The PRIZE of the Upward Call

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I see you are a deep thinker and have studied for many years. I have also as you noted and have been taught what I know from godly teachers from last century. So it is not from my imagination or my own study that I have learnt. Obviously I do have to have studied and checked out what I have been taught. I have also been a teacher so study is enjoyable. I have appreciated out discussion and enjoyed a lot of what you write.

I see `resurrections` as Jesus said - one for life and the other condemnation. (John 5: 29) Plus the Body of Christ is NOT in the grave but in the General Assembly. (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

Finally I do agree that there are `different glories` as you say. 

1. On top calling - kingpriests in the third heaven, angelic realm. (Rev. 1: 6,  3: 21)

2. Kings and priest in the New Jerusalem further down in the Universal area. (Matt. 19: 28,  Rev. 21: 14,  Rev. 7: 4, 14: 1 - 5,  21: 17)

3. Kings and priests on the earth. (Rev. 21: 24,  Ex. 19: 6)

I am familiar with some of your arguments. You too present yourself an astute student of scripture. But unlike many others, you have a gentle spirit. We sure can profit from our discussions. In my young days, I often wondered why the Lord led me on the paths he did. I seem to have wasted the first thirty years of my life. But later I saw His wisdom. He let me experience the incorrect so that when I was given light, I would never forget the wrong. I'm still in this process today. For ten years after my conversion I wrestled with the idea of "going to heaven". It was deeply ingrained in me. But I found no direct statements saying this. Every scripture that my esteemed brethren would produce did NOT have any plain statement as to this doctrine. I think that it is reasonable to expect plain language for so great a doctrine. But where are they?

"Captivity led captive"? Why .... that means the opposite. The captives stay in the same place (Captivity) but the one who has them captive has changed. If it meant "go to heaven" would it not read "Captivity led to freedom"??? "To be with the Lord after death"? Why ..... sure, for you are with the Lord now and that relationship is regulated NOT by bodily proximity (2nd Cor.51-3, 16), but by SOUL and His Spirit (Jn.4:24). Nothing in that relationship changes in death and you find our Lord in Hades (Ps.139:8). At least I hope this as, 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension, David was still in Hades (Act.2:29, 34).

Resurrection, in EVERY case, has the dead RISING. Men, in EVERY case, only go to heaven BODILY and alive (Enoch, Elijah and Jesus). Resurrection for us is "when He COMES" (1st Cor.15:23, 1st Thess.4:14) and scripture says again that the DEAD RISE. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 tells us of a sequence; First the dead RISE and then TOGETHER with the living they are caught away to the air - AT HIS COMING.

Scripture after scripture points to the dead in Christ resting and comforted in Hades after death - Abraham, the father of the faithful and David the king who did everything the Lord commanded except in the matter of Uriah's wife are there.

I propose that if a detective was to gather evidence what would he find? Hades for the dead and resurrection of the Body at Christ's coming. Or would we find the naked and unclean (2nd Cor.5:1-5) in God's presence? An impartial detective would never conclude that dead men, naked without their bodies, and unclean to touch, would be ushered into heaven.

Well... just thinking.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Your argument, at first seems a good one. In multiple statements the angels are mentioned, and in Revelation 15:6 angels are clothed in white linen. But this not decisive because of other unequivocal statements. The first one is Genesis 1:26-28 were MAN is given to SUBDUE the earth "and all that is in them" including that which flies and that which creeps. The second one is concerning the Lord's coming. Enoch reported, and Jude 14 records it, that the Lord would come with His SAINTS. This is confirmed by 1st Thessalonians 4:14. And then in Revelation 19 we have to decide on the evidence who they are on white horses in white garments. Daniel 7:18 gives the answer. 

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The "saints" TAKE the Kingdom. That they are not angels is that they POSSESS the Kingdom. This is not given to angels (Heb.2:5 - "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.")

The Lord is called the "Lord of HOSTS (plural)", but the angels are called the "host" of heaven (e.g. 1st Ki.22:19). In Revelation 19 it is "ARMIES" plural. This indicates that the Lord commanded more than one army - (i) angels, and (ii) saints with white linen

The logic of the matter also speaks of BOTH. Three and a half years before, Satan and one third of angels, called "his angels", are cast to earth. Satan's armies consist then of MEN under the Beast and angels under him. So too the Lord's armies (plural). Men and angels under Christ.

 

So let`s look a bit closer at your scriptures for I knew they had to be discussed as I only quickly referred to them.

Jude 14, `Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam prophesied about these men also, saying "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His `hagios." 

Greek - Hagios,  meaning sacred, pure holy one.  And that can be angels or saints. Thus we need more information.

Hebrew - Quodos.

`The Lord came from Sinai, and dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, and came with ten thousands of  HOLY ONES,`quodos,`  literally myriads of holiness. `  (Deut. 33: 2)

Ps. 68 tells us who these Holy Ones are -

`The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands; the Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy place.` (Ps. 68: 17)

Thus we see that Enoch was referring to God`s myriads of holy angels.  

Hebrew - Quodos.

`Behold the Day of the Lord is coming……..Thus the Lord will come and all the Holy Ones  (Quodos) with Him.` (Zech. 14:  5)

 

Now 1 Thess. 4: 14 refers to the saints who are asleep in the Lord and will come with Him to gather all His Body. It is the `appearing` of the Lord and us appearing with Him in glory. (1 John 3: 2) It is NOT the time of the Lord bringing vengeance upon His enemies. 

 

Dan. 7: 18 refers to the saints of Israel. Remember that the revelation of the Body of Christ saints was NOT revealed until given to the Apostle Paul.

 

Finally we, the Body of Christ are NOT to fight `flesh and blood.` 

`For we do NOT wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

We will actually judge the world system and fallen angels, from the Lord`s own throne in the highest. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I'm afraid the name Emanuel is given to the MAN Jesus - SON of a WOMAN (Matt.1:23), not the Spirit

David will truly be resurrected and placed as king over Israel. So also will the twelve Apostles. The Lord promised overcomers that they would sit in His throne AS He sat in His Father's. Is it such a strange thought that our Lord Jesus will have STRUCTURE to His government? After all, He created principalities (plural). This is seen again in Revelation 20:4-6 and Luke 19:17-19.

David could not have sons. He is in resurrection (Lk.20:35-36).

Our Lord Jesus WILL be surrounded by evil components. The Covenant of Noah is in force with the death penalty for murder. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron, which will end in the suffering and even death of criminals. Satan, when loosed after 1,000 years of His reign, will stir rebellion and the march on Jerusalem by Magog will result in a bloodbath pure. The thousand years is for "SUBDUING" God's enemies (1st Cor.15:23-28). Our Lord will not only rule with a rod of iron, but will "DASH" the Nations (Ps.2:9).

Our "blessed hope" is the appearing of Jesus to change the government on earth (Tit.2:13), not some imagined utopia.

Yes Emmanuel is one of the Lord`s titles. However we cannot separate Him into - this is man and this is God. 

The man called David, who will rule in the millennium will have sons. 

`Thus says the Lord God: "If the Prince gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons, it is their possession by inheritance.` (Ez. 46: 16)

Remember that King David of old is looking for the city, the New Jerusalem as his inheritance. (Heb. 11: 32,  16)

To imagine that the Lord is ON the earth with pain, suffering, sickness, disease, death, and even sacrifices, is a nonsense. It makes the cross of null and void. The millennium is the promised rule of the Lord through Israel over the nations. Mankind will have the opportunity to be ruled under God without the interference of Satan and his fallen angels. It will clearly show that God is righteous and has given man every opportunity to live right. However we see by the final rebellion, that man`s sinful nature still desires rebellion against God.

Thus the Great White Throne.

[Marilyn C]

57 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I am familiar with some of your arguments. You too present yourself an astute student of scripture. But unlike many others, you have a gentle spirit. We sure can profit from our discussions. In my young days, I often wondered why the Lord led me on the paths he did. I seem to have wasted the first thirty years of my life. But later I saw His wisdom. He let me experience the incorrect so that when I was given light, I would never forget the wrong. I'm still in this process today. For ten years after my conversion I wrestled with the idea of "going to heaven". It was deeply ingrained in me. But I found no direct statements saying this. Every scripture that my esteemed brethren would produce did NOT have any plain statement as to this doctrine. I think that it is reasonable to expect plain language for so great a doctrine. But where are they?

"Captivity led captive"? Why .... that means the opposite. The captives stay in the same place (Captivity) but the one who has them captive has changed. If it meant "go to heaven" would it not read "Captivity led to freedom"??? "To be with the Lord after death"? Why ..... sure, for you are with the Lord now and that relationship is regulated NOT by bodily proximity (2nd Cor.51-3, 16), but by SOUL and His Spirit (Jn.4:24). Nothing in that relationship changes in death and you find our Lord in Hades (Ps.139:8). At least I hope this as, 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension, David was still in Hades (Act.2:29, 34).

Resurrection, in EVERY case, has the dead RISING. Men, in EVERY case, only go to heaven BODILY and alive (Enoch, Elijah and Jesus). Resurrection for us is "when He COMES" (1st Cor.15:23, 1st Thess.4:14) and scripture says again that the DEAD RISE. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 tells us of a sequence; First the dead RISE and then TOGETHER with the living they are caught away to the air - AT HIS COMING.

Scripture after scripture points to the dead in Christ resting and comforted in Hades after death - Abraham, the father of the faithful and David the king who did everything the Lord commanded except in the matter of Uriah's wife are there.

I propose that if a detective was to gather evidence what would he find? Hades for the dead and resurrection of the Body at Christ's coming. Or would we find the naked and unclean (2nd Cor.5:1-5) in God's presence? An impartial detective would never conclude that dead men, naked without their bodies, and unclean to touch, would be ushered into heaven.

Well... just thinking.

 

I do feel for you not being able to receive the great revelation of our glorious inheritance with the Lord in heaven. 

Acts 2: 29 was referring to King David`s statement when he was on earth and would go to the grave. Also David prophesied in many Psalms referring to the Lord - future. 

Then when the Lord arose and took the OT saints to glory we see them there in the general Assembly, waiting for their inheritance of the city.

`But you have come to ....the General assembly ....to the spirits of just men made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

`God has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

Abraham and David and the prophets and Rahab etc are all in the General Assembly. (Heb. 11: 8, 31 & 32,    12: 23) 

 

[Dennis1209]

On 2/18/2022 at 8:00 AM, AdHoc said:

It is proposed by contemporary Christianity that the resurrection and rapture, whether before, or after the Great Tribulation, is a single event in which all the Church is raised and raptured. For this 1st Thessalonians 4 is produced as proof. No mention of anything special is found there. But the absence of indications is not proof, just as the absence of an alibi on the day of a crime is not proof of guilt. Rather, the resurrection and rapture are shown by scripture to be individually timed. Enoch was raptured millennia before Elijah, and he, some 700 years before Christ.Then we have the two witnesses of Revelation 11 having a dedicated rapture. Finally, Matthew 13 declares the end of the age an harvest and the reapers angels. Leviticus 23 shows THREE distinct gatherings in one harvest - first fruits, general harvest and gleanings.

Wow, there is so much that can be discussed and dissected in your thread, I just picked one sidebar to discuss and comment on, “the first and second Raptures and Resurrections.”

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first Resurrection seems to be a series, Jesus being the First Fruits. There will be the general Rapture-Resurrection of the Church, followed by a set of martyred saints before the Tribulation saints, the Tribulation saints, the 144,000, the Two Witnesses, and the Old Testament saints directly after the end of the Tribulation. The way I understand it anyway.

You mention Enoch and Elijah, which I believe are types and a shadow of things to come. I believe Enoch is symbolic of the true church, he pleased God and was taken “from” not through the coming global judgment. I suspect Elijah will be one of the Two Witnesses based on several things I have detailed before. I suspect Moses will be the second Witness for the same reasoning. If this turns out to be true, Moses will have physically died twice.

If the Two witnesses turn out to be Enoch and Elijah, it clears up Hebrews 9:27.

I do have a question: Where does one put the people Jesus and the apostles bodily resurrected from the dead? Were they Raptured after everyone witnessed them alive again, or did they have to die a second physical death? If memory serves, Lazarus was seen or mentioned in scripture well after he was raised from the dead?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It appears the “Second Resurrection” is a one-time event, the bodily Resurrection of all the lost souls of all time at the Great White Throne judgment. This judgment is the second death.

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So let`s look a bit closer at your scriptures for I knew they had to be discussed as I only quickly referred to them.

Jude 14, `Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam prophesied about these men also, saying "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His `hagios." 

Greek - Hagios,  meaning sacred, pure holy one.  And that can be angels or saints. Thus we need more information.

Hebrew - Quodos.

`The Lord came from Sinai, and dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, and came with ten thousands of  HOLY ONES,`quodos,`  literally myriads of holiness. `  (Deut. 33: 2)

Ps. 68 tells us who these Holy Ones are -

`The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands; the Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy place.` (Ps. 68: 17)

Thus we see that Enoch was referring to God`s myriads of holy angels.  

Hebrew - Quodos.

`Behold the Day of the Lord is coming……..Thus the Lord will come and all the Holy Ones  (Quodos) with Him.` (Zech. 14:  5)

 

Now 1 Thess. 4: 14 refers to the saints who are asleep in the Lord and will come with Him to gather all His Body. It is the `appearing` of the Lord and us appearing with Him in glory. (1 John 3: 2) It is NOT the time of the Lord bringing vengeance upon His enemies. 

 

Dan. 7: 18 refers to the saints of Israel. Remember that the revelation of the Body of Christ saints was NOT revealed until given to the Apostle Paul.

 

Finally we, the Body of Christ are NOT to fight `flesh and blood.` 

`For we do NOT wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

We will actually judge the world system and fallen angels, from the Lord`s own throne in the highest. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) 

I am astounded that you take "saints" in Deuteronomy 33:2 to be angels. The whole context is Israel. Verse 1 says that what followed is a "blessing on the children of Israel". Since when are angels given a "fiery law"? You have inserted "angels" when Israel was specifically called to be a "holy nation".

You have not read 1st Thessalonians 4:14 correctly. Your rendering creates a contradiction. You make the dead in Christ come with Him to gather the dead in Christ. The reason for Paul's discourse is that the Thessalonian saints thought that those saints who had died would miss the Rapture. Thus they "sorrowed" (v.13). Paul then sets forth HOW the dead in Christ will be with Him when He comes. By resurrection to the surface of the earth to meet up with the LIVING and then TOGETHER be caught up. With this information that the dead in Christ will suffer no loss, the saints at Thessaloniki would be "comforted".

Paul had, in his three weeks with the Thessalonians, taught the rapture. The rapture is ONLY for the LIVING. So the question arises, if the Lord is predicted to come WITH His saints, how could the dead be with them? The answer is that the dead in Christ will FIRST be made alive by resurrection, and then TOGETHER with the LIVING, be caught up. That s, the source of sorrow is eliminated. The dead in Christ, still in Hades until Christ COMES (1st Cor.15:23), will suffer no disadvantage. With this should all saints be comforted.

The command that we fight not against flesh and blood is ONLY for the age of grace. Israel fought against flesh and blood before this age. Once that age is closed the saints form an ARMY for Armageddon. And the battle of Armageddon involves Him who sat upon a white horse AND HIS ARMY (Rev.19:19).

Edited February 20, 2022 by AdHoc
Format

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes Emmanuel is one of the Lord`s titles. However we cannot separate Him into - this is man and this is God

You had better think about this. If there is no distinct separation then God died on the cross. Shiver.

 

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

To imagine that the Lord is ON the earth with pain, suffering, sickness, disease, death, and even sacrifices, is a nonsense. It makes the cross of null and void. The millennium is the promised rule of the Lord through Israel over the nations. Mankind will have the opportunity to be ruled under God without the interference of Satan and his fallen angels. It will clearly show that God is righteous and has given man every opportunity to live right. However we see by the final rebellion, that man`s sinful nature still desires rebellion against God.

"Nonsense .... "? I think not. In Luke 22:7 we see what Passover entails under Law. It must be "killed". In verse 16 our Lord refuses this ritual of Law even until now. But a day comes - a thousand years long, where He will eat the Passover. The sacrifices are a large part of the closing part of Ezekiel which you used to show David reigning in Millennial glory. The reason is evident but not part of our conversation. The sacrifices form a large part of the Law of Moses and the Law is part of the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33). The Law, with its sacrifices will not pass till the White Throne. It is to abide UNTIL "heaven and earth pass".

After reading Genesis 6:5 and Romans Chapter 7, how can you think that the Nations suddenly lose their Adamic nature? What sudden miracle will change the nature of the infidel in the Millennium? The absence of Satan? Where is Satan in Genesis 6:5? For what is the rule of the rod of iron in the Millennium? But I think I have your answer already. You could not give a scripture for the above paragraph. But I will ask you, in Hebrews 6, the Lord threatens believers. And in the threat, in verse 5, the Hebrews (river crossers) were made partakers of the Holy Spirit. And this Holy Spirit is the One given at Pentecost for we read of its "POWERS" (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). And the POWER of the Holy Spirit was "signs and wonders" by the Apostles. That is, healing, raising the dead, and having power over demons. But this verse in Hebrews 6 says that all these signs are only a FORETASTE of what we will do in the age to come. In your Utopia then, what shall the manifold powers of the Holy Spirit be when all are meek and timid and sinless? Satan is locked up below, but what about his angels? And what about demons?

My esteemed sister, you have to scrub these illusions from your head and face the fact that after our resurrection in 1st Corinthians 15:23, we, and the Lord, have the job of SUBDUING GOD'S ENEMIES - which ends in a bloodbath at Hamon Gog. If you want Utopia, forget it. Even on the New Earth Isaiah 66:24 says we will look upon "carcasses" in the Lake of Fire. "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name  (Re 14:11). Utopia ... NO, "Righteousness, Peace and Joy" ... YES.

[Alive]

The Word, Jesus Christ the Son, the Creator of all things is the Lamb 'SLAIN' from the foundation of the world.

How that works, is still a mystery to us--but that is what we know for sure. Some things are best left silent when scripture is silent.

Perhaps this is one of those....perhaps.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Wow, there is so much that can be discussed and dissected in your thread, I just picked one sidebar to discuss and comment on, “the first and second Raptures and Resurrections.”

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first Resurrection seems to be a series, Jesus being the First Fruits. There will be the general Rapture-Resurrection of the Church, followed by a set of martyred saints before the Tribulation saints, the Tribulation saints, the 144,000, the Two Witnesses, and the Old Testament saints directly after the end of the Tribulation. The way I understand it anyway.

You mention Enoch and Elijah, which I believe are types and a shadow of things to come. I believe Enoch is symbolic of the true church, he pleased God and was taken “from” not through the coming global judgment. I suspect Elijah will be one of the Two Witnesses based on several things I have detailed before. I suspect Moses will be the second Witness for the same reasoning. If this turns out to be true, Moses will have physically died twice.

If the Two witnesses turn out to be Enoch and Elijah, it clears up Hebrews 9:27.

I do have a question: Where does one put the people Jesus and the apostles bodily resurrected from the dead? Were they Raptured after everyone witnessed them alive again, or did they have to die a second physical death? If memory serves, Lazarus was seen or mentioned in scripture well after he was raised from the dead?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It appears the “Second Resurrection” is a one-time event, the bodily Resurrection of all the lost souls of all time at the Great White Throne judgment. This judgment is the second death.

The matter of resurrection is not too complicated. The Greek word for "First" can mean; (i) "first" in time, or (ii) "first" in rank or importance. The meaning in Revelation 20 is "first" in IMPORTANCE. It is a resurrection that the Lord deems a REWARD. Remember, all men will be resurrected (Jn.5:28, 1st Cor.15:22). Christians are resurrected when Christ returns (1st Cor.15:23). But within this resurrection, some will have more honor than others. This called the "first" (in importance) resurrection. Those who ATTAINED to this resurrection (i) enter the wedding feast, ad (ii) rule as co-kings with Christ in the Millennium (see Matthew 25:1-30).

Enoch and Elijah are said by scripture to have avoided death and been caught away to heaven. The 144,000 in Revelation 14 are in heaven. Christ, resurrected and bodily sitting in the Father's throne, is in heaven. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are caught away to heaven. It seems logical to me that all the rest of the resurrected are in heaven. Hebrews 9:27 precludes any talk of another death.

In the Transfiguration, Moses was a very important figure for two reasons. (i) The first is that he was to represent the dead and risen and raptured faithful. Elijah in contrast represents the living and raptured. (ii) Moses was prepared by God for 80 years for his important work. He then serves God faithfully under extreme conditions for another 40 years. He makes one awful mistake and is DISINHERITED by God. He may not inherit the Good Land. If the story ended there, many of us would give up. God needed to show us men that though we fail, and fail badly, and be heavily chastised, we can still INHERIT the Kingdom.

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, Alive said:

The Word, Jesus Christ the Son, the Creator of all things is the Lamb 'SLAIN' from the foundation of the world.

How that works, is still a mystery to us--but that is what we know for sure. Some things are best left silent when scripture is silent.

Perhaps this is one of those....perhaps.

I hear you brother. WE will quickly reach the borders of our intellect and then mischief will start. Let us bow our heads and say that it is the "mystery of Christ".