The Blood of Bulls and Goats.......

[Alive]

As I think I mentioned a week or two ago, my wife and I have been listening to scripture together per Omega's Bible Reading club. We find it best for us to listen to the entire week's worth at a sitting and discuss as we go as questions may arise, or I get a thought I want to express.

We just wrapped up Numbers and started on Deut. and then Mark looking at Jesus' last day to the Cross.

Anyway, we have really enjoyed seeing all the OT expressing Christ in such detail, so we were discussing all of the sacrificed critters and other offerings that God instituted and how when the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in rebellion, those things made a fellowship with and the blessings of God--possible.

I quoted Heb. 10.4 to my wife.

Heb. 10:4 (NAS20S) For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Then I asked her if that is true, as it surely is, then how is it that all that blood worked? I then asked her; since it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, by what mechanism or means could Israel be in a right relationship with God and be blessed when they were loyal?

She knew the answer because of course she has listened to me go on before.

:-)

Grace! The only means by which God has dealt with mankind from his creation till now and forever.

All of that pointing to Christ. The Solution.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away, to wipe out a single sin...or if you will...law.

What say you?

Edited March 20, 2022 by Alive
typo

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away, to wipe out a single sin...or if you will...law.

What say you?

Looking forward-+-looking back.   Substitutionary.  A temporary covering of sins and to foreshadow the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Leviticus 4:35, 5:10).
My understanding...

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

As I think I mentioned a week or two ago, my wife and I have been listening to scripture together per Omega's Bible Reading club. We find it best for us to listen to the entire week's worth at a sitting and discuss as we go as questions may arise, or I get a thought I want to express.

We just wrapped up Numbers and started on Deut. and then Mark looking at Jesus' last day to the Cross.

Anyway, we have really enjoyed seeing all the OT expressing Christ in such detail, so we were discussing all of the sacrificed critters and other offerings that God instituted and how when the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in rebellion, those things made a fellowship with and the blessings of God--possible.

I quoted Heb. 10.4 to my wife.

Heb. 10:4 (NAS20S) For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Then I asked her if that is true, as it surely is, then how is it that all that blood worked? I then asked her; since it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, by what mechanism or means could Israel be in a right relationship with God and be blessed when they were loyal?

She knew the answer because of course she has listened to me go on before.

:-)

Grace! The only means by which God has dealt with mankind from his creation till now and forever.

All of that pointing to Christ. The Solution.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away, to wipe out a single sin...or if you will...law.

What say you?

The sacrifices of old made "atonement" for trespasses. The word in Hebrew first appears in Genesis Chapter 6 where Noah was to "COVER" the ark with pitch - inside and outside. The pitch covered the gopher wood but the wood was still there. The basic problem (if it can be called that) is that God is 100% righteous. Not 99.99% and not 101%. Exactly 100%. So, when a creature offends, God MUST, and WILL, exact retribution EXACTLY commensurate with the offense. "An eye for an eye and a life for a life". And it must be a man for men - not a sheep or bull. Adam and Eve cause the shedding of blood and are covered to God's satisfaction, but they are still fallen Adam and Eve and though they be covered they may not touch the Tree of Life ad are driven from it. The sacrifices covered but did not remove.

But if God is to exact commensurate retribution an man can die for his sins but then he is useless for God's intended purpose. So, for no other reason that God's unbending righteousness, a Man who was qualified to die for other men's sins had to be found. You and I can die for our sins but we cannot die for another's sins. Our death is only enough for our own burden of offense. So, until this qualified Man was found and presented, God could only "cover", but not remove sins. The process of paying the correct price for a debt is called "redemption". Both are addressed in Hebrews 9:1–14

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

God gave Israel they Law for three reasons. The first is so that Israel was ritually clean enough to have the most HOLY God dwelling WITH them without offending His holiness. The second was that Israel was to enforce God's morality, among themselves and as a testimony before the heathen around them. The third was that God would be honored and given His due, man would be honored and given his due and that the Land would be honored and given its due. The passage above concerns mainly the first reason. And it is at once clear that the blood of bulls and goats could "cover" sins to avoid the death of all concerned, but the sin was still there. How do we know? Because the CONSCIENCE was still burdened. The solution of animal sacrifices was "IMPERFECT" because it did not UNBURDEN the criminal. It saved his life but his conscience was not purged.

And because the sins remained, albeit hidden, man could not approach Jehovah. He (Jehovah) lived behind a veil that was deadly. The High Priest could go in once a year with special sacrifices, special washings and special clothing, but he was always in danger. It is one thing to offend God, but it is another thing totally to touch His holiness. David was spared after Bathsheba, but Uzzah was killed on the spot for touching the Ark. Until Christ died and fulfilled God's holy and righteous nature, sins were covered - but God's People had NO ACCESS to Him. Once the qualified Man Jesus died for our sins and the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2), they way to the Father was opened - and opened so wide that He could now come to dwell IN US based on Christ's REDEMPTION.

Edited March 20, 2022 by AdHoc
grammar

[Alive]

23 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The sacrifices of old made "atonement" for trespasses. The word in Hebrew first appears in Genesis Chapter 6 where Noah was to "COVER" the ark with pitch - inside and outside. The pitch covered the gopher wood but the wood was still there. The basic problem (if it can be called that) is that God is 100% righteous. Not 99.99% and not 101%. Exactly 100%. So, when a creature offends, God MUST, and WILL, exact retribution EXACTLY commensurate with the offense. "An eye for an eye and a life for a life". And it must be a man for men - not a sheep or bull. Adam and Eve cause the shedding of blood and are covered to God's satisfaction, but they are still fallen Adam and Eve and though they be covered they may not touch the Tree of Life ad are driven from it. The sacrifices covered but did not remove.

But if God is to exact commensurate retribution an man can die for his sins but then he is useless for God's intended purpose. So, for no other reason that God's unbending righteousness, a Man who was qualified to die for other men's sins had to be found. You and I can die for our sins but we cannot die for another's sins. Our death is only enough for our own burden of offense. So, until this qualified Man was found and presented, God could only "cover", but not remove sins. The process of paying the correct price for a debt is called "redemption". Both are addressed in Hebrews 9:1–14

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

God gave Israel they Law for three reasons. The first is so that Israel was ritually clean enough to have the most HOLY God dwelling WITH them without offending His holiness. The second was that Israel was to enforce God's morality, among themselves and as a testimony before the heathen around them. The third was that God would be honored and given His due, man would be honored and given his due and that the Land would be honored and given its due. The passage above concerns mainly the first reason. And it is at once clear that the blood of bulls and goats could "cover" sins to avoid the death of all concerned, but the sin was still there. How do we know? Because the CONSCIENCE was still burdened. The solution of animal sacrifices was "IMPERFECT" because it did not UNBURDEN the criminal. It saved his life but his conscience was not purged.

And because the sins remained, albeit hidden, man could not approach Jehovah. He (Jehovah) lived behind a veil that was deadly. The High Priest could go in once a year with special sacrifices, special washings and special clothing, but he was always in danger. It is one thing to offend God, but it is another thing totally to touch His holiness. David was spared after Bathsheba, but Uzzah was killed on the spot for touching the Ark. Until Christ died and fulfilled God's holy and righteous nature, sins were covered - but God's People had NO ACCESS to Him. Once the qualified Man Jesus died for our sins and the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2), they way to the Father was opened - and opened so wide that He could now come to dwell IN US based on Christ's REDEMPTION.

Sure…we understand these things. My point, that I did not see mentioned above, is Grace being the ever present mechanism and means by which God deals with mankind and the creation.

Grace and Truth= Christ. Whereever sins are covered, it is solely, by Grace = Christ. 

[Dennis1209]

So far, it seems we all have the same view, describing it differently. The way I view it:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

It seems to be the Lord Himself who established the first animal sacrifice, shedding innocent blood to clothe Adam & Eve. There was a temporary covering for sins until the real and permanent atonement came in Christ Jesus.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Another interesting question I will not state my views on is; why are Jewish animal sacrifices resumed during the millennium when Christ is ruling and reigning on earth?

[Alive]

It is impossible for the blood of bulls……..

It is sin that seperates…..

I am noteven a little convinced animal sacrifices will ever be reinstituted. That makes no sense given the light given in the NT. The True has come, the types are obsolete.

Heb 10 and 11.

[Alive]

My intention in this OP is to point to the ever present Grace of God in dealing with men.

And to get us all to see Grace in the scriptural record A to Z….literally.

:-)

[Marathoner]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

As I think I mentioned a week or two ago, my wife and I have been listening to scripture together per Omega's Bible Reading club. We find it best for us to listen to the entire week's worth at a sitting and discuss as we go as questions may arise, or I get a thought I want to express.

We just wrapped up Numbers and started on Deut. and then Mark looking at Jesus' last day to the Cross.

Anyway, we have really enjoyed seeing all the OT expressing Christ in such detail, so we were discussing all of the sacrificed critters and other offerings that God instituted and how when the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not in rebellion, those things made a fellowship with and the blessings of God--possible.

I quoted Heb. 10.4 to my wife.

Heb. 10:4 (NAS20S) For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Then I asked her if that is true, as it surely is, then how is it that all that blood worked? I then asked her; since it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, by what mechanism or means could Israel be in a right relationship with God and be blessed when they were loyal?

She knew the answer because of course she has listened to me go on before.

:-)

Grace! The only means by which God has dealt with mankind from his creation till now and forever.

All of that pointing to Christ. The Solution.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and goats to take away, to wipe out a single sin...or if you will...law.

What say you?

I'm in agreement. This has been true since the beginning, for the Lord is the one who forgives and justifies. Just as the law could not justify the sinner, neither could sacrifices of animals; God has mercy upon whomever He desires. What is the sacrifice of God? 

A broken and contrite spirit. We find all of this expressed in the Tanakh, just as the Lord declared that He does not dwell in structures made by human hands. He never has and never will. 

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Alive said:

Sure…we understand these things. My point, that I did not see mentioned above, is Grace being the ever present mechanism and means by which God deals with mankind and the creation.

Grace and Truth= Christ. Whereever sins are covered, it is solely, by Grace = Christ. 

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you in that God deals with His creature in Grace. Why I did not say it outright is your use of the word "solely". You are correct, but it is more than semantics to say that the GROUNDS for grace must be BOUGHT. So I rather addressed God's righteousness, which must be satisfied before grace can be administered. And the price .... ? It was VERY HIGH - the life of suffering and constraint, and the death of His beloved Son Jesus.

I agree with you but would have worded it thus; "God basically deals with His creature in Grace when His righteousness is satisfied."

1. In the case of angels there is no grace. The Lake of Fire is guaranteed for all who rebelled
2. In the case of the serpent there is no grace. He must go on his belly and eat dust forever
3. In the case of demons there is no grace. There is a day when their torment begins
4. In the case of the fish there is no grace. The sea is removed from the Renewed Earth
5. In the case of mankind there is grace - but it must bought and then be released by Faith
6. In the case of Israel there is Grace - but it must be bought and then released by Covenant
7. In the case of the earth there is grace - but polluting sin must be met with retribution on Jesus
8. In the case of the harvest there is grace - but it cost Christ's blood to void the cry of Abel's blood
9. In the case of points 1 to 3 there is grace on the creature because bad government is removed by righteousness
    

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Another interesting question I will not state my views on is; why are Jewish animal sacrifices resumed during the millennium when Christ is ruling and reigning on earth?

I will venture a reason.

The blood of bulls and goats serves TWO purposes.

1. It "ATONES" for sins. The Hebrew word which we render "atone" means to "cover". It is first used in Genesis 6 where Noah had to cover the gopher wood of the Ark on both sides with pitch. The wood was still there but was "covered" - out of sight
2. It cleanses the flesh (Heb.9:13).

For a man to deal with God he (i) must have his sin and sins put away, and (ii) he must cleanse his flesh with a means acceptable to God. Up to John Baptist there were TWO peoples on earth - (i) THE Nations, and (ii) THE Nation of Israel. God had nothing to do with THE Nations unless they came to live within Israel's borders. With Israel God DWELT. One of the functions of the Law was to make the Israelite clean so that he could be HOST to God. There were diverse washings for all classes of Israelite, and there were diverse offerings for each of man's failings, but which also cleansed the FLESH.

From Jesus onward, a THIRD People was added to the earth. God took out of the TWO above, by divine birth, THE NEW MAN called "the Church" This New Man, because they embraced Christ, had their sin and sins put away, had the divine life intrinsically, AND WERE WASHED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Take note: There privileges ARE ONLY AVAILABLE FOR THE CHURCH respectively BELIEVERS IN CHRIST. If you were a Gentile what Christ did DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU. If you are an Israelite the sacrifices cannot remove your sin and sins, but they CAN CLEANSE YOUR FLESH.

Now, let us jump to the Millennium. Who is on earth and what is their status? It is important because Zechariah says that everyone must go up to Jerusalem to have audience with Jesus and worship Him ANNUALLY FOR A THOUSAND YEARS (Isa.2:2, Zech.14:16).

1. The Christian OVERCOMERS will be on earth ruling cities (Lk.19:17-19). Their status is sins forgiven and the FLESH CHANGED to a glorious body like Christ's (1st Cor.15:51, Phil.3:21). Accordingly, they are CLEAN.
2. The Israelites will be in TWO GROUPS. (i) All those who ever died will be in RESURRECTION (Ezek.37, Dan.12:2). Their old bodies are dissolved and they have their resurrection bodies. They are CLEAN. (ii) The Remnant of Israel which survive the Great Tribulation (the 144,000 of Rev.7) will still be in their body of FLESH and BLOOD. Since they never believed, they do NOT enjoy the cleansing that we Christians enjoy now, so they will be UN-CLEAN.
3. The Gentiles who survived the Great Tribulation never believed. They still live in  their body of flesh and blood. They are ALL UN-CLEAN.

How then will those who are UN-CLEAN be made CLEAN to have audience with Emmanuel Jesus? They NEVER BELIEVED in Jesus so they are CANNOT be cleansed by Jesus' blood. They are MADE CLEAN BY THE BLOOD OF THE SACRIFICES. I will repeat that for my opponents. The blood of bulls and goats CANNOT TAKE AWAY SIN AND SINS. But the blood of bulls and goats DOES CLEAN THE FLESH. Sins are one thing, and uncleaness is another. Do not mix them.

And thus we find the priests of Israel exercising animal sacrifices in Israel in the Millennium (See closing Chapters of Ezekiel and Luke 22:15-16).

• SIN and SINS are dealt with by the death of Jesus (Jn.1:29; 1st Jn.2:2).
• The blood of Jesus deals with uncleaness IN THE CHRISTIAN ONLY.
• Resurrection deals with uncleaness because the old body is terminated.
• Animal sacrifices deal with those who are unclean and never believed in Jesus