authority" given to him by the Father,  placing all enemies under his feet.   And when Christ has put down all rule and authority, a thousand years later, he returns the kingdom unto the father... ala the Day of Christ.   The day of Christ is a thousand years long and it's also called the last day.   Eph 1:9,10 says that GOD will gather together all in one,  even IN CHRIST,  in the dispensation of the fulness of times, i.e., the day of Christ.   When Rev 20:4 says that "the rest of the dead" do not rise until after the 1st resurrection,  confirms that not everyone will be resurrected at the "unique" time of the first resurrection(in which you believe ALL will be raised together at the last trumpet). 

The righteous will be raised at the last day,  when Christ begins to reign.  The wicked will also be raised on the last day,  at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ.   So your notion that the wicked and righteous being raised at the same TIME on the "last day" has no support here.   Many of your other scriptural conclusions about both being raised at the same time,  are based upon using this false premise about the last day. 

Let's examine the parables of the tares and the net,  when the angels are sent to separate the wicked from among the just.   In the parable of the tares we see that the "righteous shine like the sun, in the kingdom of their Father", ONLY AFTER the tares are removed.   This shows that the righteous are NOT glorified until after the tares are removed,  i.e., at the same time.   

Looking at Matt 25:31 we see that Jesus comes with the holy angels,   THEN he shall sit upon the throne of his glory.   Not the other way around [He is not given the kingdom,  only then to come in the glory of the Holy angels].  In Dan.  7:13,14 we see that Jesus is given the kingdom in the presence of the Father,  having come in clouds of heaven and glory.   Looking back now at the parable of the tares,  we see that Jesus is already in possession of the kingdom when he sends "his angels" to remove from HIS  kingdom all those that offend and  does iniquity.   This is the essence of the trumpet judgments that culminate in the 7th one when "the dead are judged and reward given to the saints & prophets".  The trumpet judgments are BEFORE the dead are judged.   But it is also AFTER the opening of the sixth seal when Satan is cast out of heaven with the following proclamation: 

Rev 12:10 KJV And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the KINGDOM of our GOD, and the POWER of his CHRIST: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Christ is given the kingdom with the opening of the 6th Seal.   So let us now briefly summarize events... in order! 

1.  Christ leaves heaven. 

2. Christ shouts with his voice (from Jerusalem)  that shakes the heavens and the earth. 

3. The powers of heaven are shaken and Satan is cast down. 

4. Jesus returns to heaven with great glory (the dead in Christ rise with him).

5. The Father gives the kingdom to the Son. 

6. Jesus sends HIS angels to remove from HIS  kingdom those things that offend,  via the 7 trumpet angels. 

7.  The 7th angel sounds,  and the dead are resurrected and given rewards.   [When the Son of man shall come in the glory(praise) of the Father and the angels, THEN (afterward) shall he reward every man according to his works,  Matt 16:27.

In the parables of the tares and of the net,  the gathering of the tares and bad fish takes place BEFORE the event of the resurrection [of ONLY the righteous taking place. ]  Therefore,  the tares and the bad fish are NOT resurrection(s) of the wicked...because they take place after he is given the kingdom and before the dead are judged! 

When Jesus told the high priest (et al) that they would see [both]  Jesus sitting at God's right hand AND him coming with power, this covers an extended period of time.  Lest you forget that the  parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is a pictorial event that takes place before the resurrection, the wicked and the righteous can see each other in the eternal realm.   So you have undulily imposed your unsubstantiated premise that both the wicked and righteous are raised together [at his coming]  upon the words of Jesus,  and therefore have no justification to do so.   The same reasoning applies to the words spoken to the Thessalonians, and all the wicked dead who shall bear witness to Jesus coming TO THE FATHER with power and glory,  [who dwells in the glorious eternal realm.]  Similar shall be true for "those that pierced him".

As a final note,  truly there will be "some raised to everlasting condemnation" at this time (of Jesus's coming)  when Michael stands up.   The scripture notes those who have been raised to everlasting condemnation (resurrected) as the beast and false prophet who are to be cast into the lake of fire at the time of the return of Jesus on the white horse.   The scripture does not mention anyone else being cast into the lake of fire at that time.  But if there are more than two (satisfying the criteria of 'some being raised to everlasting condemnation') they too will be cast into the lake of fire at that time.   If there were numerous wicked others that were raised,  scripture would most likely make mention of such.   I choose to believe the scripture that says the rest of the dead will not participate in the first resurrection, and are equal to all those that do not belong to Christ at his coming.   All those who die after the instituting of the mark of the beast,  has no bearing on the truth of the matter that ALL those that belong to Christ,  [given to him by the Father as a result of their faith in Christ,] TO being raised at the time of Christ's coming... coming to the Father with great glory! 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

No the (Day Of The Lord) isn't 1,000 years long, it represents the (Last Day) that will come quickly as a thief in the night (The End)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

Not referring to people who will later become Christians during the tribulation.

There is no 7-year tribulation. Only a possible very bad time. The dispensational ideas are just there to confuse and delay us from taking the spiritual battle to the enemy right now. When the end comes it will be THE END.

[kenny2212]

14 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

There is no 7-year tribulation. Only a possible very bad time. The dispensational ideas are just there to confuse and delay us from taking the spiritual battle to the enemy right now. When the end comes it will be THE END.

What then did you do with Daniel 9:24-27?

[Justin Adams]

41 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

What then did you do with Daniel 9:24-27?

Read about Revelation and how John uses and requotes much of  Daniel.

Look up Dr Heiser's last series on Revelation. It is well worth watching and learning about.

Ignore Nelson Darby's and Scofield's ideas entirely. Also ignore most of the seminaries that were augmented by the tales of dispensational fictions.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Justin Adams

[kenny2212]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Read about Revelation and how John uses and requotes much of  Daniel.

 

 

There are no direct quotations of the book of Daniel in the book of Revelation.

[Justin Adams]

23 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

There are no direct quotations of the book of Daniel in the book of Revelation.

This is completely wrong. Did you listen to Dr, Heiser? Or just preconcieved ideas? 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Justin Adams

[kenny2212]

16 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

This is completely wrong. Did you listen to Dr, Heiser? Or just preconcieved ideas? 

I want to learn. If there are please just tell me...

[Justin Adams]

Go to YouTube and search for "Heiser, Revelation". There should be a number of lectures about how John used the Tanakh and other prophets in his book called Revelation. This lecture series is recent.

Be blessed as you learn.  

[transmogrified]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

Let me start by addressing the scriptures that say that both the wicked and the righteous are to be raised "on the last day".

Greetings Da Puppers...

Thank you for responding to some of the scriptures that were brought up....

There are two options given as to how we are to understand the day of the Lord...depending on context, it refers to one single day or it refers to the 1000 year period. 

For example, when it says 'We beseech you by the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him,' it is referring to one single day in which the described events take place. In other words, it does not take Jesus 1000 years for the dead in Christ to be resurrected and it does not take 1000 years for those who are alive and remain to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air...

But when it says those that left of all that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the Lord, this is describing an event that does not take place on one single day, but something that happens throughout the entire 1000 year period.

So, yes, if all that was looked at was the scripture that both the righteous and the wicked would be raised on the last day, it could be understood to mean the righteous would be resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years and the wicked would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. 

Likewise, if the righteous are resurrected on the last day, and that day was one single day, it would also not contradict the meaning of the phrase 'the last day' if in fact the wicked were also raised on that same single day...in both settings it would still be the last day.

Seeing that Jesus said both the righteous and the wicked would be raised on the last day we need to confirm with other scriptures to understand what was meant. Was just the righteous resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years, or are both the righteous and the wicked resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years? 

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

The righteous will be raised at the last day,  when Christ begins to reign.  The wicked will also be raised on the last day,  at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ.   So your notion that the wicked and righteous being raised at the same TIME on the "last day" has no support here.

Of course if the righteous were raised at the beginning of the 1000 years and the wicked were were raised at the end of the 1000 years then it could not be said they were raised at the same time. But this is assuming the premise before it has been validated. It would be like the defense asking the prosecution for evidence that Bob Smith robbed the bank, and the prosecution says 'Because Bob Smith robbed the bank, he should go to jail.' This is not providing evidence that Bob Smith robbed the bank, but only stating what he believes.  Saying that the righteous are raised first and the wicked later is not providing evidence that it is true, it is only stating a belief.  

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

 In the parable of the tares we see that the "righteous shine like the sun, in the kingdom of their Father", ONLY AFTER the tares are removed.   This shows that the righteous are NOT glorified until after the tares are removed,  i.e., at the same time.   

Of course if it is true that the tares are resurrected first, then it can not be also said that they are resurrected at the same time as the righteous, but this premise would also invalidate the claim that the righteous are raised first and the tares later. It cannot be true that the tares are resurrected before the righteous and also that the tares are resurrected after the righteous. So the question must be re-examined to see what is meant when he said the tares would be gathered first. Here is what was said:

"Let both grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

They cannot both grow together until the harvest if the tares are resurrected before the wheat. If the tares were resurrected before the wheat it would also invalidate the premise that has been put forth that the wheat must be resurrected before the tares, so what does it mean?

There are two gatherings being spoken of. One  gathering is  the resurrection where all the wicked dead hear his voice and come out of the graves...the other gathering is that after they are resurrected they are gathered into bundles to burn them which would be when the angels supernaturally gather them from all over the world to Jerusalem where they will be judged at the sheep and goat judgment and then cast into the fire. 

Jesus said 'when he comes, then will he sit on the throne of his glory, and all nations shall be gathered before him. The gathering of the tares before Jesus is what was represented by the angels gathering together first the tares into bundles to burn them. But this gathering of the nations before the Lord happened after they were resurrected...so in other words, they are resurrected at the same time as the righteous, but they are gathered first into bundles to be burned. The bundles represent the different nations. So it would be like all the wicked dead from China would be in one bundle, all those from Japan would be in another bundle, but they are gathered together into bundles here to be later burned after they are judged by the Lord.

So why does it say they are gathered first? Harking back to what Jesus told Caiphas that he would see Jesus coming in the clouds. Of course when he said this to Caiphas, it is acknowledged that every eye will see him even those who pierced him, so Caiphas would not be the only tare that was resurrected...all the tares were resurrected at the same time so they would all be there seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. This is why John said 'He Cometh with clouds, and every shall see him' he is not talking about an event that happens at the end of the 1000 years, but rather at the Second Coming.

But consider what he said that Caiphas would see him coming in the clouds. Who is coming? Jesus and all the saints are coming. And when I say he sees Jesus coming with the saints, it should be acknowledged that he  is coming down from heaven to the earth. So when Jesus comes and sits upon the throne, this is a throne that is on the earth.

It says all the nations will be gathered before him, but although all the nations will be gathered before him, the tares were gathered first before the righteous had arrived, as it says, he will see Jesus coming and all the saints are with him, so he (the tares) had already been gathered before they arrived.

Both the sheep and the goats are all called nations, and they both are before the throne, and Jesus separates them one from the other, the only difference was that the tares were gathered before the wheat arrived.

If it is believed that the gathering of the tares into bundles is the resurrection,  it cannot be maintained  that they would also be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. They cannot both be resurrected first and also be resurrected later.

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

Looking at Matt 25:31 we see that Jesus comes with the holy angels,   THEN he shall sit upon the throne of his glory. 

Yes indeed I agree.

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

In the parables of the tares and of the net,  the gathering of the tares and bad fish takes place BEFORE the event of the resurrection

Both the wheat and the tares are resurrected and rewarded at the end of the age which is the harvest. They are not gathered before the resurrection for it states they both grow together until the harvest. The harvest is the resurrection of both the wheat and the tares...the harvest is the end of the age...the harvest is the gathering at the Second Coming, the righteous are both resurrected, judged and rewarded at the second coming, the same time the tares are resurrected, judged and rewarded. The gathering is the resurrection, so it cannot be said they will be gathered (resurrected) before they are gathered (resurrected) 

 

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

When Jesus told the high priest (et al) that they would see [both]  Jesus sitting at God's right hand AND him coming with power, this covers an extended period of time. 

The time period it covers is when Caiphas literally sees Jesus coming in the clouds, along with all those who pierced him, along with every eye,  on the (single) day called the Day of the Lord, or the Last day. It does not take Jesus 1000 years to come....Jesus does not say he will see this at the end of the 1000 years, he says he will see him coming...Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years so he could not see him coming when he is not coming. 

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

Lest you forget that the  parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is a pictorial event that takes place before the resurrection, the wicked and the righteous can see each other in the eternal realm. 

Even if the parable was taken literally, the rich man and Lazarus were talking about events that they had actually been involved with. When he said  'remember that in thy lifetime the rich man received good things and Lazarus evil things' he was not telling them to remember events they had  never gone through.
Lets say Caiphas died and was not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. He could not look back and remember seeing Jesus coming in the clouds, for he had died thousands of years before the event took place. 

On 2/28/2022 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

As a final note,  truly there will be "some raised to everlasting condemnation" at this time (of Jesus's coming)  when Michael stands up.   The scripture notes those who have been raised to everlasting condemnation (resurrected) as the beast and false prophet who are to be cast into the lake of fire at the time of the return of Jesus on the white horse. 

The beast and the false prophet are not resurrected at the time Jesus returns on the white horse...this is when they were killed and cast into the bottomless pit, but they will be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. The reason they will not be resurrected at the Second Coming is because the resurrection of the wicked dead had already occurred before Jesus arrived on the earth...as he said to Caiphas, (a wicked man) that  'he would see him coming in the clouds..'

These would be part of the rest of the dead that would not live again until the 1000 years were finished...

Blessings to you...much more to go over

Edited March 2, 2022 by transmogrified
correction in response to rich man and Lazarus comment