First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[Selah7]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

This is tantamount to saying no one dies. Which would be a really big problem IF I WAS the one saying it.    

Are you living right now?

Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ right now?  


John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.



Believest thou this?

Let’s read it in context:

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

- John 11:24-26 (KJV)

Of course the physical body will die.  Jesus is saying that if you’re a CHRISTIAN, your soul will never die.  Regardless of what happens to the flesh body, the soul continues to live.  

Selah.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

His spirit returned to God who gave it, so he is with Christ right now...the spirit returns to God, but the body of Peter stayed in the dust of the earth..Peters dust did not go to heaven, Peters spirit went to heaven, the body of Peter returned to the dust from whence it came...the body itself will not be changed until the Last Trump sounds...at the last trump the dust of Peter will be changed into immortality and this changed body will ascend up to heaven at the resurrection...just like you see the bodies of the two witnesses rise up into heaven, so will the bodies of all those who are dead in Christ rise up to heaven...the two witnesses shows their bodies did not ascend up to heaven at the point of death, for people saw them lying in the streets for 3.5 days...at the last trumpet their bodies did ascend up and people saw them go up into heaven..their bodies were in the street, their spirit had returned to God who gave it, at the last trumpet there was a voice that said 'come up hither...' Why did it say for them to come up hither if they already had an immortal body in heaven..?' They would have already been up there..but they weren't so God called them up there and at that point the Spirit of life from God entered them...why did it enter them at that point if they already had their immortal bodies in heaven? Because they did not already have an immortal body in heaven...no one has one until the lat trumpet sounds and we are changed...

1 Corinth 15 deals SPECIFICALLY with what happens when we die BUT instead of taking that truth and building upon that foundation

use what does or does not happen with the two witnesses, as the foundation to build upon.

and again, instead of going to 1 Corinth 15 for the timing of it all, chose to use the OLD TESTAMENT belief of a 'last day' resurrection (which already happened) and use that as another foundation to build upon

or choose to SKIP over the whole chapter and instead go to 'the mystery' set at the end that speaks to the day He returns  and set that as the foundation. 

instead of BUILDING UPON THE FOUNDATIONS LAID for the specific subjects, random events have become the foundations and then are used to argue by saying IT IS WRITTEN even though every step of the way is IN CONFLICT with the actual foundation laid.  

WHAT IS WRITTEN 

1.  EVERY SEED is given a body 

2.  The SAVED never die

Those who never perish/never die/never sleep, AREN'T PERISHED, AREN'T DEAD AND AREN'T SLEEPING NOW. It is only the EMPTY HOUSE  they moved out of , that is buried in the earth, going back to dust.  It was a good and glorious house, for the partaking of flesh and blood,  but that purpose has ended,  and now they return to God in a much better house, as the old house returns to dust.  

When does someone who has been SAVED actually die? 
When they are BORN AGAIN. 

Once we have been BORN AGAIN,  THERE IS NO MORE DEATH for us.
 
WHEN WE ARE BAPTIZED we go down into the water, THAT IS OUR GOING INTO THE GRAVE as Christ did.

WHEN WE COME UP OUT OF THE WATER, THAT IS OUR BEING BORN AGAIN, BORN FROM ABOVE AND ONCE WE ARE BORN AGAIN, OUR ETERNAL LIFE HAS BEGUN. 

Nothing stops or delays or interferes with that (except maybe ourselves)

ETERNAL LIFE DOESN'T START WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, IT STARTS WHEN WE COME TO FAITH AND BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR AND RECEIVE THE GIFT OF SALVATION.  
 

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

He is talking to believers...those that died before this time are still waiting for the resurrection...it is straightforward 'Christ was the first fruits...afterward they that are Christs at his coming..' What is he talking about? He is talking about the resurrection, and when those that belong to Christ will be resurrected...they are not resurrected at the point of death...they are resurrected at his coming...which is still future.

AGAIN, you have those WHO NEVER DIE  -    DEAD

and not only dead,   BUT DEAD FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.  

YOU CAN KEEP PUSHING ALL THIS OTHER STUFF BUT WE KNOW IT CAN'T BE TRUTH,  BECAUSE YOU HAVE THOSE THAT NEVER DIE AS BEING DEAD

NO DIFFERENT THAN THE UNSAVED ARE DEAD 

DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE CHRIST WHEN HE SAYS

THOSE WHO ARE LIVING AND BELIEVE IN HIM NEVER DIE? 

yes or no? 
Do you believe they never die or don't you? 

If you say YES then HOW CAN THEY BE THE DEAD WHO RISE WHEN HE RETURNS?  


ALSO, 

you COMPLETELY SKIPPED OVER THIS RESURRECTION

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Who was 'them that slept'?   The 'dead/sleeping/ in the grave/under the law. 

When the graves of 'them that slept' were opened SOME rose from the graves and were  seen walking around, but it was enough to PROVE that Christ was the Son of God, He was the One they had been waiting for, He did defeat death, the dead did rise, and more importantly for this topic of discussion THE LAST DAY HAD COME, the Old Covenant replaced by the new. AND ALL WHO HAD BELIEVED WHAT HE HAD PREACED RESURRECTED

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


AND THEN YOU SKIPPED PAST THESE MILLIONS OF RESURRECTIONS

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order:
Christ, the firstfruits,  afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS 
OF THEM THAT SLEPT     End of Old Testament
EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER  Beginning of New Testament 'NEVER SHALL DIE' 
AT HIS COMING  The alive and remaining  



AND THEN DIDN'T COUNT THIS ONE


1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, 
THE DEAD STAND AT GWTJ and some of them are FOUND IN THE BOOK OF LIFE

when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The saints are rewarded at the 7th Trump...'it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and thou shouldest give reward to thy servants the prophets, the saints, and them that fear thy name, both small and great..'

I don't know what you mean here but what I do know is the whole world will be deceived and the time had to be shortened or else no flesh would have been saved and EVEN GODS ELECT would have been deceived

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

THOSE WHO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST ARE JUDGED DEAD 
and the dead rise first

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;

THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED and receiving their new bodies and their immortality 


and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Let’s read it in context:

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

- John 11:24-26 (KJV)

Of course the physical body will die.  Jesus is saying that if you’re a CHRISTIAN, your soul will never die.  Regardless of what happens to the flesh body, the soul continues to live.  

Selah.

Hello Selah, thank you for your contribution.

Yes Jesus was not talking about our physical death, certainly no.

He had to die himself. 

It is appointed to man to die first and after that to be judged. I narrow the Judgement to the primary one which is the Judgment according to the faith in Jesus Christ.

As simple as that, have someone died with the faith of Jesus Christ in his heart? If yes then he is taken to Heaven. 

And why did I say that is simple as that.

Because anyone who believes in Jesus Christ he is not in his sins.

In other words he is free from his sins. 

Let's make it more clear, he is in the Life of the blood of Jesus Christ.  

Adam was in right standing towards God, from the time of his Creation till the time of his first disobedience. 

Adam had to mantain his right standing towards God with his perfect obedience towards him.  

With his first disobedience Adam is not in right standing towards God, in other words he died. This is the death for not being in right standing towards God. 

Jesus Christ when he said "anyone who believes in me NEVER DIES", in John 11: 24-26, and some other times he said the same thing in times before the Cross knowing that he was the Lamb of God to be Slain and to shed the blood of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of the sins of many, because not everyone will believe and have his sins forgiven in his blood. 

This is it, the forgiveness of our sins in Jesus Christ blood makes us righteous towards God.

Adam was not under the blood of Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ had not died yet, and how can he be Crucified and without being born? And how can he be born if Mary was not born and be of a childbearing age...the relevance is that the forgiveness of sis in the blood of Jesus Christ it was not offered to Adam. So Adam is without the blood and he lost his righteous standing towards God.

(and there are other things too. Adam was earthly, he was subject to gravity...he was stuck in the surface of the earth...)

But we are in the blood of Jesus Christ and if we disobey God's commands towards to us, we are still in the Life of the blood of Jesus Christ. 

WE REMAIN RIGHTEOUS TOWARDS GOD BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. 

WE NEVER DIE, 

Like Adam died the moment when he disobeyed God, the moment he lost his right standing towards God. 

 

John 11:24-26 

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. 

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinth 15 deals SPECIFICALLY with what happens when we die

No, it deals with what happens to us at the resurrection...there is nothing in 1 Corinthians that says when believers die they get an immortal body at that very moment. Yes we will get an immortal body but it will not happen till the last day...this is the error...of course we have to die before we get resurrected...look at what the error in 1 Corinthians was...What was it?

'How say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?...Look at the way he is describing this...

"For if THE DEAD rise not, then is not Christ raised...and if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain...ye are yet in your sins...Then they also which have fallen asleep in Christ are perished.."

When he said 'if the dead rise not,' he is not saying the old testament saints had already been resurrected...he is saying 'IF they don't rise (in the future) then neither did Christ rise and we are all lost. 

And when he says 'then they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished...' he is not saying they have already been resurrected...he is saying if Christ did not rise from the dead then neither will anyone else and we are all lost. 

Ok so going on from there he says 'But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept...' 

He is not saying here these believers who had died resurrected with Christ...it says Christ is the first fruits...not Christ and some saints...' This is the error...Christ alone was resurrected...what does he then say again?

"Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming..'

This is not his FIRST coming at Bethlehem...this is the SECOND coming to the Mt. of Olives...Paul is not referring to Christ's first coming...it would make no sense at all to say it this way...Christ was the first that would rise from the dead, and AFTERWARD they they that are Christ's at his COMING?' His first coming was at Bethlehem.. His resurrection took place after he had died...he was not resurrected at his coming, he was resurrected after he died so when Paul says Christ the first fruits and AFTERWARD those that are Christ's at his 'coming' he is not saying those that are Christ's at his 'going.' The coming Paul was talking about is still future...he came at Bethlehem , he did not come when he ascended up..he was taken up from where he was...he was on the earth, then he was taken to heaven...this was not his coming...there were no saints at that 'coming' because for one thing it was never a coming to start with, so Paul is not referring to his ascension as being his coming...so when Paul says 'they that are Christ's at his coming, he is in no way referring to Christ's ascension into heaven, but when he really does come, which is at the last day.

Look at how the angel said it..."This same Jesus who was taken up from you shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go away into heaven...'

So he was TAKEN UP from us and ascended into heaven...this is not a 'coming,' this is him 'going' away to heaven...he later 'comes again' in like manner...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

No, it deals with what happens to us at the resurrection...there is nothing in 1 Corinthians that says when believers die they get an immortal body at that very moment. Yes we will get an immortal body but it will not happen till the last day...this is the error...of course we have to die before we get resurrected...look at what the error in 1 Corinthians was...What was it?

So it is written 2 bodies but you have managed to make it 3.  

This one
The one we rise in 
AND NOW ANOTHER ONE WE GET WHEN WE COME BACK.  

Now that's a NEW TWIST.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

He is not saying here these believers who had died resurrected with Christ...it says Christ is the first fruits...not Christ and some saints...' This is the error...Christ alone was resurrected...what does he then say again?

So you don't believe we never die,  and now you don't believe Christ was the firstfruits of them who slept.  You don't believe the graves were opened and saints were seen walking around. From now on I am going to reply with Scripture only.  

Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Isaiah 26:11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

Isaiah 26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

Isaiah 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Isaiah 26:15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

Isaiah 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

Isaiah 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Edited April 12, 2022 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

..he is saying 'IF they don't rise (in the future) then neither did Christ rise and we are all lost. 

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Hath God said IN THE FUTURE?

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

THOSE WHO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST ARE JUDGED DEAD 
and the dead rise first

Completely wrong...The dead are all the dead who lie in the graves...both righteous and wicked...Jesus said the hour comes when all that are in the graves shall come forth...some to life and some to condemnation...some are just and some are  unjust...some are sheep and some are goat...some are wheat and some are tares....some are good fish and some are bad fish...

Jesus was not wrong...he said there would be some people IN THE GRAVES who would come forth unto eternal life...you absolutely deny any believer would be there, but they are anyway...Daniel said the same thing...'multitudes sleeping the dust of the earth shall awake, some to life and some to condemnation..' You absolutely deny any believer would be there but they are there anyway. 

The version you would like it to say is 'The hour comes when all those in the graves will come forth...all of them will be condemned because they are wicked.' You would like it to say 'Multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awake...all of them to condemnation because only wicked people would be in the dust of the earth." But it doesn't say that. The bodies of both the wicked and the righteous are in the earth and will remain there until the resurrection..

This is how the idea is put forth that only those who take the mark of the beast are judged dead...and the statement that the dead rise first is completely wrong...where that phrase came from was pertaining to the dead in Christ rising first...not the wicked dead...

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;

THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED and receiving their new bodies and their immortality 

This is just the opposite of what Paul said...the living saints and the dead saints are all changed at the same time...not the living all together at the last trump and the dead changed individually as each one dies...this is absolutely contrary to what Paul said...he did not say 'I show you a mystery, the living will be changed collectively at the last trump, but the believers who have died before will have already been changed when they died..." Nobody's Bible says that...What it does say is that both the living and the dead believers will all be changed collectively in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...' You have gone part way and said the living will be changed at the last trump, but those that sleep in Jesus will also be changed at the same last trump as the living. 

This is the crux of the matter: Paul showed us the mystery and it has three criteria that has to be fulfilled...it is like a keyway that opens up the lock...all the little groves and notches have to be placed exactly right or the lock will not open up...here are the three criteria:

1) ALL will be changed collectively...not some at one time and some at another time

2) It will take place for the living and the dead in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye..

3) It will take place at the last trump...not before the last trump

 This scripture that plainly states the errors  is cast off as being some mystery that can not be understood...there is no mystery...he shows us the mystery...it was a mystery before but now it is not...it is revealed...its something that can be totally understood...all one has to do is believe it.