Alex, for $1,000.00 I'll Take Angels

[Dennis1209]

9 hours ago, Starise said:

Thanks Dennis,

I see some comparison in God's earthly creation, for instance many of the birds we see in the tropics don't necessarily need their bright colors. Instead they seem more ornamental. A scientist might disagree by revealing things about the birds that would specify why the color comes in handy, maybe for things like mating. Male peacocks have their feathers to attract female peacocks. In some creatures though men can see no reason for certain characteristics of different creatures. Often a function is involved even when we don't immediately recognize it. God is both utilitarian and creative. Why do men have nipples and why are women the fairer sex? I am not asking for an answer to this question, just food for thought.

In the heavenly realm it seems to me God has taken liberties He didn't take when making beings on earth. While I believe these are probably real creatures a complete explanation of them is probably not possible to put present minds, so the authors can only use terms that make comparisons to things we recognize.

In that other realm wings might not be necessary at all. The laws of physics that apply here don't apply there. This is why I think there must be some other purpose for both the wings and for the multiple faces. Certainly don't look to be utilitarian in any way. I think it's revealing that the seraphim used some of their wings to cover themselves. If there is a utility here it's concealment.

If these visions are really given as a symbolic way to interpret something, admittedly this would make a lot more sense to the common person instead of attempting to explain why a creature has 4 or 6 wings and only uses two to fly.

Even if we prove these are real creatures, I don't see how we can escape some kind of a symbolic statement in their appearance. That statement has so far, gone uninterpreted so far as I know. Maybe someone has attempted it.

I think they are real in that realm. I also think there is significance in their appearance other than utilitarian. No creature needs multiple faces.

A significant reason I post such subjects, I’m not the answer grape; I’m merely a Bible student with one mind and a view and picture of how I interpret everything. I learn a lot from others about things I never considered and thought about, and I’ve admitted I was wrong on something more than once. There are so many exciting and puzzling topics to discuss in scripture; heavenly created beings are one.

When I write or respond to something, it usually causes me to recheck the Bible to ensure I am accurate and quoting correctly. Or I may have to do a detailed study on a subject before I can express my thoughts precisely. Both are being Bereans.

As I previously expressed, I believe the symbology of the Bible was deliberately written so every age and generation would have the concept of the meaning. The 44+ authors of the books of the Bible had no idea of the marvels of technology we live in today. Explaining electricity and what it operates for us today alone would baffle their minds, as visualizing heaven and the throne of God would rise to a greater degree.

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

We see the symbology with wings as eagles; they are not boarding a Boeing 747 naturally. The adverb “as” announces this is symbolic, not climbing on a literal eagle. The eagle seems to represent strength, endurance, and swiftness, and I think the same is implied of the Beasts with the four faces?

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. [emphasis mine].

I maintain that the Lord desired two families and created a spiritual, flesh, and blood family for His glory and purpose. Based on the above verse and elsewhere, I contend that the heavenly host and humans are brothers in Jesus Christ. If that is a good view, then is it not natural to want to know about an unseen family member(s), a brother, and want to learn as much as possible about them?

Edit: It should go without saying, our primary focus is knowing better our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ first and foremost.  

Edited March 28, 2022 by Dennis1209
An addition

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Lets not forget that just because a scroll is legitimized as being written within that 200yrs of Christs life ,death & resurrection if it is pseudepigrapha then without knowing who to attribute those writings how can we know the purpose of them.....even in that day the enemy was busy at work deceiving the children of God,he was a liar from the beginning!

   Its a lot to consider & so "reader be careful,be wise,pray and use the sound mind God Gave us!"

    Back to Angels,lol In reading the dialogue between you & Starise I can only think of what you & I touched on briefly regarding things that Paul was trying to describe in the Book of Revelation.....I wonder if the creature with many faces is a creature at all or something else,I kind of think it is indeed a celestial being but I do take so very much literally ,it is very difficult for me to distinguish the literal from the symbolic(as you say "it is challenging))..... Do I believe some angels have 6 wings,absolutely! Why not,the Bible Says so! 

   Id like to hear what you have to say so far or I feel like I'm rambling,lol

Good afternoon once again Kwik,

Firstly, about the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are not pseudepigraph. It is known who made the copies and hid them to preserve them from the destruction they foresaw, the Essenes. As with everything else we are discussing, there is a lot of mystery and speculation surrounding the Essenes. The texts and fragments found and translated are accurate to our text sources; Bible revisions were made with many of the italics filled in with the correct renderings and words.

Many scholars of today suspect John the Baptist may have been a member of the Essene sect. It is quite a coincidence they disappeared from history immediately after Jesus’ resurrection. The timing coincidence they were discovered just a couple of years before Israel was declared a nation. The accuracy of their calendar and some prophecies not in our canon that came to pass. The Essene people and scrolls are intriguing historically and biblically.

To clarify that, I agree with you, and our Bible is our inspired sole go-to inerrant, infallible word of God. If we rely upon and use anything else, there will be errors. However, using such material can fill in historical information about what the people of the time did, thought, reacted to, and believed.

It is hard to clarify my tone in writing; I do not want it to sound like, “thus sayeth Dennis.” I want my views to be inquiring and engaging, open for discussion with other thoughts. I have learned not to be dogmatic and hardheaded in theology. When you have twelve expert biblical scholars, six of them have 180-degree different theological views on the same subjects, which is right and wrong?

The main points in this topic of angels I wanted views on are what seems to be symbolic and what seems to be literal? The grammar structure of descriptions indicates if it is figurative or literal, with supporting scripture. And that there is no recorded instance where an angel in the flesh and human form appeared to a man having any wings.

The heavenly host creatures described in our Bible appear to be different in appearance and function; Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, Archangels, Cherubim, Seraphim, Beasts, the lying spirit, the Death Angel, and messenger angels that visited Abraham, Daniel, etc.

If angels are part of our heavenly family and brothers? Let me phrase it this way. We have brothers somewhere (related) that we have never seen and know little of; should we try and find out? Would it be natural to wonder about them, what they are doing, what they look like, what they do for a living, etc.?

In closing, just like the angels, I think we are interested, curious, and search for understanding. I believe free will and speculation are attributes that are part of our makeup, and we speculate every moment before our actions.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. [emphasis mine].

I enjoy and appreciate sharing our thoughts and views Kwik!

[kwikphilly]

Hi Again Brother

 Oh no dont worry about sounding like " thus sayith Dennis".... Never happens, not that Ive ever seen!

 Its funny you should compare these celestial beings to a relative we may never had the chance to meet, great way to look at it and " you bet", Id be interested and curious-as Ive always been since I was a little child

Having been raised in a catholic Italian family I grew up with a house full of statues,statues of mary, mary joseph & baby Jesus and of course- angels. In my room was a little statue of my guardian angel( thus sayith my Mom)..... Yes, typical human looking female with long robe, 2 wings & a halo- lol

Nope, never read anything in the Bible about any 2wing human looking angel or anything about angels being female.... It took a lot of debriefing to erase the fiction and really seevthe facts......

 We know we were created a little lower than the angels - does that mean they are unrelated to us like that of the different species of creation we know of here in the physical realm? I believe they only appear to look like us so we would not be scared out of our wits if we saw them in their true form..... I see these beings were created before us and yet the Word Says that we ( humans) were created in Gods Image, so does that leave me to think the heavenly hosts were not.... I ponder this

 I do think the beings in Ezekial are not really symbolic, I think the description is what he saw and could compare it to as best he could, some celestial creature that could possibly be riding in a celestial vehicle( just possible) - faces " like" that of a man so clearly not like us at all..... I dont doubt that these beings are able to take on other forms just like satan can appear as an angel of light....

When Jesus appeared after His Resurrection He was not recognized immediately each time He Appeared, now He Did Tell us we see dimly, darkly like through a glass right now..... So perhaps it is just us that do not have the ability to see clearly when they do manifest into our realm.... Am I making sense

The thing is, I do not think any references to the angelic beings are symbolic-if they were then whst are they symbolizing?

 

[WilliamL]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:30 AM, Dennis1209 said:

As I stated before, angels (ángelos), a specified order of created beings with a job function, mentioned in 283 verses of our Bible, are never said to have wings.

The definition of the word ángelos is messenger. If that messenger is a man, then it does not have wings. If it is an kerub/cherub, then it does, at least as it can appear in its own heavenly realm.

The word is not, as you claim, "a specified order of created beings." The word solely denotes a function (that is, a being given a message to deliver), no matter what type of being it is that exercises that function. Here are two witnesses of the word as applied to men:

Rev. 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the ángelos/angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Matt. 11:10 “For this [John the Baptist] is he of whom it is written:
‘Behold, I send My ángelos/messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.