First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[Diaste]

On 4/6/2022 at 6:27 AM, DeighAnn said:

We have two bodies.  God has provided a body for every seed IN both 'dimensions'. One for the world we now SEE and one for the world we DON'T CURRENTLY SEE but soon will be seeing.    

WE are SEED.  No 'seed' is ever without a body.  THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.  Earthen vessel dissolves there is another vessel it is spiritual. 
NO DISEMBODIED 'seeds'.  This applies to all both good and bad. 

I understand that people don't like it, BUT IT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.   

Not only that but spiritual bodies differ from one another.  THEY have different 'glories', God tells us this all over the place.  We will not all  be the same.  Just like we are not all the same here,  we are not all the same there. 


There is the one common salvation, come early in the morning,  come late in the day and the salvation is the same for all, but our deeds do follow us. 


Is that the question you are asking or are you asking about the 'different' bodies the 'seeds' have?  wheat or perhaps some other grain.  Gold vessels of honor all the way down to wood and dishonor.  The glory of one differs from the glory of another.  The dead having spiritual bodies also.  Every man is given in measure. Some are given one thing some are given another.  God loved Jacob hated Esau.  Some are chosen, some are called.  Some are vessels of mercy some are vessels of destruction.  God is simple God is complex and GOD is JUST.  Doesn't matter if we don't know how it works we just trust it does.  

If you read all of 1 Cor 15:35-46 you'll see it's the same body, not two. It's a body sown in death but the same body raised in life. Paul is saying the natural body is the seed, then it dies, then that same body is transformed into the incorruptible body. Paul isn't saying there are two bodies right now for each of us; he's saying the seed becomes what is contained in the seed. When a plant grows from a seed the seed is no longer, it has become a beautiful, useful plant as it was designed. The new body of the plant can't exist without the seed, for the wheat is already in the seed.

If there are two bodies what puts on immortality or incorruption? The dead body would not, would it? The spiritual body, as you say, would already be immortal and incorruptible and would not put on immortality or incorruption as there would be no need. Paul clearly says:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,

If there were two bodies why would the one have to become, or put on, the other? It would not.

For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality" would not be required if there was another body. This isn't the spirit as the spirt is already immortal and imperishable. What puts on immortality and imperishability must of necessity be mortal and perishable. That can only be the body. 

Moreover if there was no resurrection of the dead bodies of believers why is Paul going on here teaching about the resurrection of the dead believers?

Paul makes the point:

"12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. 15Yea, and we are found FALSE witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Paul relates the resurrection of the dead to the resurrection of Christ. That is a resurrection to life. As Jesus was resurrected to life so, Paul teaches here, the dead believers will be resurrected to life. Paul goes on to say our faith is nothing if Christ is not raised. This is not for those who have not heard the Gospel but for born again, blood washed, spirit filled believers of the brethren. 

The other idea this is the spiritual dead being raised in 1 Cor 15 doesn't wash. Paul makes it clear from the first words he is speaking to the saved brethren and dealing with the resurrection of the saved. 

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you read all of 1 Cor 15:35-46 you'll see it's the same body, not two. It's a body sown in death but the same body raised in life. Paul is saying the natural body is the seed, then it dies, then that same body is transformed into the incorruptible body. Paul isn't saying there are two bodies right now for each of us; he's saying the seed becomes what is contained in the seed. When a plant grows from a seed the seed is no longer, it has become a beautiful, useful plant as it was designed. The new body of the plant can't exist without the seed, for the wheat is already in the seed.

If there are two bodies what puts on immortality or incorruption? The dead body would not, would it? The spiritual body, as you say, would already be immortal and incorruptible and would not put on immortality or incorruption as there would be no need. Paul clearly says:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,

If there were two bodies why would the one have to become, or put on, the other? It would not.

For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality" would not be required if there was another body. This isn't the spirit as the spirt is already immortal and imperishable. What puts on immortality and imperishability must of necessity be mortal and perishable. That can only be the body. 

Moreover if there was no resurrection of the dead bodies of believers why is Paul going on here teaching about the resurrection of the dead believers?

Paul makes the point:

"12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. 15Yea, and we are found FALSE witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Paul relates the resurrection of the dead to the resurrection of Christ. That is a resurrection to life. As Jesus was resurrected to life so, Paul teaches here, the dead believers will be resurrected to life. Paul goes on to say our faith is nothing if Christ is not raised. This is not for those who have not heard the Gospel but for born again, blood washed, spirit filled believers of the brethren. 

The other idea this is the spiritual dead being raised in 1 Cor 15 doesn't wash. Paul makes it clear from the first words he is speaking to the saved brethren and dealing with the resurrection of the saved. 

 

 

 

You have paraphrased what D said.

D. gave examples which you did not consider. 

She said we do not need the old body that it is given to the various elements before and after it died.

She stressed the need not to worry about being aged or being changed by some deceased or coming out of an accident disformed or with missing members of your body or dieing without your own heart or other vital parts and do not be afraid of fire which can destroy the body but it cannot destroy the real self, or if it happen to die at sea, as who will bury you and where you will be buried.

And this is why because what is waiting for you and what the Lord has for you it will surprised you. 

That time you will be given another body which has nothing to do with the old, besides having the same image as the old and having the same memories and the same resemblance and identity and if someone had died old and deformed it will not bring this into the new, for the new it will look totally new and healthy and gorgeous and youthful as when is someone in full maturity and complete and radiating health.

Even for those who were not borned complete and were borned deformed they will receive their new body in  completeness. 

The man in the Synagogue received his new hand while he was still alive, if we may say that, even though he was borned that way. 

And the same for the one who was born blind without formed eyes. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Those receiving rewards have not already been judged..These rewards were given out at the sounding of the 7th trumpet...not before it sounded...

he did not say "Before the 7th trumpet is the time that he gives reward to his servants the prophets and the the saints and them that fear his name...

It is absolutely false to say 

So, you believe it is the WRATH OF GOD that gives rewards to the servant? 

I've just never thought of GODS WRATH that way before.  I have given it some thought and decided, I can't go there and  will remain with my understanding as it is.  I have this funny thing about  'common sense' taking a lead in the way of dividing the words of God.  If it doesn't make 'sense' to me, I just can't believe it is of God.


AND CAME THE WRATH OF YOU..... TO GIVE REWARD TO THE SERVANT..., I just can't. This just makes no sense to me.  

And the nations were enraged and came the wrath of You and the time for the dead to be judged

and to give the reward to the servants of  You, the prophets and to the saints and to those fearing the name of You the small and the great

and to destroy those who are destroying the earth


SO I went to the GREEK and typed it all out, cause I type real slow and find better understanding when I do....

11:15  And the seventh angel sounded [his] trumpet and there were voices great in heaven saying Has become the kingdom of the world of the Lord of us and of the Christ of Him, and will reign to the ages of the ages. 

16  And the twenty four elders before God sitting on the thrones of them fell upon the faces of them and worshiped God

saying

We give thanks to You Lord God Almighty,
the [One] being, and who was and is coming
that You have taken the power of You great,
and have begun to reign
And the nations were enraged  and came the wrath of You
and the time for the dead to be judged,  
and to give the reward to the servants of You, the prophets and to the saints,
and to those fearing the name of You the small and the great
and to destroy those who are destroying the earth

And was opened the temple of God in heaven,
and was seen the ark of the covenant of Him in the temple of Him
And there were flashes of lightning and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake and hail great
 

I DO SEE THE WORDS WRITTEN like you say, just not divided the same as you can see.

We just aren't deriving the same meaning from what is written. 

I believe the WRATH IS FOR THE DEAD not the rewards.  

So here we are YET AGAIN. I'm not sure how many times we have covered this,  but I think we can both say we have given our reasons and  are being as clear as could be.  I don't think another few times would help do you?    If so, let's do it again till you feel as I do.  

We will absolutely find out the truth sure enough.  

AND YES HE DID SAY 7TH TRUMP FOR REWARDS TO BE GIVEN.  YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.  THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. 

You'll have to forgive me as I feel like I am rewarded everyday of my life already.  And as I believe we are resurrected and go to heaven immediately in glory and there is NO PART of ME DEAD in the earth to return for, I believe there will be rewards when I die should  that take place before that 7th trump.  

AGAIN, YOU ARE CORRECT.  THAT IS HOW IT IS WRITTEN RIGHT THERE

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You have paraphrased what D said.

D. gave examples which you did not consider. 

She said we do not need the old body that it is given to the various elements before and after it died.

She stressed the need not to worry about being aged or being changed by some deceased or coming out of an accident disformed or with missing members of your body or dieing without your own heart or other vital parts and do not be afraid of fire which can destroy the body but it cannot destroy the real self.

And this is why because what is waiting for you and what the Lord has for you it will surprised you. 

That time you will be cloth with another body which has nothing to do with the old, besides having the same image as the old and having the same memories and the same resemblance and identity and if someone had died old and deformed it will not bring this into the new, for the new it will look totally new and healthy and gorgeous and youthful as when is someone in full maturity and complete and radiating health.

Even for those who were not borned complete and were borned deformed they will receive their new body in  completeness. 

The man in the Synagogue received his new hand while he was still alive, if we may say that, even though he was borned that way. 

And the same for the one who was burn blind without formed eyes. 

Maybe. But the conclusions differ. I'm of the opinion of scripture that we get our bodies just in renewed, glorified state and immortal. Same bodies just new and never again to grow old and perish. 

Jesus had the same body at His resurrection as the disciples, and others, not only recognized Him but the nails holes were still visible. That should be the end of the debate.

 

[DeighAnn]

3 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You have paraphrased what D said.

D. gave examples which you did not consider. 

She said we do not need the old body that it is given to the various elements before and after it died.

She stressed the need not to worry about being aged or being changed by some deceased or coming out of an accident disformed or with missing members of your body or dieing without your own heart or other vital parts and do not be afraid of fire which can destroy the body but it cannot destroy the real self.

And this is why because what is waiting for you and what the Lord has for you it will surprised you. 

That time you will be cloth with another body which has nothing to do with the old, besides having the same image as the old and having the same memories and the same resemblance and identity and if someone had died old and deformed it will not bring this into the new, for the new it will look totally new and healthy and gorgeous and youthful as when is someone in full maturity and complete and radiating health.

Even for those who were not borned complete and were borned deformed they will receive their new body in  completeness. 

The man in the Synagogue received his new hand while he was still alive, if we may say that, even though he was borned that way. 

And the same for the one who was burn blind without formed eyes. 

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Maybe. But the conclusions differ. I'm of the opinion of scripture that we get our bodies just in renewed, glorified state and immortal. Same bodies just new and never again to grow old and perish. 

Jesus had the same body at His resurrection as the disciples, and others, not only recognized Him but the nails holes were still visible. That should be the end of the debate.

 

I'll tell you what I told someone else

Take that dead plant along with the seed it produced and put it in the ground. 

Speed the process up to the twinkling of an eye.  

THE SEED becomes a NEW plant, the old dead plant stays dead decays decomposes, and goes back to the dust of the earth  IT NEVER  RISES UP AGAIN

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Maybe. But the conclusions differ. I'm of the opinion of scripture that we get our bodies just in renewed, glorified state and immortal. Same bodies just new and never again to grow old and perish. 

Jesus had the same body at His resurrection as the disciples, and others, not only recognized Him but the nails holes were still visible. That should be the end of the debate.

 

Thank you for the polite response and thank you for giving some of the reasons for your statements. 

I appreciate that more than a lot of other things.

What I need to do is to look into your second paragraph that is about Jesus Christ just right after his resurrection and the comments that followed.  

There is one more thing, in my previous post I have stressed the point that we will mantain our original image of how we will looked like with our New Body from the Lord after we die and while our earthly body is still decaying or they have collected the ashes of it in a jar or while is still devoured by some wild beast.

We will already have our glorious NEW BODY from the Lord and we will bore the image of our earthly looks and be recognized and recognized others having our memories. We do not loose our identities. We are not given a new soul, like being someone we were never before.  only we are given the NEW BODY, which it does have the image of the old but not n the stage when we died.

We die sick and deformed, whether born that way or not but that stage of being, those looked are not carried are printed into the NEW BODY.

But rather a complete and healthy look, that makes someone look a lot younger than the way one looked when he died.

We do not need our earthly brains, our memories are in our soul never lost. We will know who we are and how we look like and we can recognize others, our identities are not lost without the old body, which is being decay for a polite word, and us in our NEW BODY a gift from the Lord.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[transmogrified]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So, you believe it is the WRATH OF GOD that gives rewards to the servant? 

No...his wrath is reserved for his enemies...

Nahum 1:2 'The Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries, (not his saints) and he reserves wrath for his enemies...(not his saints) 

Here is what happens at the 7th Trumpet:

1) The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ

Note: This happens at the end of the age...not when each person dies

2) It is the time of the dead that they should be judged...

Note: The dead consist of both the righteous and the wicked...both are resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet. This does not mean the saints are condemned to the second death, it means the saints, the prophets, and those who feared his name who were faithful until death are now being resurrected and rewarded. They are in a state of sleeping and now is the time when they will awake and be judged...there is no negative impact about someone going to sleep and waking up...it will happen to both the righteous and the wicked...it is the judgement that happens AFTER they awake that determines their fate.

So compare notes with Paul in Romans 2:5- 16

5) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasureth  up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God."

Note: So he mentions 'the day of wrath 'and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. It is called both 'the day of wrath' and also the revelation of the righteous judgment of God...' It is not just the day of wrath, but also is the righteous judgment of God...and then he enumerates how this works:

6) "Who will render to every man according to his deeds...'

Note: So even though it is called the day of wrath he is going to render to every man, both good and bad, according to his deeds.

7) "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory, honor and immortality, eternal life..."

Note: So we see in the above verse, he is not rewarding those that serve him in his wrath...but it is his righteous judgment that is rendering eternal life to those who serve him

8) "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile; But glory honor and peace to every man that works good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile..'

So on this day of judgment God dispenses his vengeance on his enemies and rewards his saints...It is called God's judgment and he is rendering to every man according to his deeds...This is the same judgement day as that being described at the 7th Trumpet...How do we know this? Verse 16  shows when all the above takes place:

16) "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.."

When is this day? It says when it is at the 7th Trumpet...what does it say? It says at the 7th trumpet is the "TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED.'

This is the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God Paul was just talking about when he renders judgment on both the wicked and the righteous.

This is the very same thing Jesus says in Revelation, when he says Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his deeds shall be...' 

The 7th Trumpet is when Jesus comes...it is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord...it is the last day...

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I've just never thought of GODS WRATH that way before.  I have given it some thought and decided, I can't go there and  will remain with my understanding as it is.  I have this funny thing about  'common sense' taking a lead in the way of dividing the words of God.  If it doesn't make 'sense' to me, I just can't believe it is of God.

It is not God's wrath being executed on his saints and the prophets...it is his JUDGMENT...We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ...For what? It says that 'Every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad...'

The error is in thinking it is God's wrath giving rewards to his saints...No. There are two things there:

1) The nations were angry and thy wrath is come...(that is one thing)

2) And the time of the dead that they should be judged...(this is the day of judgment Paul was talking about where both good and bad are judged...judgment means that God judges some people righteous and some people wicked...)

3) And that thou shouldest give reward to thy servants the prophets, and the saints, and them that fear thy name, both small and great..(This is showing God judging and rewarding the righteous)

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So, you believe it is the WRATH OF GOD that gives rewards to the servant? 

NO. It is not the wrath of God giving rewards to his saints....God's wrath in not on his saints...why would he be mad at rewarding his saints for faithfully serving him? This is absurd, and the scripture is not saying this...this is a straw man argument so it can be knocked down claiming something about God's word doesn't make sense...of course it doesn't make sense that God would be angry to reward his saints, and that is NOT what he is saying. What he is saying is at the 7th Trumpet the dead will be judged and he will reward both the righteous and the wicked.. 

There is nothing here about God being angry with his saints, so  go back to what it really is saying..

What it IS saying is that the saints are being rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...not at the time each saint died...ALL the saints were rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...notice it did not say 'But Each saint and prophet and those that feared his name had already been rewarded before the 7th trumpet sounded..." NO. That is what you were saying...the scripture does not say that..it says at the 7th Trumpet the saints were rewarded, which means they WERE NOT rewarded before the 7th Trumpet...Why would he say at this time they were rewarded if they had already been rewarded before...? That is non sense.

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I believe the WRATH IS FOR THE DEAD not the rewards.  

Death is:

1) The spirit leaves ones body

2) The second death, tormented day and night forever

Because a righteous person's spirit leaves their body does not make God angry with them...but according to the scriptures THEY ARE DEAD. 

You can't have it both ways...God's wrath is not on saints whose spirits have left their bodies....its going to happen to you someday...God is not angry at people because their spirit leaves their body...God will be angry with the wicked FOR THEIR DEEDS, not because they died.

Believing God's wrath is for the dead does not mean the Bible says it...At the 7th trumpet God will reward his saints...his prophets ....and them that fear his name...both small and great...these are people whose spirit has left their bodies and now they are being resurrected and rewarded...there are other people who are wicked whose spirit has left their bodies and now they are also being resurrected and rewarded...the wrath is on the wicked...not on his saints.

Believing that God's wrath in on the wicked is a distraction to keep you from seeing when God will reward the saints, that it is not something that God does for each individual as they die, but happens to all at the 7th trumpet...it is this belief that is contrary to what Paul said...

We will all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye...at the last trump...You do not get a glorified body at the time you die, you will get it at the resurrection.

Paul also says this 'I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge shall give me at that day; (Not 'when I die) and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

It is plain to see he is saying everyone will be rewarded at the same time 'AT THAT DAY' (singular day, not at the time of each persons death)

Here is another one for receiving your immortal body:

""For we know not what we shall be, but we know that WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is."

When did John say we will be like him? Did he say 'We know that WHEN WE DIE, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is? No he did not...He said WHEN HE APPEARS we will be like him...and it will happen to everyone collectively, not as each person dies..

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

8 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

No...his wrath is reserved for his enemies...

Nahum 1:2 'The Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries, (not his saints) and he reserves wrath for his enemies...(not his saints) 

Here is what happens at the 7th Trumpet:

1) The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ

Note: This happens at the end of the age...not when each person dies

2) It is the time of the dead that they should be judged...

Note: The dead consist of both the righteous and the wicked...both are resurrected and judged at the 7th Trumpet. This does not mean the saints are condemned to the second death, it means the saints, the prophets, and those who feared his name who were faithful until death are now being resurrected and rewarded. They are in a state of sleeping and now is the time when they will awake and be judged...there is no negative impact about someone going to sleep and waking up...it will happen to both the righteous and the wicked...it is the judgement that happens AFTER they awake that determines their fate.

So compare notes with Paul in Romans 2:5- 16

5) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasureth  up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God."

Note: So he mentions 'the day of wrath 'and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. It is called both 'the day of wrath' and also the revelation of the righteous judgment of God...' It is not just the day of wrath, but also is the righteous judgment of God...and then he enumerates how this works:

6) "Who will render to every man according to his deeds...'

Note: So even though it is called the day of wrath he is going to render to every man, both good and bad, according to his deeds.

7) "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory, honor and immortality, eternal life..."

Note: So we see in the above verse, he is not rewarding those that serve him in his wrath...but it is his righteous judgment that is rendering eternal life to those who serve him

8) "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile; But glory honor and peace to every man that works good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile..'

So on this day of judgment God dispenses his vengeance on his enemies and rewards his saints...It is called God's judgment and he is rendering to every man according to his deeds...This is the same judgement day as that being described at the 7th Trumpet...How do we know this? Verse 16  shows when all the above takes place:

16) "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.."

When is this day? It says when it is at the 7th Trumpet...what does it say? It says at the 7th trumpet is the "TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED.'

This is the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God Paul was just talking about when he renders judgment on both the wicked and the righteous.

This is the very same thing Jesus says in Revelation, when he says Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his deeds shall be...' 

The 7th Trumpet is when Jesus comes...it is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord...it is the last day...

It is not God's wrath being executed on his saints and the prophets...it is his JUDGMENT...We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ...For what? It says that 'Every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad...'

The error is in thinking it is God's wrath giving rewards to his saints...No. There are two things there:

1) The nations were angry and thy wrath is come...(that is one thing)

2) And the time of the dead that they should be judged...(this is the day of judgment Paul was talking about where both good and bad are judged...judgment means that God judges some people righteous and some people wicked...)

3) And that thou shouldest give reward to thy servants the prophets, and the saints, and them that fear thy name, both small and great..(This is showing God judging and rewarding the righteous)

NO. It is not the wrath of God giving rewards to his saints....God's wrath in not on his saints...why would he be mad at rewarding his saints for faithfully serving him? This is absurd, and the scripture is not saying this...this is a straw man argument so it can be knocked down claiming something about God's word doesn't make sense...of course it doesn't make sense that God would be angry to reward his saints, and that is NOT what he is saying. What he is saying is at the 7th Trumpet the dead will be judged and he will reward both the righteous and the wicked.. 

There is nothing here about God being angry with his saints, so  go back to what it really is saying..

What it IS saying is that the saints are being rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...not at the time each saint died...ALL the saints were rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...notice it did not say 'But Each saint and prophet and those that feared his name had already been rewarded before the 7th trumpet sounded..." NO. That is what you were saying...the scripture does not say that..it says at the 7th Trumpet the saints were rewarded, which means they WERE NOT rewarded before the 7th Trumpet...Why would he say at this time they were rewarded if they had already been rewarded before...? That is non sense.

Death is:

1) The spirit leaves ones body

2) The second death, tormented day and night forever

Because a righteous person's spirit leaves their body does not make God angry with them...but according to the scriptures THEY ARE DEAD. 

You can't have it both ways...God's wrath is not on saints whose spirits have left their bodies....its going to happen to you someday...God is not angry at people because their spirit leaves their body...God will be angry with the wicked FOR THEIR DEEDS, not because they died.

Believing God's wrath is for the dead does not mean the Bible says it...At the 7th trumpet God will reward his saints...his prophets ....and them that fear his name...both small and great...these are people whose spirit has left their bodies and now they are being resurrected and rewarded...there are other people who are wicked whose spirit has left their bodies and now they are also being resurrected and rewarded...the wrath is on the wicked...not on his saints.

Believing that God's wrath in on the wicked is a distraction to keep you from seeing when God will reward the saints, that it is not something that God does for each individual as they die, but happens to all at the 7th trumpet...it is this belief that is contrary to what Paul said...

We will all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye...at the last trump...You do not get a glorified body at the time you die, you will get it at the resurrection.

Paul also says this 'I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge shall give me at that day; (Not 'when I die) and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

It is plain to see he is saying everyone will be rewarded at the same time 'AT THAT DAY' (singular day, not at the time of each persons death)

Here is another one for receiving your immortal body:

""For we know not what we shall be, but we know that WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is."

When did John say we will be like him? Did he say 'We know that WHEN WE DIE, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is? No he did not...He said WHEN HE APPEARS we will be like him...and it will happen to everyone collectively, not as each person dies..

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

I am not sure what you want to advance.

And I have to asked you a question. 

Are you advocating according to the following word from Revelation ch.1, v.4,5,6 NIV 

4. Grace and peace to you(J) from him who is, and who was, and who is to come,(K) and from the seven spirits[a](L) before his throne,

 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,(M) the firstborn from the dead,(N) and the ruler of the kings of the earth.(O)

To him who loves us(P) and has freed us from our sins by his blood,(Q) 

6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests(R) to serve his God and Father(S)—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen

[DeighAnn]

17 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The error is in thinking it is God's wrath giving rewards to his saints...No. There are two things there:

This is  NOT MY THINKING.  It is a question I asked OF YOU because of what you were saying about the dead.  

Please be careful with the STATEMENTS AND QUESTIONS you ask of me so THEY THEMSELVES DON'T MAKE IT SOUND LIKE I BELIEVE THINGS I DON'T.  I would really appreciate it.  

I need to get this settled first if you can.  
 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS VERSE WORKS FOR YOU. 

WHERE IT GOES FROM ONE people to the other, who the people are, and when it is,   and where they come from. 


Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.