The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[DeighAnn]

36 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I agree.  Revelation 20:4 bears that out.  Revelation 14:9-11 shows what happens to those who refuse to repent of the mark and image.  It's a common teaching to say that once a person takes the mark and worships the image that their fate is sealed and they base it solely on Revelation 14.  However, the verbs in that passage that are translated "receives" and "worships" are not in the past tense.  They are both in the present active tense and indicate a persistent activity.

Worshiping the man of sin through the mark and the image is idolatry.  According to Jesus, idolatry is a forgivable sin.

• "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."  Matthew 12:31

Blasphemy of the Spirit is the persistent rejection of His conviction in favor of continuing in sin.  That's who Revelation 14:9-11 is describing. 

The seven plagues (trumpets / bowls) are judgments on those who were deceived into taking the mark and worshiping the image.  They are for the purpose of convicting those people of their idolatry that they might repent.  Those of the nations who do repent and stay repented until Jesus returns will inherit the earth.

I AGREE, not every ones fate is sealed with the 1st death, the death of the body.  

BUT every single person on the earth,  when Christ returns, WILL either experience
their 1st death
or their first resurrection. 
but many of those who die that 1st death will also rise at the same time. 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

You guys quote the scriptures that don't actually say he is coming to earth and then claim that scripture says he is coming to earth. LOOK at the passage just quoted. Absolutely no mention of his coming to earth. NONE. Look at it. Jesus' throne in Revelation 20 is in heaven. John is seeing the souls of the beheaded with the throne. Are beheaded souls viewed running around on the planet during the millennium reign? If not then YOU, not me, have a huge inconsistency in the reading of Revelation 20. Same thing proves true in Revelation 19, too. War and judgment on earth, but Jesus is still in heaven. Look it up. 

 

No mention of Jesus coming to earth. 

Mention of his throne in heaven. 

 

 

Yeah, but Josh, we're going to ignore what is actually stated, add our own eschatological view and then insinuate you do not believe in the same Jesus. 

Yeah, okay. You do that. Doesn't change the facts of scripture as written. I am not the one adding to scripture. I am stating the facts of scripture: there isn't actually any mention of his coming to earth in Revelation 20 AND anyone who is standing on what is written will agree with me. 

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

WHO IS RULING AND REIGNING WITH CHRIST?  THE SAINTS. 

WHERE DOES FIRE COME DOWN FROM?  HEAVEN
 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

ARE WE TO BELIEVE THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP TO HEAVEN TO STAND BEFORE GOD?
 

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Agree.  Those who don't heed the many warnings of Jesus set themselves up to be deceived.  Those who take the mark and worship the image clearly align themselves with the man of sin but such an alignment is not irrevocable.

The man of sin claims to be God but the plagues will prove otherwise.  The first four plagues affect creation and show his impotence to do anything about it.  The question is who will see through the fraud and repent and who will persist in idolatry?  At some point, all who are going to repent will have done so but that is very late in the progression of the plagues, just before Jesus returns.

This would include the 144,ooo, yes?

These are those saved in the nick of time, right before the second coming?  

Edited March 30, 2022 by Selah7

[George]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No witness by any Old Testament Jewish Rabbis was provided. No one cannot rebut anything that is not provided. What was asked for was source material beginning with scripture.

Genesis 2:1-3  And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.   And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.  And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He had rested from all His work which God created to make. 

Psa 90:4  For a thousand years in Your sight are as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 

2 Peter 3:⁸ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter just stated -- 1 day is as a 1000 years ... and then pointed to the DAY OF GOD ... a 1000 year day! 

 

[George]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The word "gospel" is not a Hebrew term.

Where does Paul QUOTE FROM ...

Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 

Isa 52:7  How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.” 

Isa 61:1  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 

GOSPEL is simply GOOD NEWS ... 

 

[DeighAnn]

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

[George]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Let also acknowledge the fact no scripture was provided to support the 7k cycle, even though that was requested. 

Sorry ... a 1,000 years as in a DAY ... and the 7 day Creation as expounded by sources as I cites is simply a pattern that we see!  I have now quoted Genesis 1, Psalm 90, and 2 Peter ... the only reference those sources did not quote was 2 Peter, however, I was showing the mindset of Jewish rabbis as it clearly shows its not DISPENSATIONAL thinking that I came to these conclusions, but a simple studying of His Word and studying the issues from the perspective in which it was WRITTEN.

If you never studied WHY Jesus celebrated the Biblical feasts ... and the symbolism behind it all ... YOU'D MISS the appointed times -- HIS APPOINTED SCHEDULE!

Genesis 1:14 - And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, ^H4150 and for days, and years:

Leviticus 23:4 - These are the feasts ^H4150 of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. ^H4150

[George]

Just now, Josheb said:

Honestly, George, if you stood on what is stated and didn't add things to scripture based on 5th, 9th, and 17th century sources we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd be standing on scripture - the whole of it. 

Actually I quoted the Epistle of Barnabas ... which is dated around 100 AD.

So it wasn't a NEW idea ... 

[George]

This is another church father ... Lactanticus (Divine Institutes, Book VII)

Quote

Therefore let the philosophers, who enumerate thousands of ages from the beginning of the world, know that the six thousandth year is not yet completed, and that when this number is completed the consummation must take place, and the condition of human affairs be remodelled for the better, the proof of which must first be related, that the matter itself may be plain. God completed the world and this admirable work of nature in the space of six days, as is contained in the secrets of Holy Scripture, and consecrated the seventh day, on which He had rested from His works. But this is the Sabbath day, which in the language of the Hebrews received its name from the number, whence the seventh is the legitimate and complete number. For there are seven days, by the revolutions of which in order the circles of years are made up; and there are seven stars which do not set, and seven luminaries which are called planets, whose differing and unequal movements are believed to cause the varieties of circumstances and times.

Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years. For the great day of God is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says In Your sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day. And as God laboured during those six days in creating such great works, so His religion and truth must labour during these six thousand years, while wickedness prevails and bears rule. And again, since God, having finished His works, rested the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years; and there must be tranquillity and rest from the labours which the world now has long endured. But how that will come to pass I will explain in its order. We have often said that lesser things and things of small importance are figures and previous shadowings forth of great things; as this day of ours, which is bounded by the rising and the setting of the sun, is a representation of that great day to which the circuit of a thousand years affixes its limits.

 

[George]

@Josheb  Is this a future event?  Or is it symbolic?  

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.